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Morgaine
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:36 pm

I've noticed a worrying trend over the last few days:  the admins are moving various discussions about Raspberry Pi communications and board delivery to the Off Topic forum, and even closing some of them off to deny discussion.

This is totally inappropriate.  If it's about Raspberry Pi then it belongs right here.

If you think that the General Discussion forum is growing too unwieldy (yes I agree, it is) then add more forums on specific subtopics.  They don't cost anything to add.  But moving very reasonable discussions about Raspberry Pi to Off Topic is disrespectful to the community that made the Rpi so popular.
Intolerance is a failure of education. Education is predicated on tolerance of the uneducated.

Kernel
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:44 pm

They are moved because they start discussing all manner of topics such as in general the way firms should operate or treat their customers rather than specifics.

Other topics are closed to avoid fragmenting discussion over many topics.

I expect no new sub-forums will be made until the new software in installed

Smartybones
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:48 pm

actually, I think the mods are quite lax compared to some boards...

and some subjects really do belong in the off topic and closed particularly when there are so many repeat threads about the same thing..... usually bitching about delivery times.... which is nothing to do with pi or the foundation, so I would agree in closing them and moving them to off topic.

as to it not costing anything to add more forums or sub topics. not in a direct fiscal cost, no... but it would need additional mods to cover the additional grounds...

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Morgaine
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:07 pm

Smartybones said:


actually, I think the mods are quite lax compared to some boards...



It sounds like you're encouraging the kind of fascist admin behaviour that is seen on Apple boards, where posters are treated as pitiful consumers to be ignored and dissenters are treated as terrorists.  I don't recommend you encourage that kind of admin behaviour.

Rpi has always been an open and friendly community where people speak openly about their concerns.  We all benefit if it stays that way.

Smartybones said:


..... usually bitching about delivery times.... which is nothing to do with pi or the foundation



Wrong.  The first batch was ordered by the Foundation themselves, and they were also responsible for getting the incorrect RJ45 sockets replaced.  Therefore they are fully informed about delivery times *out* of the factory for the 1st batch, without needing any information about what happens later within Farnell and RS.  This is information that they could give us if they wanted to continue the openness of the preceding months.
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Kernel
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:13 pm

Morgaine said:


Smartybones said:


actually, I think the mods are quite lax compared to some boards...


It sounds like you're encouraging the kind of fascist admin behaviour that is seen on Apple boards, where posters are treated as pitiful consumers to be ignored and dissenters are treated as terrorists.  I don't recommend you encourage that kind of admin behaviour.

Rpi has always been an open and friendly community where people speak openly about their concerns.  We all benefit if it stays that way.


I don't think he is encouraging anything (not least fascism) - but rather comparing how this forum works compared to the majority of forums on the internet - and he is correct in stating that the admins here allow a lot more leeway than the ones on some other forums (I have never been to nor want to go to the apple forums so I can't comment on that)

You are right about it being open and friendly - many people have commented to me how nice this forum is - but perhaps some of your colourful language isn't in keeping with that spirit.

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MattHawkinsUK
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:43 pm

Being blunt, I'm fed up of reading about RS, Farnell and delivery dates. People are getting the chance to order in turn and delivery dates are being supplied. It's boring now. Repeated threads on delivery dates are pointless and ARE off-topic now because the forum is to discuss the product not discuss another companies logistics.

RS and Farnell were disorganised, the factory messed up and now there is a big wait.

There is nothing left to discuss.
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:08 pm

An interesting point of view which isn't helped by your wading in with complaints that moderator action to bring some sanity to the forums is "totally inappropriate" or that its "disrespectful to the community".

Posts are moved about only when it seems that their general thrust is out of keeping with the general tenor of the forum they've been originally posted in.  Its not disrespectful or inappropriate to do so, ALL forums are for discussion.  Locking is employed when the topic has been discussed to death before and where a modicum of searching could have found the answers requested.  In some cases posts are locked whilst consultation takes place before more considered action is taken. It is rare that threads are summarily deleted, and even rarer that members are banned.

I'm sorry that you take exception to the way in which the repeated complaints about the ordering situation have been treated. However, its now over two weeks since the Raspberry Pi went on sale and both Farnell and RS are addressing the problems the initial demand caused. 200000 into 10000 does not go and there's no point in someone whining that they didn't get one/their order has been put back/they're going to be charged delivery and taxes on top of the $35 AND SO ON.  Its pretty evident that all that can be said about the matter has been said.  Many threads remain open so views can be expressed but there is no point in starting new threads on the same old topics.  And that inappropriate action is the behaviour of a person who has no respect for the community

The forum moderators are, in the main, volunteers who are here to keep the peace, stop the place turning into an echo chamber and keep an eye open for more or less abusive trolling. Not many members get banned or locked out.  Few threads get deleted, few get locked, even fewer get moved.  Harmony all round (almost).   I like to think we're doing a good job.
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:46 pm

Hear, hear. Good job admin guys!
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:49 pm

Move? Lock? Delete? ... What would YOU do?

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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:54 pm

I have no problem with the Admins either moving a thread to off topic or closing it when it is dealing with the same subject as other threads. Good job so far.

I check all the forums to see what new posts there are irrespective of which forum they might be in. As for moving the "communication" thread to off topic it doesn't seem to have resulted in no one being able to find it and post. There were 38 posts when it was moved and 66 posts now

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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:01 pm

Lynbarn said:


Move? Lock? Delete? … What would YOU do?


Perhaps lock AND move…

edit: Bloody Tablet keyboard!
I'm just a bouncer, splatterers do it with more force.....

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:58 pm

Morgaine said:



It sounds like you're encouraging the kind of fascist admin behaviour that is seen on Apple boards, where posters are treated as pitiful consumers to be ignored and dissenters are treated as terrorists.  I don't recommend you encourage that kind of admin behaviour.


Not bad. Only fourth post in the thread and Godwin's law is invoked. And the poster is brand new to the forum with just a handful of posts in total. Can I put some money on Morgaine to be the next troll to be banned? He is bringing nothing new to the discussion. I do hope the new forum software has an ignore button.

Lock, move and warn.

Michael
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:08 am

I agree with the other admins - discussions about sales, batches, availability, manufacturing, ordering, delivery dates, taxes, postage charges and discussions about communications regarding the former are all implicitly or explicitly discussions about topics for which the authorised distributors are now responsible and are therefore off-topic for this forum.

Both companies have their own community areas including bulletin-board or forum.  RS has the Design Spark community, while Farnell has the Element 14 community.

If you wish to discuss any of the topics listed in my first paragraph, you are encouraged to discuss them directly with the distributors as you are much more likley to get an positive, authoritative and informed response to your questions or concerns.  If you are trying to effect change, you are more likley to succeed, and more quickly as staff from the two distributors don't hang out here much.

If you still want to discuss the above topics here, please use the off-topic category and please use an existing thread rather than creating a new one.

There is a plan to switch forum software in the next couple of months and after we do so, it is likely that some new sub-forums will be created including one for logistics and distributors.  Until then, such topics will be continue to be moved to the off-topic sub-forum.

Oh, and one final point.  As per the policy, if you wish to critisise the Foundation or its volunteers regarding inappropriate moderation, do so privately.  You are new to this community so I'll let you off on this occassion.

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Morgaine
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:30 am

Thank you Michael for pointing out that a primary reason for the problem is the lack of appropriate sub-forums currently, which will be fixed when the forum software is updated.

My point stands though:  discussions about any aspect of Raspberry Pi can never be "off topic" here.  The fact that some discussions are being moved to a place where they are out of sight is a short-term measure, and not ideal.

Fair enough, that's your choice, but personally I'd just add more subforums, now not later.  It would take 5 minutes of admin work, avoid this issue completely, support the Rpi community more effectively, and reduce the topic movement workload for admins.  A win for everybody.
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:34 am

Lynbarn said:


Move? Lock? Delete? … What would YOU do?


None of the above.

Topics that don't make it past the first couple of pages are done for already.  Let the natural process decide whether it's worthy of attention.

There are approximately a bazillion people interested in the Raspberry Pi.  Of those, a certain percentage find their way to raspberrypi.org.  Of those, a certain percentage find their way to the forum.  Of those, a certain percentage can be bothered to read the FAQ.  Of the remainder, a certain percentage are still enthusiastic enough to bother registering in the forums and making a post.  This is a large enough number to be a frustration to people who spend every waking hour on this forum, but a tiny fraction of the number of people for whom the phrase "Raspberry Pi" has fired a neuron.  So posts about "How can I buy one? Does it run Windows, Why couldn't I buy one on 29th February" are already from people with a more-than-negligable amount of interest in the project.

So just let somebody else answer them, let them drift down to page n of the forums by their own natural process, and be done with it.  The threads aren't doing any harm; all we can do it discourage potential users with "RTFM n00b" comments.

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Morgaine
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:45 am

Very insightful comment from peterpi.
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Jessie
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:06 am

Morgaine said:


I've noticed a worrying trend over the last few days:  the admins are moving various discussions about Raspberry Pi communications and board delivery to the Off Topic forum, and even closing some of them off to deny discussion.

This is totally inappropriate.  If it's about Raspberry Pi then it belongs right here.

If you think that the General Discussion forum is growing too unwieldy (yes I agree, it is) then add more forums on specific subtopics.  They don't cost anything to add.  But moving very reasonable discussions about Raspberry Pi to Off Topic is disrespectful to the community that made the Rpi so popular.


You don't get to decide what is appropreate and what isn't around here.  Discussions about the Pi belong here.  Complaining about the current and past purchasing situation is Off Topic because we don't handle the sales aspect and therefore it dosn't belong here.  And if you don't like taxes and shipping cost then you are just digging for something to complain about.  Aside from topics regaurding RS and Farnel I don't recall anything else being moved to Off Topic.  But, I am only one mod of twelve and we don't exactly talk to each other before moving topics that would bog us down too much.  Some of the nicer mods will discuss a topic before deleting it, but I don't even do that.  If I decide a topic warrants deletion I delete it and send a PM to the poster to knock it off.

I'm not even quite sure why this topic is left open since this is only due to become un-productive (if it even was in the first place.)  Plus according to the pinned thread at the top of this forum titled "Form and Blog Netiquette" it states the following:


1 – In this, the moderator's decision is binding.

2 – Complaints are NOT to be posted publically and must be sent directly to a moderator.  Responses (including Emails and PM's) are considered private and are NOT to be posted or otherwise circulated publically in whole or in any part.


Is this not a complaint that is posted publicly?

I see your issues, but we have to steer this forum in a direction that will help make it productive.  Part of that is keeping un-productive complaints and rants out of the main part of the forum.  Moving stuff was a polite way of allowing people to vent without shutting them down, but to be honest if it is just going to stir up threads like this I think it is time to just start deleting them.

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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:38 am

Jessie said:


You don't get to decide what is appropreate and what isn't around here.


Perfect !   I would have said that 15 posts before….

This topic is great proof of how the Mods here are polite and forgiving !  If some people can't understand this, I'm sorry for them…

It's a good thing they are *NOT* the majority!

Now, this has already wasted more energy than it is worth. Can someone PLEASE close it already ?

adlambert

Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:54 am

Generally a good forum but:

It IS more zealously moderated than most online forums, far more.

Supercilious "RTFM" replies are usually the domain of the lazy. People will often ask because they want an interactive exchange to help them understand something – forums are often called *discussion* forums for a reason. Brushing them off by telling them to search or RTFM comes across as unfriendly and arrogant and elitist, a trait so often associated with the Linux community unfortunately. (cue the denials, yes I"ve heard it all before, nothing changes)

Telling newcomers that their question is not going to be discussed and closing the thread….see above.

Imagine the poor kids, in class at school. Every time they approach their teacher for guidance on a point, they are told to go and look it up in the library? Teacher would be fired pretty quick. Of course, you CAN help people to help themselves, but the way I"ve seen it done round here often falls pretty short of that.

There are exceptions, of course, some people are trying.

I agree that order fulfilment moans are mostly inappropriate here.

Alchemy
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:35 am

I think the only problem is the Wiki does not mention the other forums.

This place behaves professionally. That is appropriate for an official source of news. Things are correct not best guesses.

The whole issue is simply solved by other forums. Without the official handicap.

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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:56 am

adlambert said:


Generally a good forum but:

It IS more zealously moderated than most online forums, far more.


Got to agree with this. This is certainly the most intrusively moderated forum that I've frequented recently (amongst the many that I regularly use). I was curious as to why this might be - whether the mods were relatively inexperienced or, perhaps more likely, whether people from the Linux-related world where the Pi interest mainly lies might typically prefer a more tightly ordered and structured forum compared to the world at large.

So I'd echo the same sentiments - you've got the basis of an excellent forum here but mods please just  r e l a x; barring the occasional offensive post, obvious attempted scam, trolls and purely ad hominem attacks (all of which can justifiably be dealt with), light touch moderation would make this a more pleasant place to be.

khulat
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:12 am

I personally think the moderation here is rather lax, there isn't even a wall of shame. It could even be more strict. I certainly don't want a forum that is filled with the usual drivel that is seen in places where moderation is nonexistent.

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Morgaine
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:14 am

I hope it's plainly visible to everyone how courteously and professionally the discussion in this thread is developing.  This is how good communities come to be, working out their issues openly and politely, and finding median solutions that keep everyone happy and feeling part of the family.
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:58 am

1. yes the people moaning about rs/farnell have made it mean i've not been checking this forum much in the last week as the page has been full of the same old gripes and people who appear to have been in hibernation. so doing *anything* with those posts is a good thing. i'm not a fan of locking posts because as you have seen, they tend to multiply and create uprisings, however polite they might be.

2. moderation here isn't SO bad, it IS a bit more 'touchy' than some other forums, but there is also a tendency for forum users to try rule the roost – jessie you will have to learn that proclaiming you are the ultimate power in the universe doesn't mean people will like it, or respect you because of it by default. people will always tell owners/admins/mods how to run the place – thats just how forums go. you're on the edge of a fine line that pushes people away from wanting to post here (and the only admin/mod that stuck out to me from day 1 when i signed up here) - but you probably wont be able to see that.
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jamesh
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Re: Discussions about Raspberry Pi are NOT off topic!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:02 am

prodata said:


adlambert said:


Generally a good forum but:

It IS more zealously moderated than most online forums, far more.


Got to agree with this. This is certainly the most intrusively moderated forum that I've frequented recently (amongst the many that I regularly use). I was curious as to why this might be - whether the mods were relatively inexperienced or, perhaps more likely, whether people from the Linux-related world where the Pi interest mainly lies might typically prefer a more tightly ordered and structured forum compared to the world at large.

So I'd echo the same sentiments - you've got the basis of an excellent forum here but mods please just  r e l a x; barring the occasional offensive post, obvious attempted scam, trolls and purely ad hominem attacks (all of which can justifiably be dealt with), light touch moderation would make this a more pleasant place to be.


Are you sure about over zealous moderation? I'm off the opinion (and I've moderated quite a bit of stuff), that this place is pretty lax - lots of comparison thread, quite a bit of criticism etc which would certainly be deleted in many other forums based on products. As far as I am concerned, your list ' barring the occasional offensive post, obvious attempted scam, trolls and purely ad hominem attacks' is basically what we do. I'm not sure anything more aggressive than that is done (at least frequently - I'm not saying it might not have happened a couple of time).

In fact, I would be happy for someone to produce a list of  any overly  aggressive moderation, because I can think of practically no examples whatsoever.
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