photomankc
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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:32 am

Wow.... that's, that is an impressive wall of text.

So going back to the OP's question here's my interpretation based on the pre-shipping info

BeagleBone Black
Pros:
-More GPIO
-Onboard ADC
-Full Power for USB device
-On-Board boot media
-Power Control Built In
-Network over USB
-Faster processor without over-clocking
-Connections don't exit every side of the board

Cons:
-Lower Resolution HDMI
-Single USB port
-HDMI Only for video
-Smaller User Community
-Complex Standard for add-on boards
-Barrel jack limited to 5.0V is curious to me. I don't have a sigle supply that matches that.

Now, thats of course colored by what I want to use it for but I think that's going to speak to folks like me that want something for physical computing but were not interested in $90.00 to get there. The Raspberry is still a @$#% cool device and will have places where it excels over the others. As a tiny desktop, or media player I think that it is clearly better. Also the BeagleBoard will still have limitations that come with the multi-user, preempting multi-tasking nature of the OS it runs so it's not some massive Arduino as I see people trying to describe it. I see no way to declare that they are not competing products though regardless of the conjecture about why TI made this offering or if it is a loss-leader. They certainly were competing products in my eyes and I'm sure others as well. I have 4 RPi's floating around the house so I have no doubt that I will be continuing to look for ways to use them and develop for them.

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:34 am

Epic post, Jim. The voice of well-thought-out reason as always. Thank you for posting it.
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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:10 am

"Barrel jack limited to 5.0V is curious to me. I don't have a sigle supply that matches that."

I thought it a strange choice, l have one old HP PSU to match that but they are rare :roll: Surely make it 9 or 12v and fit an on board regulator.

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:20 am

recantha2 wrote:Epic post, Jim. The voice of well-thought-out reason as always. Thank you for posting it.
Good post, but I believe the comment about getting the Broadcom chip at cost may not be correct. Not that it's any of our business anyway, but I'm sure I've seen/heard Foundation members state somewhere in the forums that this is not the case. (And there's no reason why it has to be either).
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meltwater
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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:25 am

alexeames wrote:
recantha2 wrote:Epic post, Jim. The voice of well-thought-out reason as always. Thank you for posting it.
Good post, but I believe the comment about getting the Broadcom chip at cost may not be correct. Not that it's any of our business anyway, but I'm sure I've seen/heard Foundation members state somewhere in the forums that this is not the case. (And there's no reason why it has to be either).
My own understanding was that Broadcom allowed them to buy in much smaller volume than they would normally sell at (clearly not an issue now), I doubt it would have been near cost, probably a margin more than the higher volume prices.
The way I've heard the SoC described, it was a pure GPU chip which got a ARM core added to it later in development. The choice I expect came down to price and familiarity, they had a chance to get the chips for suitable price and they happened to know the chip back to front and inside out having worked with it for so long. The familiarity makes the choice much for cost effective as time is expensive (even for volunteering).

BBB Power Supply... The jack does appear to be an odd one, but I guess they are trying to side-step the low current rated PSU issues for USB chargers (is that how they determine the clocking speed), but still cutting costs by skipping the regulator (it was a hard call the RPi also made in the end). Also I wouldn't know what has been used before, I guess look up the older BBs.

Note that the TI Launchpad for $5 worldwide shipped (it was about 2 days to UK from Texas - if I did that shipping would cost me more than that), has been out well before the RPi, so TI were making near-at-cost development kits for a while. It is to get people using their tool-chain, become familiar with their product range and abilities, so TI is the top of the list when it comes to designing real products. It is a little like software, the cost of the item isn't the physical form, but the person-hours put into producing it, so beyond all the logistics of putting it together with everything else, TI will make the main money by selling chips in the 100,000s or millions, rather than a much smaller % of development boards. They can probably see the chips which have development boards end up selling more chips (and perhaps improve the quality of the tool-sets too), so probably treat it as advertising money.

Even ST have been doing it, with the STM-Circle unit a few years ago (another superb development unit). Unfortunately, they have moved up in price and power, rather than down (which I think was the wrong direction).

I still can't make my mind up about getting a BBB, as I always aim not to buy things which I may not use due to time (otherwise I'd have a few warehouses full of "shiny" things and a serious lack of money) - NOTE:I still fail at this. The time it would need to get up and running, I may wait for that killer application or perfect development set-up (where-ever that is). Shall have to see if it can do some cleaver stuff connected as a USB device if possible.

So far, I've been playing around with the RPi since I've had it and there is still a ton of stuff I have planned to try with it. The BBB probably isn't going to make any of those that much easier to do (Android support perhaps an exception IF that is available). I would be interested to hear if anyone has more information about if the BBB could be connected as a USB device, and also how it's GPU compares.

Also, seriously can't quite beat the superb people in the RPi Community. Which is immensely rewarding to be a part of (be it supplying information to or requesting information from).
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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:52 am

I have at least two 5V PSUs that came with barrel plugs (one for a USB hub, and one for an old NetGear wireless AP). However, it would depend on which barrel connector - there are so many different diameters and lengths, and which way round it was connected (although most manufacturers seem to have standardised on +ve inner now).

Not that I'm planning to get a BBB. My Pis do everything I wanted them to do and more, and due to cash restrictions I wouldn't be able to afford one anyway. (Currently saving up to replace the almost illegally worn tyre on my car).

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:52 am

I have three Rpis and have had huge fun over the past year "tinkering" with them and learning (slowly) the
ins and outs of basic Linux.
My order is in for a BBB because I need a board with a bit more grunt for my Ham Radio projects.
In fact, I may have to go gruntier than the BBB but that is to be seen..
The more boards the better IMHO, back in the day, there was little choice and what there was could be
unaffordable.
By far the biggest plus for the Pi is the community. Plenty of willing help and if you come up with a Pi project idea, the chances are, somebody has already done it and is willing to share their experiences.

Since ordering the BBB, I have been "hoovering" up information about the range on the Internet.
Plenty to go at but there is only a fraction out there compared to the Pi knowledge base..
Getting excited about playing with my BBB when it arrives but at the end of the day, they are all just PCBs and components. The "real" value is the availability, quantity and quality of information and knowledge and to that end, the Pi really did "hit the ground running"

Good luck to the Pi, the BBB and any other platforms in the pipeline and a huge thanks to all the good folk who make these available to this retired old duffer who likes playing with tech....

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:06 am

I've pre-ordered one. Wading through the 100+ page manual convinced me. The community is an order of magnitude less than the Pis but its the existing Beagle Board and Beaglebone forum which were much higher priced products. But the last time I looked I was giving out a lot more help than I've asked for on here so I can't see support being a problem. The GPU is irrelevant for what I want to do (no monitor capabilities at all would do), but the beefier CPU will be very handy. It has female headers like the Arduino (chalk and cheese compared to the Pi in most ways unlike the BBB) so its easier and cheaper to knock up home brew addon boards than the Pi. Can't help thinking the fact that it works out of the box with nothing else to buy is a big point in its favour for noobs. Talking noobs through power/SD card/Monitor/IP address problems is what comes up on here a lot of the time, all of which are unknowns because there is no control of what people use with it . The BBB will do stuff just plugged into a PC and you get the lead thrown in. TI pulled a similar stunt in response to the Arduino with the Launchpad, it was sold very cheap, but It didn't get the following the Arduino did, because the IDE was more limited and it wasn't open-source. Its to get developers on board that know how to use TI products, so when they get to specify what goes into their stuff they chose TI chips. Works for me.....
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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:15 am

Just a few points. I'm jetlagged so excuse any typos or bad grammar.

@Cyrano. As others said, we like it polite here, and ACCURATE. Also note I haven't closed this thread...which should go some way to answering some people questions. We have no problem with competiion, or people posting about the competition, but we don't like blatant inaccuracies or blatent advertising. So if someone comes on here bigging up a competitor and slagging the Raspi, then you should expect posts to be removed. That just plain common sense from the Raspi Foundation point of view. After all, charities are still businesses.

The Brcm2835 was indeed developed in the way described above - a preexisting GPU with a grafted on Arm. It's interesting to note though that the memory/bus subsystem connecting the two is really rather good, certainly up there with the best, so it's by no means a bodge it job. It also make money for Brcm- the favours to the Foundation (as a charity) were simply in quantity pricing, NOT selling at cost or similar.
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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:22 am

photomankc wrote: So going back to the OP's question here's my interpretation based on the pre-shipping info
Reasonable summary but a few minor corrections (my edits are in bold)


BeagleBone Black
Pros:
-More GPIO
-Onboard ADC
-Full Power for USB device
-On-Board boot media
-Power Control Built In
-Mini USB device port which can be used for among other things Network over USB, this port may also be able to be used as a second host port but I can't confirm that right now
-Ethernet MAC built into main processor rather than usb based
-Faster processor clock without overclocking
-Newer processor core that is faster per clock in most applications (there are exceptions, basic vfp is apparently slower on the A8 than on the arm11, OTOH the A8 has NEON) and can run common non-device specific hardfloat distributions
-Connections don't exit every side of the board
-LCD expansion option available (the Pi has support for one in theory but no hint of an availability date has been give)
-Barrel jack makes it easier to find higher current power supplies capable of running whatever expansion hardware you build on top of it
-Simple stable physical mounting arrangements both for the beaglebone itself and for expansion boards sitting on top of it.

Cons:
-Lower Resolution HDMI
HDMI is through a micro rather than a standard connector.
-Single USB standard A host port (compared to two on the Pi)
-No composite video
-Smaller User Community
-Complex Standard for add-on boards (though you can mostly ignore it if you want).
-Barrel jack limited to 5.0V is less common than the micro USB the Pi uses and is more vulnerable to accidental damage from someone using the wrong power supply.
-More expensive, how much more depends on how many you are buying and where you live
-Not currently available from stock

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:30 am

photomankc wrote: BeagleBone Black
Cons:
-Lower Resolution HDMI
-HDMI Only for video
are we sure of this though, it seems like a helluva waste of HDMI to only do 1280x1024. some sites say 1080p.

by "hdmi only for video" i assume you mean that's the only video output, and you don't mean it only carries video and not sound, as i doubt that is correct, especially as there is no other sound output.

i've just ordered an arduino mega2560r3 as, like someone else mentioned, after playing with the pi i've now got some use for a more basic low-power device albeit with more gpio's and analogue support. the pi is keeping me lazy and i'm using linux/python to work around circuit issues (like debouncing) instead of forcing me to refresh my c++ knowledge and fix my circuits properly! the cheaper model-a isn't cheaper enough.

i was going to order my third model-b (as my spare "experiments" pi has been relegated to nfsroot raspbmc box now to free up my mac mini) but i'll be ordering a black now instead to experiment with.

competition is good and we can thank the pi for forcing prices down, but i certainly don't see this as a pi-killer, and i may still buy at least one more pi.

as far as barrel plugs go, i'd assume/hope they're 2.1x5mm like the arduino, it would make sense and i've got plenty of 5v 3a ones, which are almost impossible to find with a micro-usb on the end.

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:53 am

sej7278 wrote: are we sure of this though, it seems like a helluva waste of HDMI to only do 1280x1024. some sites say 1080p.
The official system reference manual says that supported resoloutions are "1280x1024 (MAX) 1024x768,1280x720,1440x900".

https://github.com/CircuitCo/BeagleBone ... f?raw=true
by "hdmi only for video" i assume you mean that's the only video output, and you don't mean it only carries video and not sound, as i doubt that is correct, especially as there is no other sound output.
Whichever one he means it seems he is wrong, sound is supported on HDMI according to the system reference manual and there is an LCD interface available on the expansion headers.
its similar to the "does ethernet go via usb or not?" question - some say it does like the pi, some say ethernet is standalone. even the official specs are outdated and vague.
The scematics make it clear that the ethernet on the beaglebone black uses a MAC integrated in the SoC and then an external phy connected by MII. The same was true on the white beaglebone.

I guess people are confusing the beaglebone with the beagleboard XM and pandaboard which do use a USB hub with ethernet chip very similar to the one on the Pi (only difference is they use the model with four USB ports rather than the model with two ports used on the Pi).

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:32 pm

BBB - BeagleBone Black seems like a logical progression from the original BeagleBone with newer cheaper technology.

Seems to me to be good for Hardware related developments with access to all those extra GPIO pins compared to the Pi.

The blurb mentions "Programmable Real-Time Unit Subsystem" Anybody got more details? I tried typing in "real time" as a search in the manual and did not get any hits. Perhaps more details will be released when they provide more information about software

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:43 pm

plugwash wrote:
sej7278 wrote:
by "hdmi only for video" i assume you mean that's the only video output, and you don't mean it only carries video and not sound, as i doubt that is correct, especially as there is no other sound output.
Whichever one he means it seems he is wrong, sound is supported on HDMI according to the system reference manual and there is an LCD interface available on the expansion headers.
I meant that the Pi has component out as well as HDMI and the BBB has only HDMI. Having expansion headers for an external LCD is not the same (in my book) as having an easy component output for any off-the shelf consumer TV monitor.

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:46 pm

plugwash wrote:
photomankc wrote: So going back to the OP's question here's my interpretation based on the pre-shipping info
Reasonable summary but a few minor corrections (my edits are in bold)
I like your edits and additions.

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:20 pm

photomankc wrote:I meant that the Pi has component out as well as HDMI and the BBB has only HDMI. Having expansion headers for an external LCD is not the same (in my book) as having an easy component output for any off-the shelf consumer TV monitor.
Doesn't the Pi have composite? Component uses several wires I thought?
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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:42 pm

alexeames wrote:
photomankc wrote:I meant that the Pi has component out as well as HDMI and the BBB has only HDMI. Having expansion headers for an external LCD is not the same (in my book) as having an easy component output for any off-the shelf consumer TV monitor.
Doesn't the Pi have composite? Component uses several wires I thought?
Correct, my bad. Gotten too used to saying component these days. Composite is correct.

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:04 pm

photomankc wrote:I meant that the Pi has component out as well as HDMI and the BBB has only HDMI. Having expansion headers for an external LCD is not the same (in my book) as having an easy component output for any off-the shelf consumer TV monitor.
We all know you mean "composite" instead of "component", but in the unlikely event a newbie wanders across this, composite is the yellow RCA jack on the Pi, and component is the analog Y Pb Pr or digital Y Cb Cr RGB-derivable set of signals typically passed via green, blue, and red RCA connectors, respectively, on consumer products such as DVD and Blu-ray players as well as HDTVs. HDMI has become nearly ubiquitous for digital video displays now, so component has been disappearing from newer products.
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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:32 pm

plugwash wrote:The official system reference manual says that supported resoloutions are "1280x1024 (MAX) 1024x768,1280x720,1440x900".
yes, apparently not a single beaglebone/board can handle 1080p, as the chips are designed for cars not mobile phones like the pi.

so not a pi-killer for the xbmc nutters, more like a pi+arduino for us experimenters.

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:09 pm

It appears that the BBB is targeted at the hardware tinkerers much more than the Pi is. The Pi is sort of a "jack of all trades" as well as creating the market for very low cost, widely available Single Board Computers (SBCs).

For comparison, the Cubieboard comes with 4GB of NAND flash on board. It also has a feature useful to me that I haven't seen on any of the other boards under discussion: A SATA connector (and a 5v power connector to go with it).

As a note on the power connector issue... The Cubieboard also uses a barrel connector, but in a size I haven't seen anywhere else (4.0mm x 1.7mm). To their credit, the boards ship with a USB-to-barrel power cable. The follow on issue is finding a 5v 2A power supply.

For almost all of my uses, I still favor the Pi. For one specific use, I have Cubieboards on hand.

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:15 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote: For comparison, the Cubieboard comes with 4GB of NAND flash on board. It also has a feature useful to me that I haven't seen on any of the other boards under discussion: A SATA connector (and a 5v power connector to go with it).
What gets me about the cubieboard is that they used 2mm headers. Yes that lets them pack a few more signals into a given space but it also means that tinkerers are basically forced to buy a baseboard that expands it to the normal 0.1 inch (2.54mm) headers

Also when I had a look it seems the EU distributor of the cubieboard charges a LOT more than the headline price.

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:31 pm

If the RPiF keeps on top of new hardware and pays attention to dropping prices on better hardware then I expect to see more and more powerful devices in the coming months. Competition = Better Products

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:09 pm

KeithSloan wrote:The blurb mentions "Programmable Real-Time Unit Subsystem" Anybody got more details? I tried typing in "real time" as a search in the manual and did not get any hits. Perhaps more details will be released when they provide more information about software
IMHO that's one of the BBB things, that make the difference to the RPi. In the future, there might be a realtime kernel for the RPi, but if you need reliable sub-microsecond timing, than this makes a big point.

read on:
https://github.com/beagleboard/am335x_p ... erview.pdf

Summary: 2x 200Mhz ARM cores with some periheral independently running from main core.
Sort of biggy packed ARDUINO - really cool thing. Only the programming is not that easy because you need to write asm code.

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:02 pm

The blurb mentions "Programmable Real-Time Unit Subsystem" Anybody got more details? I tried typing in "real time" as a search in the manual and did not get any hits. Perhaps more details will be released when they provide more information about software
Apparently the BBB has two additional integer processors for real time stuff see http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php ... _Subsystem

There seems to be some speculation about much TI are documenting and supporting these. Plus it appears only support for assembler at least at the moment. So there may still be a case for using a Pi plus an Arduino where one can program in C for the real time stuff. But clearly a Pi + Arduino is going to cost a lot more than a BBB.

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Re: Raspberry Pi vs. Beagle Bone Black

Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:15 pm

meltwater wrote:
alexeames wrote:BBB Power Supply... The jack does appear to be an odd one, but I guess they are trying to side-step the low current rated PSU issues for USB chargers (is that how they determine the clocking speed), but still cutting costs by skipping the regulator (it was a hard call the RPi also made in the end). Also I wouldn't know what has been used before, I guess look up the older BBs.
BeagleBoards and Bones have always provided the 5V barrel jack as a power input option. It is risky, because many of the wall warts you have lying around have unregulated supplies and will happily zap your BB if you plug them in. You need a true 5V supply with 5% or better regulation.

One advantage of barrel plugs is that the supply's cable generally has much larger wires than a micro USB cable, so you don't get much voltage drop across it -- this is still a problem for a number of new RasPi users.

For best results, use a barrel plug that has wiping contacts for the inner conductor. The ones without them only make casual contact and may be intermittent.

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