stuartlea
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:27 pm

Robert_M said:


hippy said:


…It should come as no surprise that things have not turned out to be as simple as some may have imagined but it should be no surprise to anyone who has been involved in manufacturing or retail.


Exactly this.


I'd be sh*tting myself waiting for a board to go through compliance testing knowing that I had a warehouse with 10k already made….Boards fail compliance testing every day and sometimes the only thing you can do is scrap it and start again..It's happened to me and it's a horrible experience and I was testing just the one!

jamodio
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:29 pm

I'll copy here what I put as a comment on the related post in the home page ...

What I don’t really understand why there are so many folks overreacting on a defensive manner with some lame excuses like RPF is a “charity”, “they intended this or that”, “the end goal is this or that”, etc, etc.

I don’t believe anybody is blaming or accusing RPF of bad faith, or whatever, what is it clear is that the launch was not as successful as many kool-aid drinking heads pretend to believe, totally understandable, RPF screwed up, was there a better way to do it, probably, but the past has to be just a learning lesson for whatever is done in the future, and what it is quite clear is that RPF needs help to move this to the next level, and not talking heads or carbon based answering automatons, cut the hype level a little bit and bring back the end mission to the front page and as the main topic of discussion.

Trying to make everybody happy and putting an unfinished product for the general market and creating so much expectation will backfire and become a nightmare for RPF, the developers and the distributors.

No harm if with a wide criteria you qualify who is and who is not a developer, and yes include some end users as test subjects, and you say, listen the final product will be available in Q1 2013, meanwhile we are offering a limited number (which still can be a big number) of developers the opportunity to test, debug, develop, contribute, etc, so the end product becomes much much better.

This is just an opinion, and I hope the best for RPF and their mission, as a hardware/firmware developer and computer science and networking nerd, I’m still excited to have at some time the opportunity to contribute with more than 30 years of experience. I’ve two young kids and I’d love to let them learn to program and how computers work using a Raspi, and have them feel the same thrill as I felt when I put my hands on the first microprocessor kit, or the Sinclair, or TI-99, or Commodore-64 or Atari, or Apple I/II, you name it.

Raspi has the magic to bring back those days and let dinosaurs of electronics and computer science like me to transmit those feelings and knowledge to new generations.
So cut it out with the defensive mode and switch to constructive mode.

jamodio
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:40 pm

nmcc said:


Even if only 1% of the recipients of the first batch result in some cool stuff to further the aims of the Foundation, that would have brought the project further along than can possibly be imagined.

Delaying the first batch / developer release runs the risk of losing hearts & minds & enthusiasm - or even pushing things too far in to the year to allow a well fleshed out package for the September start of school year.

The currently evolved definition of 'news' is a substantive event - often with hints that there were things going on in the background - in this instance it's clear RS started some compliance investigation 10 days ago. It would help settle us all that this project is moving forward if the news were made smaller bites more frequently.

If we are going to be faced with further substantial delays, why not ask for submissions for project proposals and sell boards to those that can do something useful with them?


Totally agree, I'd be more than happy to contribute some of my time and more $ than it takes to cover the cost of one or two boards, that way RPF will not be selling me the board then no compliance/certification required. Like that as a group of developers we are putting together a pull of $ to cover the production costs of the first batch of developer oriented boards.

Even I'd had shipped to folks willing to take care themselves to fix the RJ45 hiccup, a board and the spare RJ45 with integrated magnetics.

Before the "launch" day was already a huge expectation build up, if we keep putting more pressure the balloon is going to blow up.

I'm amazed to keep seeing tweets and re-tweets saying "Raspberry Pi computer now available for $25.

poing
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:48 pm

jamodio said:


So cut it out with the defensive mode and switch to constructive mode.


What 'defensive mode'? It's obvious at some point the project grew bigger than the RPF could smoothly handle. So what? If you want to be constructive just brush away the disappointment you might feel for not getting your new toy 'now' and stop complaining. It will come eventually.

jamodio
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:56 pm

poing said:


What 'defensive mode'? It's obvious at some point the project grew bigger than the RPF could smoothly handle. So what? If you want to be constructive just brush away the disappointment you might feel for not getting your new toy 'now' and stop complaining. It will come eventually.


Hmm, I'm not complaining, am I disappointed ?, probably yes, I didn't build up the hype and expectation or failed to deliver ...

Toy ? what toy ? I don't see this as a toy.

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abishur
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:58 pm

jamodio said:



What I don’t really understand why there are so many folks overreacting on a defensive manner with some lame excuses like RPF is a “charity”, “they intended this or that”, “the end goal is this or that”, etc, etc.


I can't speak for others, but I know that when I post, I'm just answering questions.  People want to know why they didn't plan for this, the answer is because they intended them to be development boards.  That's not a defensive answer, that's a fact.  I agree with the charity response.  The RPF has never gone "but we're a charity" and I dislike it when people try to cheapen their work by saying "oh but they're doing amazing for a charity" They've done good work for any type of group that's this small and have never tried to twist things around just because they're a charity (which technically they're a non-profit, but that's a matter of semantics)
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

poing
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:05 pm

jamodio said:


poing said:


What 'defensive mode'? It's obvious at some point the project grew bigger than the RPF could smoothly handle. So what? If you want to be constructive just brush away the disappointment you might feel for not getting your new toy 'now' and stop complaining. It will come eventually.


Hmm, I'm not complaining, am I disappointed ?, probably yes, I didn't build up the hype and expectation or failed to deliver ...

Toy ? what toy ? I don't see this as a toy.


No, but you obviously missed that the RPF is just a bunch of 'geeks' setting this up in their free time based on idealism. So what's with 'failed to deliver'? It's not Apple your dealing with.

Not a toy? It's crucial for your income or the health of your family? Please, enough already!

jamodio
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:08 pm

Abishur said:


I can't speak for others, but I know that when I post, I'm just answering questions.


Who said you don't ? Do you get what I mean about defensive answers ?

jamodio
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:11 pm

poing said:


Not a toy? It's crucial for your income or the health of your family? Please, enough already!


Nope, I'm also full of ideailsm ...

poing
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:14 pm

jamodio said:


poing said:


Not a toy? It's crucial for your income or the health of your family? Please, enough already!


Nope, I'm also full of ideailsm ...


Well then, quit the attack mode and be a bit more constructive.


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abishur
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:06 pm

jamodio said:


Abishur said:


I can't speak for others, but I know that when I post, I'm just answering questions.


Who said you don't ? Do you get what I mean about defensive answers ?



I'm not sure what your first question is trying to ask, but as for the second yeah, there are certainly people who can turn an otherwise worthwhile conversation of questions and answers or points and counterpoints and mess up the flow by being defensive where there is no need to be.  But I also know that the opposite side is true and sadly true more often.  In recent weeks the forum has been filled with more and more needless attacking people rehashing the same tripe when the answers could be found fairly easily by taking a minute to look around, so I can understand why some people have taken an overly defensive position.  Both sides need to lay off so that people with constructive dialog can return.

But like I said, I
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hippy
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:12 pm

nmcc said:

It would help settle us all that this project is moving forward if the news were made smaller bites more frequently.
I think we need to know the big picture as it stands now. Since 'launch' the roadmap has become less than clear and no one seems exactly sure what's planned and when.

Like having a train or bus delayed, one doesn't want to know there's one coming sometime in the future, but when. It's human nature and the mutterings, conspiracy theories and speculation grow in the absence of definitive information.

We may not have any right to such information, but I think it would really help if people knew. Not just those who pre-ordered, ordered later in the day, but those who are holding off ordering for now.

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johnbeetem
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:18 pm

Stuart Lea said:

I'd be [in a high state of anxiety] waiting for a board to go through compliance testing knowing that I had a warehouse with 10k already made….Boards fail compliance testing every day and sometimes the only thing you can do is scrap it and start again..It's happened to me and it's a horrible experience and I was testing just the one!
Well, I suppose if this happened RasPi could sell the 10K to "registered developers only".  It would be a bother that they'd rather avoid, but better than scrapping the boards -- and they'd be collector's items.

OTOH, from what I've seen of the layout they did a great job with the high-speed signals so radiation compliance should probably be OK and just be a nuisance with paperwork.

jamodio
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:22 pm

John Beetem said:


OTOH, from what I've seen of the layout they did a great job with the high-speed signals so radiation compliance should probably be OK and just be a nuisance with paperwork.


If what is posted in the Wiki/Home page as the Final PCB artwork is the layout for the current boards under testing, you can clearly see that consideration has been taken to have some high speed traces of equal length and controlled impedance, not sure if the layout included some optimization EMI/EMC, hard to say from the publically avaliable images.

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SN
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:00 pm

If you put it in a metal box would compliance be straightforward?
Steve N – binatone mk4->intellivision->zx81->spectrum->cbm64->cpc6128->520stfm->pc->raspi ?

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Grumpy Mike
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

If you put it in a metal box would compliance be straightforward?

No sometimes it makes things worse. I don't see the problem with a development system, I buy them all the time from Farnell. For example the STM32F4 discovery board for £10 (Arm chip and much more I/O than the Pi) has been built in quantities that are much greater than the 10K of the Pi and Farnell still sell them without compliance testing.

You can't tell if something is going to pass EM radiation testing from the layout, if you could then there would be much less reworking of product. However, you can tell if something is going to fail. I have put many consumer products through compliance testing of all sorts. I will be very surprised if something that spits out HD TV signals and a processor that clocks at the speed it does is compliant without a case. Years ago I designed a set top box and the theory was that a plastic box would make compliance easier. It did not and there were problems. A bit different from the metal box solution but both gave problems that needed fixing.

Another thing that concerns me is the power supply, in order to get compliance it will have to be used with a specific power supply and I don't believe the current Pi includes a power supply.

Phil Spiegel
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:55 pm

As I recall, when Acorn started/tried to sell the BBC Micro into the USA, the cases all had to be screened to meet compliance rules (sprayed nickel screening I assume)

Probably something that those proposing cases for th Rpi should also consider?

I also assume that those who put PCs and Beagle boards into Perspex(R) /Acrylic cases with blue LEDs and water cooling.... don't check their EM radiations (or does the cooling water absorb it all???? )

jamodio
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:12 pm

SN said:


If you put it in a metal box would compliance be straightforward?


In some cases it may work, if you carry a long copper rod that you bury on earth and connect via a thick wire to the box.

Still some EMI can radiate out of connectors and other wires attached to it.

It's not trivial.

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jojopi
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:22 pm

Phil Spiegel said:


As I recall, when Acorn started/tried to sell the BBC Micro into the USA, the cases all had to be screened to meet compliance rules (sprayed nickel screening I assume)


Take a look at the pictures of the US and especially the German model at:

http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/Co.....ml#BBCDEUS

They did not use sprayed screening.  I can also confirm that the untreated BBC Micro blocked FM radio reception of weak signals over many meters radius.

But I would be surprised if an uncased RasPi had any effect at even one meter.

arm2
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:47 am

jojopi said:


Phil Spiegel said:


As I recall, when Acorn started/tried to sell the BBC Micro into the USA, the cases all had to be screened to meet compliance rules (sprayed nickel screening I assume)


Take a look at the pictures of the US and especially the German model at:

http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/Co.....ml#BBCDEUS

They did not use sprayed screening. ...



Phil I think you are thinking of the RiscPC, early shipments of which were plain ABS plastic. Then they started coating the inside surfaces, later again they put an earthing strap from the four slot backplane to part of the coated case.

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bwoodbury
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:20 pm

Farnell updated their FAQ on the Element 14 website today as follows

UPDATED AT 8:51 am GMT 26 March

Q.  What is the latest update ?

A. COMPLIANCE TESTING - Over the weekend, Raspberry Pi provide us with an update on the compliance testing needed for the Model B boards. Originally, they had intended to defer compliance testing until the release of the cased educational boards. But, as demand has been so high for even the uncased version, we've agreed that this testing should happen now instead of later. Raspberry Pi did a first trial run in a test chamber and will have a detailed technical update for us in the next few days. It is still too early to say what this will mean for deliveries and we hope any impact will be minimal. The first batch of boards are due to arrive in the UK this week. We are working closely with the guys from the Raspberry Pi Foundation to understand how this compliance testing will impact delivery dates for our customers and the impact, if any, on future orders that were originally expected to be delivered in April, May and June. We will communicate to all of our Raspberry Pi customers in the coming days once the testing is underway and we have a clearer picture. To view the full raspberry Pi update by Eben Upton, please click here: http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/852

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Frank Buss
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:15 pm

Sounds a bit suspicious: "Raspberry Pi did a first trial run in a test chamber". And no results? From the tests I've seen, you know immediately by viewing the curves on the measurement devices, if you passed or failed, and you can try to fix it on the spot, if failed, like trying different cases or adding ferrite rings on cables etc. Maybe they first want to find a supplier of 10,000 metal cases before they wrote about the tests?

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abishur
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:34 pm

Frank Buss said:


Sounds a bit suspicious: "Raspberry Pi did a first trial run in a test chamber". And no results? From the tests I've seen, you know immediately by viewing the curves on the measurement devices, if you passed or failed, and you can try to fix it on the spot, if failed, like trying different cases or adding ferrite rings on cables etc. Maybe they first want to find a supplier of 10,000 metal cases before they wrote about the tests?



Technically they said that "[The] Raspberry Pi [Foundation] did a first trial run in a test chamber and will have a detailed technical update for us in the next few days" So what they're really saying is that either the RPF has not released the test results to them yet *or* that they have released them, but for one reason or another neither party is commenting about it yet.  While that does seem a little odd, I also know enough about contracts and NDAs to know that they have wacky requirements and it's more likely that both sides are having go through any process outlined in their agreements with one another than it is that something has gone catastrophically wrong with the CE process.
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jamodio
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:34 pm

The lack of concrete information and misinformation seems to be growing at the same pace as the excitement before Feb 29, 06:00GMT.

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johnbeetem
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Re: New RS Email - Compliance?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:45 pm

This is not intended as a serious suggestion, but what about shipping Model B's with the Ethernet jack unsoldered (since they're having so much trouble getting them in China) and with an unsoldered GPIO header?  Then it's a kit, right? 

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