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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:38 pm

Perhaps someone could set up a Troll Definition sub-group.

E
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:27 pm

Trolls will be fed to the Piranha?



(I've been itching for an excuse to use this graphic, sorry  )

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johnbeetem
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:32 pm

I see a Troll as someone who makes rude, counter-productive comments and persists in doing so even when asked not to.  A Troll is similar to Winston Churchill's definition of a Fanatic as: "Someone who cannot change his Mind, and cannot change the Subject."

My favorite scene from the movie “War Games” (1983) is when hero Matthew Broderick goes to the local university’s computing center to get hacking advice.  He finds two graduate students, Jim Sting (Maury Chaykin) and Malvin (Eddie Deezen).  Jim Sting is overweight and laconic; Malvin AKA “Mr. Potato Head” is an übernerd with black frame glasses, a pocket protector, and no social graces.  After Malvin does something particularly obnoxious, Jim Sting says: “Remember you told me to tell you when you were acting rudely and insensitively?  Remember that?  You're doing it right now.”

I think anyone who joins a forum that requires civility -- such as RasPi's -- has implicitly asked to be told when he or she is acting rudely and insensitively.

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Jongoleur
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:33 pm

I used to think that trolling was the practice of rowing across a lake with a fishing line streamed from the stern, towing a suitable spinning lure.

It seems I may be wrong......



ps SiR - like the RasPiranha!
I'm just a bouncer, splatterers do it with more force.....

Lynbarn
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:37 pm

SiR said:


Trolls will be fed to the Piranha?



(I've been itching for an excuse to use this graphic, sorry  )



LOL! Brilliant!!! Not sure what Guru will make of it, mind.

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:39 pm

I always thought it was gay Polari, as used on Round The Horn.

SANDY: Well how nice to vada your eek again, Mr. Horne. What brings you trolling in here?

HORNE: I heard you were presenting a new ballet. Could you tell me ...

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Jongoleur
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:54 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


I always thought it was gay Polari, as used on Round The Horn.

SANDY: Well how nice to vada your eek again, Mr. Horne. What brings you trolling in here?

HORNE: I heard you were presenting a new ballet. Could you tell me ...



Showing your age there......

I'm just a bouncer, splatterers do it with more force.....

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:55 pm

How bold!

jamesh
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:42 pm

UncleDave said:


MrBunsy said:


UncleDave said:


It's a failure because there has been a failure in communication.


Going to have to disagree here, I've not posted on these forums before, but I have been following the blog and lurking here for some months.

I can't think of any times where I've not actually known what the current status is (given a lag of a couple of days), every time the state of affairs has changed Liz's posted about it.  Pretty much every delay seems to be caused by or increased by the fact that demand has been orders of magnitude higher than expected, and the level of communication we've received has been far in excess of what I would expect from a small group of people, let alone a small group of people with day jobs!

Just my observations thus far.


Can we agree to disagree?

I'm not sure that I would add value to this thread by listing what, I consider, could have been better communicated. I will also be the first to agree that hindsight is 20-20.

UD.


All the information that could be posted on the site has been posted. Information that for whatever reasons could not be posted (NDA's, confidentiality contracts etc) hasn't been. It possible it could have been better presented in some cases, but there certainly hasn't been a lack of postable information.

Aside from a permanent front page status banner, I'm not sure what else could have been done. As it is, more information has been forthcoming than any other project launch I can think of. Which is sort of the point of the project - its part of the teaching angle.
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judderman
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:48 pm

They are (or until recently were) repeating Round The Horn & I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again on Radio4 Extra on Mon eve.

I stopped listening when I got sick of my daughter whinging about me 'watching the radio on the TV', lol.

Rambling Syd Rumpo cracks me up, but Julian & his friend Sandy are a close second favourite.

Phoenix RasPi
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:04 pm

The admins here may be suffering from noob and discussion fatigue.  It happens to every forum trying to provide information on a particular product or service sooner or later.  The trick is to recognize it, or the forum will become progressively useless.  The admins get understandably tired of repeatedly answering the same questions, or at least what they perceive as being the same questions.  Sometimes, it's not actually the case, a noob just chooses unfortunate wording.  It probably doesn't help when admins try to decompress by taking a well-earned vacation and wind up doing things like injuring their leg while tempting Murphy by sliding down a mountain on slippery boards

One way to avoid noob fatigue is to rely on forum members to answer questions and point noobs to the not-always-obvious resources, while the admins take care of the spam, troubleshooting, and other more system-oriented tasks that only they can perform.  Telling a noob the question has been asked and answered a million times before and they should use the Wordpress search function is just asking for trouble.  Even some of the admins admit it's nearly worthless, and there are way too many redundant threads/posts when results are found.

Pointing noobs at the Google search field isn't always a solution either, as Wordpress suppresses it on mobile devices (even on tablets with plenty of screen real estate) along with the entire right column containing the partner logos, Twitter posts, Wordpress archives, etc.  If a desktop/laptop browser window is sized narrowly enough, the right Wordpress column winds up below all of the posts/comments, which can take a year to scroll through on the home page or the posts/comments one level deeper from there.  Wordpress has some other idiosyncracies that I won't bother repeating here.  What may seem obvious to some people isn't necessarily so for others, and it's not their fault.

The RasPi Foundation and forum are also now associated with The Missing Toys Club since an extremely large (and still growing) number of people have been waiting for upwards of a year for the boards to become available.  That customer frustration adds to the admin fatigue factor and more likely multiplies it, maybe even makes it exponential, putting everyone even more on-edge than is typical.  Every additional delay is making customers that much more critical and the admins feel obligated to respond, which seldom ends well since there's a tendency for the rhetoric to escalate quickly.  Obviously, this problem will go away once supply catches up with demand, but, that's a long ways off.

The text-based nature of forums also doesn't help at all, as upwards of 90% of interpersonal communication is lost when facial expressions, body language, vocal inflection, etc., aren't exchanged.  Attempts at humor, especially wry humor, often aren't received as intended.  There are probably also cultural differences that aren't perceived when people from various places are randomly tossed together with no context.  On top of everything else, this means the admins should probably be going through police hostage negotiator and suicide hotline training in order to be able to adequately deal with the range of emotions encountered here.  It's always more helpful to assume the best and try not to go ugly early just because there's an honest (and all too often, passionate) difference of opinion.

This wound up a lot longer than intended, and I was just making some observations that I hope might be helpful in seeing things from other perspectives.  Thanks for your time and the effort needed to keep the ship away from the icebergs.

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Tass
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Re: Concern trolling

Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:51 pm

@JamesH - great points!  Especially if you look at the compliance blog on the front page.  Two additional updated in the last 24 hours.  That just goes to show that when the foundation has information they can share, they do.

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Morgaine
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Re: Concern trolling

Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:42 pm

Phoenix RasPi said:


The admins get understandably tired of repeatedly answering the same questions, or at least what they perceive as being the same questions.

...

One way to avoid noob fatigue is to rely on forum members to answer questions and point noobs to the not-always-obvious resources, while the admins take care of the spam, troubleshooting, and other more system-oriented tasks that only they can perform.



+1 to this.

What's more, it's the normal way for forums to work.  Participants enjoy helping out with newbie questions, it allows them to make a contribution in the same way that they were helped when they first arrived.

Morgaine.
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SN
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Re: Concern trolling

Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:14 pm

It would help if you could use emoticons on here without guessing - helps with the textual element. I think Liz said this but the Golden Rule on forums is this: if you wouldn"t say it to someone"s face then don"t post it!
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r3d4
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Re: Concern trolling

Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:34 pm

SN said:


It would help if you could use emoticons on here without guessing – helps with the textual element. I think Liz said this but the Golden Rule on forums is this: if you wouldn"t say it to someone"s face then don"t post it!


it makes sense on paper (all be it virtual paper) like alot of things

eg Communism capitalism democracy and the list goes on

but most ppl would think twice if not thrice befor saying any things to the face of

the lummox

however "distance form face" (technical term ) and

therein distance from consequences to face

eg pummeling

forums and suchlike provide

give them the opportunity to not have to think

twice

or even at all  !

in some cases
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Re: Concern trolling

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:24 pm

Andre_P said:


You know I learn stuff everyday, I didn't even know that the term 'Concern Troll' existed, and  while I'm about admitting to my own ignorance it's only been in the last few months that the term Troll has really struck home .



Neither did I - seems even wikipedia has a bit on the term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28 ... cern_troll

colincoach
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Re: Concern trolling

Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:30 am

meltwater said:


The admins get a lot of stick for doing a great job (IMHO).

Aside from protecting the interests of the foundation on their own forum..which you"d expect any place to do (there are many many examples far worse on other sites than simply locking a thread which gets out of hand or really isn"t adding anything positive or useful).

As for stuff which is simply attacking or inappropriate…then the admins shouldn"t hold back, it has no place here.

Anyway.  Keep up the good work!


Hear hear....

Chris.Rowland
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Re: Concern trolling

Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:51 am

Yes, it's been much more pleasant here recently - and possible to discuss and solve problems.

richardp
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Re: Concern trolling

Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:00 am

My word.. for a company that purports to be professional I am really at a loss for words. I am not going to read pages 2 to infinity as I dont think it is productive.

As to 'Concern Trolling' - you can search the internet and find anything that supports your argument, using a Wiki link does not help the cause.

In every group there are several personality types, but the main 4 are Analytical, Driver, Amiable and Expressive. Do some reading on the traits those people have and you will see that 'negative' comments are not bad, they are positive points to think about.

Every group has all the traits, and the best is to pair up the groups that co-operate get the best results from what seems to be a negative.

If a person does not support your argument, are they labelled trolls automatically? Or if a person is worried about something they are 'Concern-trolls'

@Liz/moderator , perhaps they too close/biased to the Pi foundation and have an emotional interest; Comments are taken personally and negative comments are taken too personally.

Instead of 'Labelling' people that you don't agree with, why not pair them up with the opposite personality type and leverage the knowledge and learn.

Richard
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Tass
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Re: Concern trolling

Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:13 am

@Richard You seem to be missing the point quite spectacularly.  No one here has a problem with a different point of view - that would be censorship.  Open debate is very healthy and I would assume welcomed by the foundation.  If it's civil.

If you did read through several pages you would see that one of the main definitions of trolling discussed here is to repeatedly ask the same question/try start the same argument.  I haven't seen anyone of these forums (foundation/admins/other) use the term troll without something trying to kick off an nonconstructive or offensive debate several times over.  When someone has tried to kick something off I've often seen admins gently steer try the post in the right direction and if needed give the person in question several polite warnings before taking any action.

CrashlanderXL
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Re: Concern trolling

Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:26 am

My advice to those who feel they are wronged in any way on this board in particular, is to remember that the guys running it are not paid workers. They don't have to provide this service, and could simply shut the board down if they wanted to.

If members post what they think is a reasonable and fair point/question, and they actually become modded for it, then the simplest and best thing to do is ask.... "Why?" ... and wait for an answer. There may be a very valid reason why the post was modded.

Far too many threads on many boards get bogged down arguing pedantics. What starts off as a seemingly reasonable question devolves into "I just want to win the argument and/or score points off the other guy".

Too long, didn't read:

Don't take it so seriously, and if you get modded, don't take it as a personal attack. Agree or disagree then move on.

For laughs, if people want to see some seriously strict administration, google Elitist Jerks (its about World of Warcraft) and look for the Banhammer thread. It's not for the faint hearted.

jamesh
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Re: Concern trolling

Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:41 am

Good points crashlander.

It's worth noting that very very few threads get altered here, and there have been very few bans for stuff other than spamming.

A couple of people have taken exception to their comments being binned or accounts being disabled, but they really did deserve it (you should see some of the racist stuff I binned the other day from someone who was banned! He was using a static IP address, so obviously not that bright)

We are having to be a bit stricter now we have a lot of users from the more general public (i.e. not so geeky?), but in general everyone here is pretty polite and sensible.
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richardp
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Re: Concern trolling

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:14 am

CrashlanderXL said:


My advice to those who feel they are wronged in any way on this board in particular, is to remember that the guys running it are not paid workers. They don't have to provide this service, and could simply shut the board down if they wanted to.

If members post what they think is a reasonable and fair point/question, and they actually become modded for it, then the simplest and best thing to do is ask.... "Why?" ... and wait for an answer. There may be a very valid reason why the post was modded.

Far too many threads on many boards get bogged down arguing pedantics. What starts off as a seemingly reasonable question devolves into "I just want to win the argument and/or score points off the other guy".

Too long, didn't read:

Don't take it so seriously, and if you get modded, don't take it as a personal attack. Agree or disagree then move on.

For laughs, if people want to see some seriously strict administration, google Elitist Jerks (its about World of Warcraft) and look for the Banhammer thread. It's not for the faint hearted.


I am not disputing anyone.. bit I am against 'Labels' being used with viewpoints. Scoring points from 'The other guy' seems biased and subjective. Is a debate on the viewpoints more constructive and trying to understand why the so-called 'trolls' actions made him/her post the question.. the key is Understanding. If I went in to an AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) meeting and started shouting 'You are all alcoholics' ; I will certainly be lynched for telling the truth. Same with forums. some people just don't want to hear other views or are too obtuse to try diffuse the situation.

If I was to critique on the GertBoard (no offence Gert! .. its an example) I would have 10000 people telling me to sod off and go make your own board... but I wont get a comment from Gert, who is actually the only person entitled to comment.

The Paid/Not paid excuse does not wash with me - You are either a professional or you are not. I don't to half jobs just 'cos I am not paid... I put my all in to it all the time; its who I am.

I don't take forums seriously, but I do not like censorship or bias... we might as well be in china and delete all posts that provoke thought.

After all, this is all meant to be fun.
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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Concern trolling

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:23 am

Move along. These are not the droids you are looking for.

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Tass
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Re: Concern trolling

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:24 am

richardp said:


I don't take forums seriously, but I do not like censorship or bias… we might as well be in china and delete all posts that provoke thought.


Well, again you seem to have a very different view of what's going on to several other people that are commenting on this thread.

Do you really think that threads are being locked or deleted because they're simply thought-provoking?

Or do you think that they're maybe being locked or deleted because they're trying to be offensive/insulting/racist, or trying to repeatedly (remember – repeatedly is the important word here) argue a point when they've been asked very nicely to stop their constant attack by an admin?

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