NathanBookham
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:18 am

Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:31 pm

If the foundation are going to make a revision, here are some much needed features that could be implemented. These are not stupid ideas that the foundation wouldn't do (such as a processor that is 4x faster) because they are too expensive.
  • Ditch the MicroUSB power connector and replace with a barrel jack and regulator (similar to the arduino) so you can power it with 7-12v of power. This would mean that there would be less power supply issues. You could also run it off a 9v battery or AA's easily.
  • Female GPIO header - less risk of shorting and allows many components to just be plugged in.
  • POE (Power over ethernet) would be handy and reduce the number of cables needed for a headless server. (This could be expensive, but would be nice to have)
  • As well as the Camera and (hopefully) the LCD, other official add ons could be made such as a Wifi, bluetooth or Xbee addon. This would mean that they should work without any issues and would be officially supported.
  • It would also be very helpful to have some analog-in ports connected to an A/D converter.
This account is now inactive.
I am now known as 'InverseSandwich'

User avatar
meltwater
Posts: 1015
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:38 am

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:48 pm

Most of the above are likely to be a later version of the Raspberry Pi, as most will require change of SoC, or a big change to the board size/cost.
- Female header, while better would make other 3rd party add-ons not fit (without additional adapters).
- Barrel connector would be less flexible. Nothing to stop you using a regulator to provide your own 5V through the GPIO pins or micro USB.
- POE (would be nice but regulator isn't available on-board). Again, you could probably make your own add-on to do it.
- Analog-In (simply isn't on the SoC as far as I am aware). But available by adding via SPI/I2C.

My vote would go for:
- metal Sd-card slot.
- replacing the 3.3V linear regulator with a Switchmode one would provide a good power saving, if space/cost possible.
- at a push, fit a button and led which are available for beginners to play with.
______________
http://www.themagpi.com/
A Magazine for Raspberry Pi Users
Read Online or Download for Free.

My new book: goo.gl/dmVtsc

Meltwater's Pi Hardware - pihardware.com

Like the MagPi? @TheMagP1 @TheMagPiTeam

User avatar
MattHawkinsUK
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:48 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:51 pm

Ditch the MicroUSB power connector
Disagree. Mobile phone chargers are easy to get and far better for kids. Yes I would like to feed a range of voltages into my Pi's but this has no educational value. £5 UBEC off eBay and the job is done.

Female GPIO header
Disagree. No point changing it now given the number of addons that use the current arrangement. Shorting risk is small and a female header doesn't allow you to plug in that you can't plug in with a male header. 26 pins is 26 pins. You can always replace it for specific projects if required.

POE (Power over ethernet)
Agreed, that might be useful.

other official add ons could be made such as a Wifi, bluetooth or Xbee addon
You can consider an Edimax 7811 and a Tesco Bluetooth dongle to be near offical. £5 each and work just fine. Can't see the Foundation wasting time on anything "official" that can be bought off-the-shelf.

to have some analog-in ports
Agreed, but that adds size and cost ... which conflicts with the Pi objectives.
My Raspberry Pi blog and home of the BerryClip Add-on board : http://www.raspberrypi-spy.co.uk/
Follow me on Google+, Facebook, Pinterest and Twitter (@RPiSpy)

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 26833
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:55 pm

MattHawkinsUK wrote:Ditch the MicroUSB power connector
Disagree. Mobile phone chargers are easy to get and far better for kids. Yes I would like to feed a range of voltages into my Pi's but this has no educational value. £5 UBEC off eBay and the job is done.

Female GPIO header
Disagree. No point changing it now given the number of addons that use the current arrangement. Shorting risk is small and a female header doesn't allow you to plug in that you can't plug in with a male header. 26 pins is 26 pins. You can always replace it for specific projects if required.

POE (Power over ethernet)
Agreed, that might be useful.

other official add ons could be made such as a Wifi, bluetooth or Xbee addon
You can consider an Edimax 7811 and a Tesco Bluetooth dongle to be near offical. £5 each and work just fine. Can't see the Foundation wasting time on anything "official" that can be bought off-the-shelf.

to have some analog-in ports
Agreed, but that adds size and cost ... which conflicts with the Pi objectives.
Nice post. Good to see that some people really get it!
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

d4n13
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:09 pm

Wake on Lan.

I realize the NIC is USB attached and there is no "proper" way to route a WOL signal through the USB bus, but if you were to push the signal over a GPI or other connection you could "sneek" the signal over to the SOC. Next question is, is there any cleaver way to wake the SOC. I had seen that there was a header that could get installed for a "reset" button. Wake on LAN and "reset" on LAN probably feel very similar.

As to whether or not a 1W device ever needs to go on sleep, probably not... unless it is battery powered. A "reset on lan" feature will really be a cool way to run some low power weather stations waking once an hour then back to bed.

To extend the idea... if the "purists" don't like sneaking a signal outside the USB bus, here's another approach. Route the WOL signal out of the NIC to one of the pin assemblies. I think the reset pin is already routed (P6). Now hacker / hobbyists could "bridge" the signal on their bread boards.

EDIT:
BTW... the more I think of it, the more I think of it, the WOL signal from the NIC, should be routed to a pin on board. This would reduce cost and leave the "what to do" with that pin the the implementer.
Last edited by d4n13 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12956
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:26 pm

d4n13 wrote:A "reset on lan" feature will really be a cool way to run some low power weather stations waking once an hour then back to bed.
To do a reset on LAN.... Use ssh to connect to the Pi. Issue "sudo reboot". Done.

If you want it to reset (reboot) itself once an hour, use cron.

Of everything listed, the one item both potentially practical (due to the advantages of volume production) and helpful would be improved power regulators, particularly if the main regulator could boost low input voltage to a full 5v. This would get rid of most of the issues people have with poor quality power blocks and poor quality power cables.

gordon77
Posts: 5121
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:33 pm

MattHawkinsUK wrote:Ditch the MicroUSB power connector
Disagree. No point changing it now given the number of addons that use the current arrangement. Shorting risk is small and a female header doesn't allow you to plug in that you can't plug in with a male header. 26 pins is 26 pins. You can always replace it for specific projects if required.

.
try plugging a resistor into a male header, like you can on an Arduino :)

SteveSpencer
Posts: 357
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:19 am
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:39 pm

Female GPIO header
Disagree. No point changing it now given the number of addons that use the current arrangement. Shorting risk is small and a female header doesn't allow you to plug in that you can't plug in with a male header. 26 pins is 26 pins. You can always replace it for specific projects if required.
In my opinion, the shorting risk, given the proximity of 3v3, 5v and ground pins, is significant. You really wouldn't want to inadvertently contact two pins with a conductive object.

However, I agree that there is now no point in changing it.

Besides, making a female/female adaptor using two headers and some strip-board is good soldering practice!
Steve S
No, I can't think of anything funny that won't offend someone if they want it to...

d4n13
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:14 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
d4n13 wrote:A "reset on lan" feature will really be a cool way to run some low power weather stations waking once an hour then back to bed.
To do a reset on LAN.... Use ssh to connect to the Pi. Issue "sudo reboot". Done.

If you want it to reset (reboot) itself once an hour, use cron.
Not quite....
1) ssh to Pi
2) do work
3) sudo shutdown -h now
4) eat lunch
5) send Magic packet to Pi to wake it with "reset" trigger
6) goto (1)

You are assuming that the Pi is always awake... agreed WOL is pointless if the Pi is always awake. My suggestion is allowing the Pi to come out of halt. And yes... halt is useful unless other reports are wrong. In halt everything goes to the lowest power state prolonging battery life on battery operated Pi.

EDIT:
BTW... the more I think of it, the more I think of it, the WOL signal from the NIC, should be routed to a pin on board. This would reduce cost and leave the "what to do" with that pin the the implementer.

User avatar
Jessie
Posts: 1754
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:40 pm
Location: C/S CO USA

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:00 pm

meltwater wrote: My vote would go for:
- metal Sd-card slot.
- replacing the 3.3V linear regulator with a Switchmode one would provide a good power saving, if space/cost possible.
- at a push, fit a button and led which are available for beginners to play with.
I like these suggestions. Though I have never had any SD issues there are plenty that have. Getting power use down would be nice for mobile/battery/off grid options.

NathanBookham
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:18 am

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:36 am

I would love a metal SD card holder!

I mainly created this thread to see what people's thoughts were on a new revision of a Pi, and it's sparked some interesting conversation.
This account is now inactive.
I am now known as 'InverseSandwich'

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 26833
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:55 am

NathanBookham wrote:I would love a metal SD card holder!

I mainly created this thread to see what people's thoughts were on a new revision of a Pi, and it's sparked some interesting conversation.
For other thoughts, please read the myriad of other threads on the same subject.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

MrEngman
Posts: 4051
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:17 pm
Location: Southampton, UK

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:56 am

NathanBookham wrote:I would love a metal SD card holder!

I mainly created this thread to see what people's thoughts were on a new revision of a Pi, and it's sparked some interesting conversation.
I would agree. A higher quality SD card holder would be great. I have a number of SD cards which are now unusable as they have been physically damaged and I put this down to the current card holder with overly string spring contacts causing undue flexing of the card and causing the casing to crack.

And also solving the issue with hot-plugging USB devices really should be added to the list.

MrEngman
Simplicity is a prerequisite for reliability. Edsger W. Dijkstra

Please post ALL technical questions on the forum. Please Do Not send private messages.

User avatar
FTrevorGowen
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5721
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:12 pm
Location: Bristol, U.K.
Contact: Website

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:50 pm

MrEngman wrote:
NathanBookham wrote:I would love a metal SD card holder!

I mainly created this thread to see what people's thoughts were on a new revision of a Pi, and it's sparked some interesting conversation.
I would agree. A higher quality SD card holder would be great. I have a number of SD cards which are now unusable as they have been physically damaged and I put this down to the current card holder with overly string spring contacts causing undue flexing of the card and causing the casing to crack.

And also solving the issue with hot-plugging USB devices really should be added to the list.

MrEngman
Whilst I wouldn't insist on it being metal, having had two SD card holders fail (see http://www.cpmspectrepi.webspace.virgin ... ilure.html ) a type that does the same "job" as my repair approach should be better ie. supports the whole card rather than just the edges. Although the timescales of the two failures were different (days cf. months) the mechanism & result were virtually identical (see 'photos at the link above).
Trev.
Still running Raspbian Jessie or Stretch on some older Pi's (an A, B1, 2xB2, B+, P2B, 3xP0, P0W, 2xP3A+, P3B+, P3B, B+, and a A+) but Buster on the P4B's. See: https://www.cpmspectrepi.uk/raspberry_pi/raspiidx.htm

TechColab
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:27 am

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:20 pm

Next revision (almost no cost, no change to existing add-ons):
Jumper or solder pad for powering the USB/Ethernet so you can reduce power consumption on some projects.
Make I2S available
Make both I2C buses available
Make full hardware handshake lines available for serial
Make additional serial available
Make PWM/PCM available
Analogue input if the SoC supports it

Next version (can add a little cost, can break add-on compatibility):
As above, plus
1-wire bus
CAN bus
More convenient layout
VGA would be quite nice
Better on-board audio that doesn't conflict with GPIO use.
Button: GPIO + press to wake + hold to shutdown
More performance?

Optional full-feature power supply module containing:
AC-rectifier, protection for over-voltage, over-current.
Multiple input: PoE, USB, DC-barrel, PP3 - with hot-swap.
Power switch, DC-DC up/down (3v-30v?) switch-mode regulator, big capacitor.
low-voltage / brown-out warning signal by GPIO flag (or analogue input from source).
wake-on-LAN, wake-on-modem, wake-on-GPIO
Full power-off initiated from software or by built-in shutdown button.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12956
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:09 am

TechColab wrote: VGA would be quite nice
The SoC doesn't have native VGA, so this would take additional circuitry (read: costs money) as well as finding somewhere to stick the connector.
More performance?
There are, basically, two ways to get this. One would require picking another SoC--which would mean a whole new board design. The other would require someone being willing to die-shrink the SoC. Either way, you're talking up-front money....potentially a whole lot of it.

Personally, I think more performance will happen, but the board will likely not be called a "Raspberry Pi". I don't think it will happen particularly soon, either. I'd look for it in 3 to 5 years.
Optional full-feature power supply module containing:
AC-rectifier, protection for over-voltage, over-current.
Multiple input: PoE, USB, DC-barrel, PP3 - with hot-swap.
Power switch, DC-DC up/down (3v-30v?) switch-mode regulator, big capacitor.
low-voltage / brown-out warning signal by GPIO flag (or analogue input from source).
wake-on-LAN, wake-on-modem, wake-on-GPIO
Full power-off initiated from software or by built-in shutdown button.
This sort of thing is what I'd look to third parties for. Adafruit, for instance. A (relatively) long time ago I suggested something like this to include regulated power, a powered USB hub, and (as an option) an HDMI to VGA converter, all done in the same footprint as the Pi, permitting a "stacked" case to hold both boards.

TechColab
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:27 am

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:25 pm

Another cheap option to be considered for the next revision, rather than the next version:
3 'solder pad switches' for power & USB data, pre-configured as default for normal model 'B' operation. But with option to break a track/solder-blob and add a 3-pin header on each of the locations so that the user can select between model 'B' and model 'A' modes. This would enable users to drastically reduce power consumption on certain projects without having to buy a separate model 'A'.

User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 17418
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:21 am

TechColab wrote:Another cheap option to be considered for the next revision, rather than the next version:
3 'solder pad switches' for power & USB data, pre-configured as default for normal model 'B' operation. But with option to break a track/solder-blob and add a 3-pin header on each of the locations so that the user can select between model 'B' and model 'A' modes. This would enable users to drastically reduce power consumption on certain projects without having to buy a separate model 'A'.
I can't see the point in doing this. Why not just buy a Model A and save money?

It would take rather more than a few pads and links to change the behaviour of the system - First you'd need to redirect the USB data lines from the BCM chip to go the the USB socket instead of the LAN chip uplink. Then you'd have to isolate the USB data lines that go from the LAN chip to the USB socket. Then you'd have to isolate all the power connections to the LAN chip - 3.3v and 1.8v - I count at least 14 pins, although many of them are probably linked together with a single track. There are probably a few more signalling connections between BCM and LAN that would need to be isolated and terminated too.

The potential for ending up with a dead Pi if you get just one link wrong is quite high :(

MoosePi
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:49 am

TechColab wrote:Another cheap option to be considered for the next revision, rather than the next version:
3 'solder pad switches' for power & USB data, pre-configured as default for normal model 'B' operation. But with option to break a track/solder-blob and add a 3-pin header on each of the locations so that the user can select between model 'B' and model 'A' modes. This would enable users to drastically reduce power consumption on certain projects without having to buy a separate model 'A'.
http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... 63&t=56598
Pi Forum Search and Google yields answers to many questions

nicknml
Posts: 200
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:44 pm

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:04 pm

I want two Ethernet interfaces that don't run off the USB bus, Gb would be nice but 100Mb would be fine. I have almost killed a Pi by an object falling on the GPIO pins (camera module fell on it) but fortunately it simply rebooted and the camera and GPIO pins were OK; perhaps they should simply come with a plastic cover on the pins when not in use. My first suggestion is probably better geared to a model C as opposed to a revision 3.

jdb
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 2415
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:37 pm

Re: Some feedback for a revision 3 board

Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:19 pm

Oh, it must be that day of the week again.

Thread locked. See the sticky linked.
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

Return to “General discussion”