Lynbarn
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Re: Concern trolling

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:52 pm

Tass said:


Andre_P said:


Healthy debate is good. Debate that resorts insincere perspectives, attacking your interlocutor rather than the argument, just plain being rude or just plain being an ARSE* stops being a debate and descends to the pitiful grunts of Neanderthals.


Nice, clean, clear definition as I see it!


A bit unfair on Neanderthals perhaps (they are now believed to have been far more intelligent than originally thought, and there is probably a bit of Neanderthal in all of us!) but they are basically the criteria that admins use to determine when and how to act.

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abishur
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:34 am

crshbndct said:


I would like some clarification here. Does this just mean people who raise concerns about the Product?



Not necessarily, the issue being discussed is more of when a person claims to just be caring about the project or they just want to help out, but then the tone of the post is one long "everyone here is incompetent for not doing things my way" or they lash out when anyone tries to respond to their point claiming oppression/censorship for not immediately bowing down to their comments (they're just so concerned you see, and this problem has to be fixed asap or all of time and space might unravel!)

I definitely want to make sure that everyone understands we are always open to calm and rational discussion.  What we're against is the personal attacks or bellyaching when people disagree.  Throwing a hissy fit doesn't lead to productive dialog
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abishur
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:15 pm

This post in the comments on the blog is a prime example of what concern trolling is.
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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:23 pm

But is he going to get a damned good spanking?

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Jongoleur
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:33 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


But is he going to get a damned good spanking?


No, sounds like he may enjoy that sort of thing.  Hem Hem.....
I'm just a bouncer, splatterers do it with more force.....

Ravenous
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:42 pm

Now now this is a family forum

Anyway the best way to kill a troll is to slowly, patiently, bore him to death...

Joe Schmoe
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:55 pm

That post was a work of art!  Truly fantastic.

I was about to ask what language he was speaking - since it sure wasn't English - but then I decided to name it myself.  It is Garblespeak.  It is no accident.  It carefully constructed to make a point - to make the poster look like an idiot (*).   You really gotta love the artistic nature of someone complaining about other people's lack of profissionalism (sic).

(*) You may ask why a poster would set out to make himself look like an idiot, but if you think it through, I think you will figure it out.  It is pretty standard stuff in terms of social engineering.

In any case, long live Garblespeak!
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:34 pm

I think there may be a little lost in translation - English doesn't appear to be his first language.
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:51 pm

As I said, I don't think it was an accident - hence my harping on it does not fall into the category of your typical "spelling and/or grammar flame".

Instead, I think this sort of stuff is intentionally posted in Garblespeak for specific socio-political ends.  As you can guess, I've seen this sort of thing before, in other forums.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

UncleDave
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:56 pm

Go on make fun of people, ban people and have a jolly good self-congratulatory back slapping exercise. The long and short of this release is that it is a failure. It is not a failure because people have tried their best. It's not a failure because people have volunteered their time. It's not a failure because the first batch is a month late with no sign of a release date. It's not a failure because the wrong Ethernet ports were fitted. It's not a failure because the boards were not tested for compliance.

It's a failure because there has been a failure in communication.

IMHO this is so typical of academia, have a great idea but fall at the final hurdle. As soon as people dare to challenge, the righteous indignation pours out with the scorn. Once people start "concerned trolling" or asking the questions that could be answered by "search the forum, thread closed" the admins and the project have started to lose their way. People keep asking dumb questions because they want answers. You should know by now that they are going to keep asking unless the path to the answer is obvious. Every time I read a sarcastic remark by an admin I cringe, you have just lost a little more goodwill. Right now I think the project should be focusing on building goodwill not being sarcastic and self-congratulatory when they "put a troll in their place".

The best way to bring the project back is to communicate. Put a huge banner across the site called current progress or something - just make it impossible to miss. Then tell people what is happening. Even if you don't know - tell us that you don't know - there's no shame in that. The only place there is shame is in making fun of and belittling others.

UD.

ProDigit
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:14 pm

Some people behave like an 'ass' because they honestly come to a website, and are called 'troll', 'spammer' and their thread is ridiculed just because they ask simple questions!

I think such behavior is not appropriate! I think in these cases one should dig to the thread, and read up on why the person gets a lot of complaints,

If a forum is ruled by a bunch of senseless, harsh people, who in expressing their thought do nothing but bash, ridicule, and negativize an otherwise honest and simple question, then your system will work opposite of what it supposed to reach.

I don't believe in trollers. I do believe in people responding in negative ways towards others! The only trollers/spammers that should be removed are those who post links to personal sales sites, or things like that... But not people who may have asked a question that's been addressed thousands of times already in the forum.

You have to know that many don't know how to use a search engine, don't know the right search terms, and if they do use it, come up with hundreds of results where the first 50 threads, with 50 posts in them each, will NOT address their issue.

In such case I do believe that people asking questions that already have been answered in the forum, are not trolls, but are genuine; and should not be treated as such.
Even people who're lazy to use the search engine, should not be treated as a troll!

Only people who're bashing other users for asking,or threads because in their opinion they have read the answer on the forum,thus everyone else should!

my 2ct on the matter!

I've been in a lot of forums, and one thing I clearly see in some, and clearly don't in others is something like 'forum courtesy', where people will not immediately bash others, and then calling them a troll,but where users treat each other with respect; regardless of how many times the question has been addressed or how intelligent the question may be.

My 4ct on the matter!

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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:18 pm

UncleDave said:


Go on make fun of people, ban people and have a jolly good self-congratulatory back slapping exercise. The long and short of this release is that it is a failure. It is not a failure because people have tried their best. It's not a failure because people have volunteered their time. It's not a failure because the first batch is a month late with no sign of a release date. It's not a failure because the wrong Ethernet ports were fitted. It's not a failure because the boards were not tested for compliance.

It's a failure because there has been a failure in communication.

IMHO this is so typical of academia, have a great idea but fall at the final hurdle. As soon as people dare to challenge, the righteous indignation pours out with the scorn. Once people start "concerned trolling" or asking the questions that could be answered by "search the forum, thread closed" the admins and the project have started to lose their way. People keep asking dumb questions because they want answers. You should know by now that they are going to keep asking unless the path to the answer is obvious. Every time I read a sarcastic remark by an admin I cringe, you have just lost a little more goodwill. Right now I think the project should be focusing on building goodwill not being sarcastic and self-congratulatory when they "put a troll in their place".

The best way to bring the project back is to communicate. Put a huge banner across the site called current progress or something - just make it impossible to miss. Then tell people what is happening. Even if you don't know - tell us that you don't know - there's no shame in that. The only place there is shame is in making fun of and belittling others.

UD.



Couldn't be said any better, and I fully agree!
Something you americans need to understand, is that the majority of the world speaks another language (yes, that is English is only their second, or third,or fourth language).

The least you can do is show respect to all people, even if they don't speak the language fluently, and are not as capable in expressing themselves in this language as well as you do!
After all, what would you do if this forum was in polish, or danish, or croatian?

Would you appreciate people bashing you for not spelling correctly?

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:21 pm

But of course you are being disingenuous. These are not the sorts of people who are being banned. If people come to a site and make continuous carping criticisms the admins are not going to be happy about it and will eventually react, which is what a troll really wants. If you would like to keep up to date with some of them, pop over to the Element14 forum which is their current lair.

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abishur
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:23 pm

UncleDave said:


It's a failure because there has been a failure in communication.


Yes, because the front page is full of lack of communication?  I get that you, like many, are upset because you don't have your board, but we do ask that you air your grievances respectfully if you don't and continue with personal attacks you will be banned.  That goes for you too Prodigit, I know the thread you're referring to and you're blowing things way out of proportion no one has called you a troll at the time of this post, you're putting words in peoples mouth.

When someone brings up a subject that has been thoroughly discussed we're going to point them at it because it has the information they seek it keeps down the fragmentation and helps them in one swoop.
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:24 pm

may I also point out, that 'trol' is the easiest, and quickest way for some users to identify people, and get rid of them if they don't like them?
Any post that goes a bit off topic is called a troll, and thus some bad users could ban good users just by hooking together. It's a practice more often used.

I will do my best to identify possible true trolls, however I am aware that sometimes in addressing a user for unprofessional behavior he might call me a troll instead and report me.

Trolling is an endless debate, lol

UncleDave
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:28 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


But of course you are being disingenuous. These are not the sorts of people who are being banned. If people come to a site and make continuous carping criticisms the admins are not going to be happy about it and will eventually react, which is what a troll really wants. If you would like to keep up to date with some of them, pop over to the Element14 forum which is their current lair.



With all due respect, I don't think that you're in a position to call me disingenuous.

UD.

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:32 pm

They can be identified in the way that they make repeated critical posts, often at length, over a period of time. The same point is made repeatedly in a number of topics. They will criticise the product, the team, the admins, the way the product has been manufactured, the way it has been developed. Often capitals are used. There is a frequent demand for more and more detailed, if irrelevant information. If a response is made it is ignored and the same point is made again, repeatedly.

I think that is probably about it. Let me know if I have left anything out? I am eager to continue our conversation.

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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:37 pm

Abishur said:


UncleDave said:



It's a failure because there has been a failure in communication.


Yes, because the front page is full of lack of communication?  I get that you, like many, are upset because you don't have your board, but we do ask that you air your grievances respectfully if you don't and continue with personal attacks you will be banned.  That goes for you too Prodigit, I know the thread you're referring to and you're blowing things way out of proportion no one has called you a troll at the time of this post, you're putting words in peoples mouth.

When someone brings up a subject that has been thoroughly discussed we're going to point them at it because it has the information they seek it keeps down the fragmentation and helps them in one swoop.



I think you don't understand the intentions of some people!

First of all there have been numerous posts perhaps not calling me a troll, but my thread, yes.

Second I think you're incorrect in your assumption that the other user wants 'his own board'. He might just want to make a point.
There are times when a thread goes into something completely different, and I think that should (to some degrees) be allowed.

People just address personal issues in threads, because these personal issues are there.

I don't see why I put the word 'troll' into some other user's mouth, if they're the ones trolling, not me (read carefully through the threads, and you may see my point of view on it). It's usually the honest user responding to an unfriendly remark or post that gets banned or addressed, not the unfriendly remark.

By banning those people, forum admins are basically encouraging users to be unfriendly towards others, and others to just accept this kind of talk, or 'hit the road'.

If you ask me, which is a wrong way of administrating a forum, but that'd be my personal opinion.

Perhaps in trying to address 2 things at once, directing users to another post, and keeping fragmentation down, it might be appropriate to know how this all is being done! One could give a simple link, or look here, or one can bash a thread and a user too for not looking careful through the whole forum!

The latter seems predominant in this forum by a certain amount of people,who basically get away with it, without being addressed.

Perhaps it's good to know that for some users this kind of behavior is the starting engine for what others might call 'trolling';in other words, users complaining and trying to address the wrongful way something has been said, only to be labeled a troll.

I don't know... There are plenty of forums I am active on, who never have any issues with this behavior. I wonder why in some there is plenty of that on other forums?

Though, this is not the worst forum neither, I've seen worse; but I've also seen better!

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MrBunsy
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:38 pm

UncleDave said:


It's a failure because there has been a failure in communication.


Going to have to disagree here, I've not posted on these forums before, but I have been following the blog and lurking here for some months.

I can't think of any times where I've not actually known what the current status is (given a lag of a couple of days), every time the state of affairs has changed Liz's posted about it.  Pretty much every delay seems to be caused by or increased by the fact that demand has been orders of magnitude higher than expected, and the level of communication we've received has been far in excess of what I would expect from a small group of people, let alone a small group of people with day jobs!

Just my observations thus far.

UncleDave
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:38 pm

Abishur said:


UncleDave said:



It's a failure because there has been a failure in communication.


Yes, because the front page is full of lack of communication?  I get that you, like many, are upset because you don't have your board, but we do ask that you air your grievances respectfully if you don't and continue with personal attacks you will be banned.  That goes for you too Prodigit, I know the thread you're referring to and you're blowing things way out of proportion no one has called you a troll at the time of this post, you're putting words in peoples mouth.

When someone brings up a subject that has been thoroughly discussed we're going to point them at it because it has the information they seek it keeps down the fragmentation and helps them in one swoop.



Unfortunately my point is proven immediately, the very first sentence is sarcastic. I've been around long enough to know what a troll is and how tough it is to be an admin. I've also been following the project for long enough to know that most questions have been asked more than once. I recognise your frustration with answering the same question over and over again but it is a role that admins have accepted.

My suggestion is that instead of having a blanket "it's in the forum try search" consider what people are asking and pin more threads or have a status page that is updated daily. If people see that something is happening they are happy, keep them in the dark and they get frustrated.

UD.

UncleDave
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:44 pm

MrBunsy said:


UncleDave said:


It's a failure because there has been a failure in communication.


Going to have to disagree here, I've not posted on these forums before, but I have been following the blog and lurking here for some months.

I can't think of any times where I've not actually known what the current status is (given a lag of a couple of days), every time the state of affairs has changed Liz's posted about it.  Pretty much every delay seems to be caused by or increased by the fact that demand has been orders of magnitude higher than expected, and the level of communication we've received has been far in excess of what I would expect from a small group of people, let alone a small group of people with day jobs!

Just my observations thus far.


Can we agree to disagree?

I'm not sure that I would add value to this thread by listing what, I consider, could have been better communicated. I will also be the first to agree that hindsight is 20-20.

UD.

ProDigit
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:47 pm

Abishur said:

That goes for you too Prodigit, I know the thread you're referring to and you're blowing things way out of proportion no one has called you a troll at the time of this post, you're putting words in peoples mouth.

And that's also an excuse trollers use (not saying you are, but some people do) to justify calling someone a troll... Sometimes even when the thread is 10 posts large some find it enough to call someone a troll (just because someone likes to elaborate on a topic).

thomas41546
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:48 pm

The Rpi foundation has been doing a very good job communicating with the community. I am truly impressed at how cool they have stayed, despite all these bogus requests and remarks that they had to deal with. It is a complex process to make this Rpi board and release to the public, and I think that this complexity is very often overlooked when criticism is made to the foundation. The launch was very successful in my eyes, look at the news converge and overwhelming demand for the Rpi. The board will come and it will be a fantastic tool for children to play around with.

ProDigit
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:55 pm

You know, the hardest part about this topic is, that you're prone to be flagged as a troller, just because you're trying to work out some difficulty, or trying to get some point across,which others may completely not see..

Keeping yourself in the shadows, out of public view, makes it harder for people to flag you; it's easier to stay on the safe side, but as soon as you want to genuinely address something you're on the no1 hitlist of being banned.

It's like walking a fine thread….

I'm glad so far the admins have not banned me yet, even if this topic is a less nice one to talk about (yes, that is even for me).

And sometimes I find it necessary to elaborate, just so we could understand each other on the same level.

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bwoodbury
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:18 pm

Perhaps this thread should have started off with some information on what "trolling" means and how it is defined for this forum. I'm sure we all have different interpretations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.....nternet%29

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