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abishur
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Re: Windows 8?

Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:00 pm

My only desire for a windows based r-pi would be ease of integration. I've used linux a lot and there's always some weird ghost in the shell when it comes to getting SMB working correctly. I get it in the end, but if I had the choice I rather have out of the box instant integration. Until Linux hits that point it's a big stumbling block. (this is coming from a huge fan of Linux with two PCs in his house running it)
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Svartalf
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Re: Windows 8?

Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:39 pm

Quote from toxibunny on August 19, 2011, 10:16
Well yeah. Familiarity. Plus it's no doubt going to be popular, so that means lots of software...

Heh... Opposite thinking. For each and every application you want to run, you will have to have that particular vendor RECOMPILE it. This is an ARM CPU, it will never run X86 code without emulation- and you're going to find that it won't run well (for even relatively small values thereof...) on anything less than at least an A15 based device- and even then, it's going to be...special.

"Familiarity" is it's ONLY selling point. Seriously. And it's not in keeping with the project's stated goals. You need dev tools that're going to be effectively free or inexpensive, most of which wouldn't be the case with Windows. You've got some notable good tools, but nothing compared to the breadth there with Linux.

Svartalf
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Re: Windows 8?

Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:40 pm

Quote from abishur on August 19, 2011, 14:00
My only desire for a windows based r-pi would be ease of integration. I've used linux a lot and there's always some weird ghost in the shell when it comes to getting SMB working correctly. I get it in the end, but if I had the choice I rather have out of the box instant integration. Until Linux hits that point it's a big stumbling block. (this is coming from a huge fan of Linux with two PCs in his house running it)

SMB working? Server or client side?

Svartalf
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Re: Windows 8?

Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:41 pm

Quote from ShiftPlusOne on August 19, 2011, 10:27
Lots of x86/64 software perhaps, but I doubt Windows will ever overtake linux on embedded and mobile devices.

Lots of software, yes... But it's X86 code and that means it won't run on this device without a recompile. (We won't get into the reality that 90-99% of that software's rubbish to begin with... ;) )

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abishur
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Re: Windows 8?

Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:35 pm

Quote from Svartalf on August 19, 2011, 16:40
Quote from abishur on August 19, 2011, 14:00
My only desire for a windows based r-pi would be ease of integration. I've used linux a lot and there's always some weird ghost in the shell when it comes to getting SMB working correctly. I get it in the end, but if I had the choice I rather have out of the box instant integration. Until Linux hits that point it's a big stumbling block. (this is coming from a huge fan of Linux with two PCs in his house running it)

SMB working? Server or client side?

Both actually. I usually have things set up in a peer-to-peer style network with each computer acting as both a server for the other computers and a client to the other computers in the network. Usually speaking there's always some problem with getting file sharing set up (especially with the latest editions of windows). I'm good enough with linux to get it worked out in the end, but it's always annoying to get it all working, instead of simply going this is my workgroup/domain name and bam! you're good to go.
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jeicrash
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Re: Windows 8?

Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:23 pm

Don't take this the wrong way as I am not the greatest at conveying emotion in text.

First putting windows on a device like this is moot. The reason being stated several times in previous posts. All windows software is x86 which means it won't run on ARM.
Second the base r-pi system may have 128-256mb of ram which a part will be used by video/etc. So the resources alone would make it a nightmare, sure you can add flags to ignore hardware checks and such for setup and get windows on a 700mhz 128mb system, but after that there are very few ways of shutting down Windows system services to allow anything of use to run.
The cost of the device SCREAMS hacker/geek/nerd/tinker device in which you won't find many hardcore must have Windows based solutions.
I have seen people complain about having to purchase an SD card yet no one seams to even blink at adding $100+ LEGAL Windows license at a sub $50.00 device? Forgive me here but am I missing something?

As for being familiar there are several themes out that will make a GUI desktop look like windows. but in the end most people using this device will probably be doing heavy duty work from the command line. I can only see putting a full blown desktop on this system if you want to offer a low power, self contained system that can be used to surf the web, check email, office software, etc. Once released I plan on buying as many as I can afford for several projects, one being possibly trying to get the local school system to adopt them as low cost computers for students to use with an e-book reader for text books instead of the 100-300 bucks it costs for each book.

Bottom line I'm trying to convey I guess is that there are so many more uses for computers then slapping windows on them and firing up solitaire. Linux is completely capable of doing Facebook, Flash, Video chat, graphic design, web development, and pretty much anything Windows can do. Sure the alternatives have their steep learning curves in some cases, but so did the Windows based software when it first started being used. The r-pi is an awsome concept and I hope to see many projects sprout from it's small board.

mateli
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Re: Windows 8?

Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:37 pm

Quote from Svartalf on August 18, 2011, 22:14
Quote from mateli on August 18, 2011, 21:18
So there has been some work on porting Wine to ARM


This would be interesting, after a fashion...but not so much so on the R-Pi. You're likely to need a Cortex A8/[A9/A15 based device to make it better than a curiosity


That really pends on what Windows 8 ARM apps that will be available.



and there is plans to port CentOS to ARM.


Heh... All you need do is largely recompile it. I could "port" CentOS to ARM if I really, really wanted to- so could CentOS.


Sorry but i meant to write ReactOS... I should probably not be reading about one OS while writing about another... :)



If we wanna run Windows app the creation on a "Wine CE" for ARM would be an option,


No, it won't.

1) You need a license to make a BSP for it. It's $9999 or so for that.
2) Even if you splunged for that, you're going to have to make a BSP for the devices.
3) WinCE, while it LOOKS like Windows, isn't Windows- and Windows apps will not run without moderate modifications and a recompile in it.


We do not really know what Windows 8 will be. It is fully possible that it will actually be based on CE. The kernel is not NT but the API is a subset of Windows API, so it pends on how you define Windows.
You would not need a BSB in order to make a Wine CE. What you need is a loader (As CE exe files are not standard PE executables) and patches to the API in order to generate CE-compatible dll:s



Another option would be to combine Wine sources with Win CE sources. They are totally license-incompatible but it would be technically possible if we disregard the legal issues...


Uh, no. NEVER disregard licensing issues. In this case, if you did this at all, succeeding or not, you'd be violating the LGPL of the WINE License AND Microsoft's license. If you want an object lesson in why you shouldn't even THINK about this sort of thing, Google for "busybox verizon actiontec" and do a bit of reading. If you thought the FOSS bunch was rough with them on this instance, you'd be facing similar- and Microsoft will make THAT look like a Sunday Picnic.


There are plenty of projects that does that. Yeah what they produce are not legal and violates the license of most source-code they use. That usually discourages a lot of developers but still such projects exists. For example there was a fork of ReactOS that intended to reverse engineer the NT kernel. However most such projects are short-lived and tend to fail in attracting developers...



but personally i would prefer a pure Wine CE for ARM under the GPL...


Unless you've got a PDA app you want to run, WHY? WinCE is NOT Windows. It looks like Windows. It sort of programs LIKE Windows, but it will not run Windows apps. Only WinCE ones.

The only Windows app that will currently run on ARM are CE apps. For many ppl "looks like Windows" is sufficient. Also we still have no idea of what Windows 8 will be. All we know so far is that it will run on ARM and have a fancy GUI. We don't even know if it will be based on an existing kernel like NT or CE. It is probable that not even Redmond knows.

mateli
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Re: Windows 8?

Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:50 pm

Quote from jeicrash on August 19, 2011, 19:23
I have seen people complain about having to purchase an SD card yet no one seams to even blink at adding $100+ LEGAL Windows license at a sub $50.00 device? Forgive me here but am I missing something?

Legal? Yeah, right... I think that's what you are missing... :)

On the other hand if the device gain a lot of volume it may be tempting for Microsoft to create a Windows version that will work on it, like they did with one laptop per child. If they have any brains they will adapt software pricing to the hardware cost...

sightlight
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Re: Windows 8?

Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:54 am

Microsoft doing that for 25 bucks is a little big unprovable.

jeicrash
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Re: Windows 8?

Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:50 am

If microsoft decides to jump on the arm bandwagon that would be cool, don't get me wrong they have their usefulness maybe they will listen to the years of people howling about releasing older version to the open source community, but I won't hold my breath just yet.

plrw
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Re: Windows 8?

Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:04 pm

Lob0426 said:


The cost for a Microsoft SDK (Software Developers Kit) would be a stumbling block all by itself. Usually these things are thousands of dollars.


Hmm, to which SDK's are you refering ? The Windows SDK is free, the .NET SDK is free, the Windows Mobile Phone SDK is free, the XNA Game Studio is free and they have a bunch of Express versions of Visual Studio and SQL server for free that are very capable.

Why spread misinformation ?

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RaTTuS
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Re: Windows 8?

Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:12 pm

SDK is not free and why are you necroing
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plrw
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Re: Windows 8?

Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm

RaTTuS said:


SDK is not free and why are you necroing


Which specific SDK are you refering to ? They are all free or a have a free version.

It's certainly a blatant lie that all microsoft SDK's costs thousands of dollars.

(I dont think answering a  a 5 months old post is "necroing")

kevco
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Re: Windows 8?

Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:36 pm

This reply is probably getting off topic I suppose but just to put the question to rest the Windows SDK is free and has been for as long as I've known.

http://www.microsoft.com/downl.....px?id=3138

Maybe you mean it is not rms-style free, but it is free as in there is no cost to obtain it.  Or maybe you are thinking of an MSDN subscription but that is not the SDK and is not required for Windows development.

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