W. H. Heydt
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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Tue May 21, 2013 5:07 pm

mikerr wrote: You've just reinvented berryboot - it already does all the above and more ;)
As I recall, Eben mentioned that NOOBS was developed by, or with the aid of, the guy who wrote berryboot. And, indeed, there is a clear family resemblance if you've ever seen berryboot. (Which, oddly enough, I have, but not on a Pi.)

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Tue May 21, 2013 6:01 pm

Jim Manley wrote:Wayland solves the problem of not having a GPU-accelerated display server, window manager, and compositor, which the Wayland architecture and protocol, and Weston implementation combine. People keep immediately leaping to remote desktop rendering over 1970s 50 Kbps leased phone lines as if that was ever a Really Good Thing - I'm here to tell you from painful experience that it was not, it's just all that was available. The Pi is advertised, promoted, and marketed by the Foundation as a $25/$35 personal education computer and nothing more. Any misperceptions that others ascribe to it are purely their works of fiction, and one of the more popular fictionalizations is that it needs to be able to faithfully transmit its glorious 1080p HD output over networks at 60 fps (and preferably higher). Even with high-end desktop systems, if you have a bunch of them sending that kind of display data all at one time, your network is going to slow to a crawl, and it doesn't matter how many GHz or cores you have in each box.

I've updated my original post to make it clear that the GPU-accelerated display server, window manager, and compositor that Wayland and Weston provide establish the infrastructure that could allow a Mac OS X level of a GUI to be developed, e.g., dock icon animation, window zooming, dynamic desktop widgets and elements, etc, including 3-D effects (projected onto the 2-D display, of course). I didn't intend to say that it would come with all of the bells and whistles of an actual OS X GUI right out of the gate.

No one else had posted anything about Eben's presentation after nearly 12 hours, it was 4:45 AM, I hadn't been to bed yet that night, nor had I had more than three hours of sleep a night for more than the week preceding the Faire as I'm a volunteer through the entire week of prep leading up to the Faire and the weekend of the event. That's on top of an 80-plus-hour-a-week "day" job, teaching kids STEM as a volunteer after school, being a volunteer senior docent at the Computer History Museum and animal caretaker and visitor guide at the Monterey Bay Aquarium, organizing two Jams per month 100 miles apart, and a bunch of other miscellaneous activities - so, bite me. Show me what you've done to defend your country (and the rest of the sorry world mostly too chicken and cheap to do it themselves), how many companies have you helped start and grown to eight-plus figures, show me your patent portfolio, stop hiding behind not-cute anonymous handles, and grow a pair, for once.

I'm really getting fed up with the kibbutzers who keep sniping at the Foundation and anyone who shares their goals in STEM education. The Foundation has to put up with it because otherwise they'll just get called even worse things than they already are, but I don't have to, and I'm not going to, not by a long shot. The Pi was never designed to be a media center, a multi-service host, or a lot of other things that some have shoehorned onto it, and the fact that it can actually do even a modicum of such tasks is nothing short of simply amazing ... and totally unintended. People piss and moan about everyday miracles such as commercial flights, while 86 years ago Monday, Charles Lindbergh spent 33 hours flying solo, non-stop across the Atlantic for the first time, and all he had was a bag lunch to keep him satiated.

It just frosts me to no end how inconsiderate and self-entitled some people have become and dare to demand things they haven't done anything to deserve. Stop and take a look around and maybe you'll notice that upwards of 120,000 Syrians that were around a couple of years ago now aren't, while 1.2 million of their families, friends, and neighbors have beat feet to wherever they could walk just for scraps of food and water, and maybe a lousy tent with sandstorms blowing through it. Go join a humanitarian team in some hell-hole in the Third World where diseases we haven't seen in more than a century in our countries are still rampant and killing millions, especially kids. Spend some time in North Korea, where people are eating tree bark and grass because their Dear Leader is spending what little capital they do have on daily 747 cargo flights full of top-notch Western luxury goods ranging from Johnny Walker Black to Dior diamonds (they maintain power by paying off fellow thugs and beating up everyone else that they don't just have murdered, sometimes just to set random examples).

So, what was your problem, Bunky?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

He's finally lost it.

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Wed May 22, 2013 5:40 am

I think a good sleep will fix him up though.

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Wed May 22, 2013 6:27 am

Heater wrote:I think a good sleep will fix him up though.
That reminds me of the legendary Churchill comment...

"Winston - you're drunk!"
"Madam, you are ugly, but in the morning I will be sober!" :D
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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Wed May 22, 2013 1:44 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote:
So, what was your problem, Bunky?
I too have no idea who Bunky is or what it is in refernce to.
Amazing -- for some reason there's no reference to it on Wikipedia.

There's an old [USA and maybe elsewhere] comedy routine entitled "What's the matter, Bunky?" where an old codger is trying to console his friend "Bunky" by sympathetically listing his woes in a deadpan with sappy music and then tries to cheer him up with unrelated positive "happy talk" with celebratory music. You never hear Bunky's voice -- he's obviously too depressed to reply. It was used at least twice on [USA TV show] Fractured Flickers (1963) where the voice-over is illustrated with hilarious excerpts from silent movies ("flickers") and stock footage, but I suspect the routine goes back much further, perhaps early radio or vaudeville.

It generally begins "What's the matter, Bunky? Is the world not treating you right?" and then goes into a specific problem like: "You say it's Mother's Day and you're having trouble with your mother?"

You need the visuals and audio to appreciate it. Check out Fractured Flickers episodes 7 (mother) and 10 (wife).

[edits shown in brackets]

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Thu May 23, 2013 5:31 pm

Does anyone know if the noobs system will allow a custom OS image to be deployed. I'm using pi with a group of students from sept, I need them running rasbian install with vnc,avahi and connection to rsync server preconfigured. If they can easily return their pi to this "factory" state that would make using them in lessons a lot easier.

James

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Thu May 23, 2013 8:26 pm

If they can easily return their pi to this "factory" state that would make using them in lessons a lot easier.
That would be great if we could - classroom management of RPi is one of the big nuts that needs cracking.

Simon
PS Do you fancy starting a new thread on where you've got so far?
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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Thu May 23, 2013 8:45 pm

mrmandrill wrote:If they can easily return their pi to this "factory" state that would make using them in lessons a lot easier.
I too have this need. Only for me "factory" state means original image + all updates.

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Thu May 23, 2013 8:46 pm

johnbeetem wrote:
OtherCrashOverride wrote:
So, what was your problem, Bunky?
I too have no idea who Bunky is or what it is in refernce to.
Amazing -- for some reason there's no reference to it on Wikipedia.

There's an old [USA and maybe elsewhere] comedy routine entitled "What's the matter, Bunky?" where an old codger is trying to console his friend "Bunky" by sympathetically listing his woes in a deadpan with sappy music and then tries to cheer him up with unrelated positive "happy talk" with celebratory music. You never hear Bunky's voice -- he's obviously too depressed to reply. It was used at least twice on [USA TV show] Fractured Flickers (1963) where the voice-over is illustrated with hilarious excerpts from silent movies ("flickers") and stock footage, but I suspect the routine goes back much further, perhaps early radio or vaudeville.

It generally begins "What's the matter, Bunky? Is the world not treating you right?" and then goes into a specific problem like: "You say it's Mother's Day and you're having trouble with your mother?"

You need the visuals and audio to appreciate it. Check out Fractured Flickers episodes 7 (mother) and 10 (wife).

[edits shown in brackets]
Well at least you can listen to the "old codger" Eddie Lawrence here and here! There are a number of such recordings. He uses bunkie, fella, cousin, pal, booby, etc interchangeably. Bunkie is a perennial loser and everything is always going improbably wrong for him and the old philosopher advises him to "Well lift your head up high and take a walk in the sun with dignity and stick-to-it-ness and ya show the world, ya show the world where to get off. You'll never give up, never give up, never give up...that ship!" or with some such words. Very funny in a 1950s sort of way.

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Thu May 23, 2013 10:45 pm

PS Do you fancy starting a new thread on where you've got so far?
Me? Happy to. Though tomorrow when my brain is working again.

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Fri May 24, 2013 1:35 pm

Jim,

I have just been watching the vid about Wayland on the front page today and I think it finally answers all my questions re: remote display of applications. Pretty impressive.

Like for example, it showed Libre Office, an X app, operating in a Wayland window. Clearly Libre Office will work over a regular remote X connection and the fact that it can work on a local Wayland display does not take away from that. Libre Office may be a bad (to heavy weight) example of an app you might want to run over X but it shows the point.

I do still worry that future apps and widgets will some how "take the Wayland way" and become incapable of remote display). However...

In this modern web centric world remote apps are not provided by X but by HTTP. Its all web servers, web browsers and HTML5.

As such I'm starting to turn towards, "bugger X, just give me a fast local display so my browser can render and run my HTML5 app as fast as possible".

So, you got me convinced. Bring on the Wayland!

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Fri May 24, 2013 3:17 pm

simplesi wrote:I really don't know what it is to us muggles??? :(Simon
Have you read this:
http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/4053

and the linked blog posts. You can install the "technical demonstrator" to see what it's like.

The key thing is this makes composition very efficient. This makes the desktop feel more responsive and allows for nice features like zooming, fading, animations, non-square windows.

However if you want midori to render faster, this isn't the solution, as for the ten seconds you are waiting for a web page to load, probably only 10ms is spent in composition.

It does mean that whilst dragging windows, the updates will be smooth and the CPU will be low (rather than 100% you currently see).

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Fri May 24, 2013 5:46 pm

This Wayland stuff - good, innit? Almost as slick as RISC OS!

Coat on, going out

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Fri May 24, 2013 7:13 pm

dom.

It has to be something better than that.

What you are saying is that once we have the window of our browser or other application faded, slid, zoomed and generally brought onto stage like a Holywood movie star with spangles and banners it just sits there being the same slow old dog that it always was.

What we actually need is the GPU to be accelerating the webgl in that web browser so that we can get on an build/use web apps.

Yes, I know the GPU is probably not going to help Midori download and render all that complexity of modern web pages. But that is not what I want it to do. We have JavaScript going quite well with the Google V8 engine now. All we need is to down load a few K of JS and have it create our app in webgl. And I'm only talking simple 2D rendering with webgl as in http://lib.ivank.net/?p=demos

Wayland is cool but basically non-functional glitter. Or have I missed a point somewhere?

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Fri May 24, 2013 8:39 pm

Who the heck is the deranged, apparently not just sleep-deprived, but sanity-challenged in-DUH-vidual who has been impersonating me in this and a number of other threads? If I ever figure out who he is and meet him in a dark alley ...

"This thread is brought to you by the folks in the sparkling white coats from the National Schizophrenia Society. Remember, schizophrenia is the disease where you're never really alone! We now return you to your life, already in progress."

The envelope, please ... and the award for the ability to use Google to actually travel back in time goes to ... John Beetem! Beetem? Why I hardly even know him! Yes, Bunky, things haven't just gone from bad to worse, they've entered Dante's Inferno, where there is a ring reserved just for rabid Pi fans, those suffering from extreme Piety :roll:

I guess the next logical step is a "reality" TV show, right? Where am I ever going to find a bevy of beauties so sexy as to be able to offset my sorry countenance, though? They also have to be at least as insane as me collectively as there's no way any single other person could possibly be as looney as moi, although I have heard late night talk show jokes that suggest that may not be quite accurate. Besides, how am I going to fit in a TV? Even the biggest ones diagonally are so skinny in depth that I could go on a cardboard and water diet and still not fit. I tell ya, life out here on The Bleeding Edge makes one want to be a cut-up, if not just a cut-out character.

Ummm ... what did I come in here for, anyway? :P
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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Fri May 24, 2013 8:43 pm

Heater wrote:Jim,
So, you got me convinced. Bring on the Wayland!
OMG, a convert! Quick, what page of The Wholly Babble is that baptismal ceremony described on before I drown another prospect??? :lol:
This is getting embarrassing with you making a habit of agreeing with me, twice now ... ;)
The best things in life aren't things ... but, a Pi comes pretty darned close! :D
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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Fri May 24, 2013 9:24 pm

Heater wrote: It has to be something better than that.

What you are saying is that once we have the window of our browser or other application faded, slid, zoomed and generally brought onto stage like a Holywood movie star with spangles and banners it just sits there being the same slow old dog that it always was.

What we actually need is the GPU to be accelerating the webgl in that web browser so that we can get on an build/use web apps.
Indeed. And this is being worked on. But that is a different piece of work.
Wayland will allow GL windows to be supported making proper GL desktop apps possible.

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Fri May 24, 2013 9:28 pm

Jim Manley wrote:The envelope, please ... and the award for the ability to use Google to actually travel back in time goes to ... John Beetem! Beetem? Why I hardly even know him! Yes, Bunky, things haven't just gone from bad to worse, they've entered Dante's Inferno, where there is a ring reserved just for rabid Pi fans, those suffering from extreme Piety :roll:
Thanks for the award, Jim. I didn't use Google. Since "Bunky" wasn't on Wikipedia, I didn't search further. I dimly remembered Fractured Flickers from when it first aired in 1963 -- my Dad is a fan of all things Jay Ward so Flickers was a must-see. Imagine my delight when my older daughter got me the complete series on DVD last Christmas. I've been savoring them ever since, and was utterly delighted when the first "Bunky" segment came on.

For the 99.999% of you who have never heard of Fractured Flickers, they take bits from silent movies, early talkies, and stock footage, rearrange the images, add silly dialog and sound effects, and music to create hilarious short films. It was done by the same people who did Rocky and Bullwinkle (and the rest of the Jay Ward oeuvre) so the voices and music are very familiar. Hans Conried (who voiced Snidley Whiplash on "Dudley Do-Right") is the host of the show. Expect lots of bad puns, like the transformation of Zorro into "The Barber of Stanwyck".

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Sat May 25, 2013 12:59 am

dom wrote:
Heater wrote: What we actually need is the GPU to be accelerating the webgl in that web browser so that we can get on an build/use web apps.
Indeed. And this is being worked on. But that is a different piece of work.
Wayland will allow GL windows to be supported making proper GL desktop apps possible.
I like the sound of that.

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Sat May 25, 2013 4:36 am

Yes, it all sounds great.

I must apologise for being so greedy about webgl and such. It's just that once you have some good Pi you want more Pi and then more Pi and then...

@Jim, I'm glad to hear you are not a victim of West Point. I had the misfortune that one became a boss of mine a few years back. His overwhelming self importance and general "I'm the boss and I'm right" attitude coupled with a general lack of understanding of anything much nearly sank the entire company. Well, actually it did sink. I went on to work for the guys who salvaged the wreck and it floated back up to it's former success.

Did I agree with you twice? I must have been drunk. I'll try and keep that in check in future:)

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Sat May 25, 2013 8:10 am

Heater wrote:Yes, it all sounds great.

I must apologise for being so greedy about webgl and such. It's just that once you have some good Pi you want more Pi and then more Pi and then...
Problem with keeping on asking for more is that it's demoralising for those actually working on stuff. If, every time something you spent the last month working on in your spare time on gets released, your get a chorus of "Why doesn't it do this and this isn't what I wanted and it should do this because the job I need it for is really important and I can't be arsed to look at the source and do it myself even though it really easy. ", well, it's somewhat annoying. Esp. when the people doing the work are often unpaid volunteers....(although the Foundation is pushing quite a bit of cash in to paying for this sort of thing to be done)
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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Sat May 25, 2013 9:01 am

jamesh,

Yes, I do understand that. That's why I was aplogoising. I know the feeling well, often in my work requirements are not specified very clearly and the guys who ordered the stuff seem to have a hard time remembering what we agreed was going to be delivered and when. Then they start with "where is this and where is that" questions. That feeling must be a thousand time worse when it is a voluntary effort. I have only been involved in very minor hobby projects that I put out in the wild and have had similar demands comming back. I do sympathise.

On the other hand look at the bright side. A couple of times I have seen guys putting out really slick projects and getting inundated with feature requests. What it means is that there are lot of people who use the thing. If your project were useless and or crappy you would not get people annoying you with demands for more and more. You are going to have over a million users out there most of whom will be very happy, some of whom are going to get annoying. Look at it as a compliment. For every one of those annoying voices just listen to the sound of a thousand silent but happy users.

I'm very impressed that the Foundation is pushing this along. Every one at the Foundation constantly impresses with what they have done and are doing.

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Sat May 25, 2013 11:21 am

I see that Eben stated yesterday that Wayland will probably replace X11 later this year. What is the time-line for NOOBS? "Interesting" choice of an acronym, giving the impression that it is for newbies.
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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Sat May 25, 2013 12:13 pm

pjc123 wrote:What is the time-line for NOOBS?
Very soon. I'd hope within the next week. But like most things, it will ship when it's ready.

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Re: Maker Fairey Tales - NOOBS and Pidora and Wayland, Oh My

Sat May 25, 2013 12:18 pm

As Dom has indicated the new recovery software will be available to download this week.

Hopefully all the testing work will pay off and it'll just work(TM)

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