robleady
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:15 pm

Smartybones said:


You know, I have been hanging around these boards for a few weeks now and I cant help but notice how many questions there are posted in a new thread that have been answered 20 times before and also in the FAQ and wikki... But still they come.


I made a suggestion a few weeks back, that to prevent this, the home page be changed to point straight to the FAQ.  This was dismissed by one of the mods at the time, but I really do think it would have an impact on the number of repeat questions.  One of the main issues I see with the site as it stands, is that people have to search for the information they want rather than be directed straight to it, particularly for new visitors.

A good example is that of the "guerilla marketing" story that was on the home page just before launch day.

http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/699

People were being encouraged to stick up the QR code poster to generate new interest in the project, yet for a couple of days anyone scanning said code would have been taken - not to useful information about what the Raspberry Pi is all about - but a picture of the poster they'd just scanned !!

In my mind, you could potentially go as far as getting rid of the FAQ altogether - just make the Home page contain all the information that people need, and move the current Home page under "News" or similar...

Regards,

Rob

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deepthought
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:16 pm

Personally I think those who patrol forums snapping at people because they're "annoyed" at someone asking a perfectly reasonable question - or for that matter a daft question - should remember that they are going to give the Raspberry Pi and the Foundation a bad name if they're not careful.

Especially once the real market for this device opens up - education - and thousands of youngsters and teachers flood in hoping for a friendly and helpful welcome. Go snapping THEIR heads off and they simply won't come back.

Just because someone thinks they know better than the "noob" is no excuse for bad manners.

As to what is a Raspberry Pi, only time and evolution will reveal its true identity - passing techie fad or saviour of British computing education...

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nick.mccloud
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:20 pm

We are all doing our best to be swans - graceful on the surface but paddling like mad underneath. Just occasionally a swan is going to hiss.

As Grumpy would say, time to man up.

Kernel
Posts: 395
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:53 pm

Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:51 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


I would point out that more than 99% of us here haven't seen a Pi yet.



I have seen many on youtube!

Smartybones said:

one of my favourites was to use this little gem http://bit.ly/sTpGUV just to keep it light hearted.  
Whilst it is a novel idea I hate it when people reply with that site!!

Smartybones
Posts: 176
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:07 pm

robleady said:


People were being encouraged to stick up the QR code poster to generate new interest in the project,


yeah, I have that poster as my facebook profile picture. Its the out of the box thinking that enables a graphic to be placed over the QR code, taking advantage or the error checking built into QR that I believe is what the raspberry is trying to encourage.

robleady said:


In my mind, you could potentially go as far as getting rid of the FAQ altogether - just make the Home page contain all the information that people need, and move the current Home page under "News" or similar...


In time, no doubt it will be, but as pointed our by a few people, the pi at the moment is still really a pre-release version for devs & computer nerds (and I am prod to call myself one !! lol) to play with and get some really interesting stuff out there as well as producing the documentation to go with it,  for its more general consumer (in a box) release in Q3.

I wonder if when the boxed version is released, will a unboxed version still be available as for most of my projects I have in mind the box will not be needed as its going to be fitted into a custom case.

Smartybones
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:15 pm

Kernel said:


Smartybones said:


one of my favourites was to use this little gem http://bit.ly/sTpGUV just to keep it light hearted.


Whilst it is a novel idea I hate it when people reply with that site!!


it can be over used, but when its clear that someone has not even done the most basic search, it just conveys the right level of sarcasm and is still a helpful pointer in the right direction.

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TheTap
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:17 pm

Kernel said:

That is because it is so important: https://xkcd.com/386/

10 https://xkcd.com/386/

20 LOL

30 Click Next

40 goto 20

Smartybones
Posts: 176
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:52 pm

TheTap said:


10 https://xkcd.com/386/

20 LOL

30 Click Next

40 goto 20


whats with the goto? your not allowed to use them…so i am told anyway….

there should be a whole proc in their to add  post a page you find particularly funny in a forum/blog/facebook/twitter.

http://xkcd.com/217/

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nick.mccloud
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:52 am

Smartybones said:


Kernel said:


Smartybones said:


one of my favourites was to use this little gem http://bit.ly/sTpGUV just to keep it light hearted.


Whilst it is a novel idea I hate it when people reply with that site!!


it can be over used, but when its clear that someone has not even done the most basic search, it just conveys the right level of sarcasm and is still a helpful pointer in the right direction.


It's my weapon of last resort but it is indeed a good way of pointing out to a persistent non-searcher that there are ways to help themselves.

pandapi
Posts: 120
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:00 pm

nmcc said:


We are all doing our best to be swans - graceful on the surface but paddling like mad underneath. Just occasionally a swan is going to hiss.

As Grumpy would say, time to man up.


What a lovely philosophy.

I feel sorry for any kids (they might not post their ages so you wouldn't know) that post on here and get "hissed" at.

Not everyone is a forumite and massive internet user like you. They might not know about FAQ/wikis/pinned threads that should be read first. Lets hiss at them for it!

Like i said, nothing wrong with pointing them at the FAQ/wiki/etc but manners cost nothing

josh89
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:10 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


If people are going to use forums they do need to wise up and use the resources that are available. Forum members are more than happy to help but if people come on board who have not made any effort at all they will be direct to the faq and the wiki.

This forum is not any different from any other I have been on; if anything, it is more polite.

This forum is also more forgiving than many; often jerks and trolls will just get closed down or banned.


often people may have made the effort but not have specifically stated that they have checked out the FAQ / Wiki

In saying that the search feature on this forum is somewhat limited and hard to find a lot of topics.

On the whole though i do agree that this forum is more forgiving and a welcoming place at that.

Hopefully the new site will be user friendly and mitigate duplicate posts as much as possible

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nick.mccloud
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:12 pm

pandapi said:


What a lovely philosophy.

I feel sorry for any kids (they might not post their ages so you wouldn't know) that post on here and get "hissed" at.

Not everyone is a forumite and massive internet user like you. They might not know about FAQ/wikis/pinned threads that should be read first. Lets hiss at them for it!


I never said it should be the default response. What I'm trying to convey is that people are people and sometimes they are human. However if you can maintain a saintly attitude 24/7 then we'll leave you to it

Alchemy
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:43 pm

The Raspberry Pi is for learning.

All us experienced programmers are essentially hanging out at kindergarten to look smart. We don't have to be here the newbies do. So like it or not this is the newbies forum even on post 1. And whatever the response to a question it should result in educating or encouraging them. Or were just creepy old men(or creepy old women) who don't need to be here.

Kernel
Posts: 395
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:56 pm

pandapi said:

Not everyone is a forumite and massive internet user like you. They might not know about FAQ/wikis/pinned threads that should be read first. Lets hiss at them for it!


This is indeed very true

josh89 said:

often people may have made the effort but not have specifically stated that they have checked out the FAQ / Wiki
In saying that the search feature on this forum is somewhat limited and hard to find a lot of topics.

On the whole though i do agree that this forum is more forgiving and a welcoming place at that.

Hopefully the new site will be user friendly and mitigate duplicate posts as much as possible


Indeed often when I ask a question I have looked but I don't think I need to list every single thing I have done and what happened

Yes the forum search isn't great but the google custom search on the main site works a lot better

nmcc said:

people and sometimes they are human. 
and this is even truer!

Alchemy said:


All us experienced programmers are essentially hanging out at kindergarten to look smart.


heh that made me chuckle

Joe Schmoe
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:15 pm

(Again, being a bit contrarian)

I have several different opinions on this - which are not all consistent with each other.  I agree that it is annoying when people ask the same questions over and over (the 180th rendition of "Will it run Windows?" or "Does it work with a VGA monitor?" is  definitely a source of mirth) - but, OTOH, I don't really think of it as a bad thing, more as a funny thing.  So, if I put in a sarcastic response, it's not really that I think the poster was a bad person or even a stupid person, just an amusing person.

Second, it is true that even though the info is there (on this board), it isn't easy to get to.   Now, for what it is worth, when I first came on this board, I read that the RPi had RCA and HDMI video outputs, and my first reaction was "Cool, HDMI!" and my second was "And, nice that if you don't have HDMI on your TV, you can use the RCA outputs.  Nice".  And then sometime after that, I figured "Hmmm.  So, it won't work with VGA.", but this didn't seem that big of a deal, since it seemed clear to me that this was a device built to work with a TV, not with an old-fashioned computer monitor.  It didn't seem like that big of a deal.  But it seemed obvious to me that if it said it did HDMI and RCA, then it probably did that and nothing else.

Yet, for all that, what wasn't clear to me was the schedule - the all important questions: When can I get one and what will it cost?  So, I did some FAQ reading (back in January) and the results were inconclusive, so I posted a thread asking the questions.  The responses were courteous, so there was no problem, but it has occurred to me since then that someone might have sarcastically posted that all the information is here in the forum and if I'd read every single forum post from beginning to end, I'd have gotten my answer without bothering people with yet another post (on this, in some people's eyes, "contentious" issue).

Another one, consider all the forum threads about QEMU and emulation.  At this point, there are about 6 long threads on the subject, and I think it has been talked to death - all the info one could need is there, somewhere, among the threads.  But you know perfectly well that the next person who comes along is going to start a new thread rather than read all 6 of those from beginning to end.  In fact I know pretty much what all is there, and do occasionally have to search it (to get the syntax, e.g., for the various QEMU network-related command line options), but the search is difficult and obtuse and time-consuming.  The person who doesn't know what is there is not going to bother.

So, what does it all mean?  It means that forum software is not an ideal medium for storing this kind of information.  Wiki is better, though not perfect.  I have to admit that I've never accessed the Wiki here (I've heard that it exists, but that's about it).  Now, you can say that this is a failing on my part (What???  You haven't read it [the wiki] from beginning to end???  Who do you think you are?), but the fact is that if I haven't read it, nor will most people who've found their way here.

I just don't think it is reasonable to expect people to have read everything, but that doesn't mean we should stop ribbing them into doing so.  And, I don't have a problem with being a little sarcastic about it - it makes things more fun and interesting.

Finally, a quote.  Someone posted the old chestnut that "My grandmother always said that if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all." to which my response is that Dorothy Parker (love her!) said "If you  don't have anything nice to say, come over and sit with me." (I think that's the quote, corrections welcomed!)
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

steviewevie
Posts: 104
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:42 pm

Hopefully the upcoming new forums will be a lot better in terms of layout (e.g. a lot more sub-forums), making things a bit easier to navigate. e.g. right now where do you post a technical question on Fedora, in the Distros forum thread, or in the "General Discussion" forum ? (rhetorical question)

However, anyone who's been on Internet forums for any length of time will know that it doesn't matter how much you shove the FAQ in people's faces, there will be a lot of the same questions being asked over and over. It doesn't matter how good the FAQ and/or Wiki is, it will still keep happening.

The new forums can't come soon enough !

lewmur
Posts: 386
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:40 pm

pandapi said:


nmcc said:


We are all doing our best to be swans – graceful on the surface but paddling like mad underneath. Just occasionally a swan is going to hiss.

As Grumpy would say, time to man up.


What a lovely philosophy.

I feel sorry for any kids (they might not post their ages so you wouldn't know) that post on here and get "hissed" at.

Not everyone is a forumite and massive internet user like you. They might not know about FAQ/wikis/pinned threads that should be read first. Lets hiss at them for it!

Like i said, nothing wrong with pointing them at the FAQ/wiki/etc but manners cost nothing


If they are going to sit down to dine at the table with the grownups, then they need to learn not to chew with their mouths open.  Otherwise they are likely to get hissed at.  To chastise us elderly folk for being rude to youngsters. who have no manners at all, is getting things backwards.

The rules for polite use of the forums are there for all to read.  If certain people choose to ignore those rules and then get "hissed at", it's their own damned fault.  To claim that, in the name of good manners, one should tolerate bad manners, is, IMHO, foolish.

XAPBob
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:46 pm

One thing I always find a pain with forums is that "interesting" threads tend to cover multiple pages.

A useful feature would be a "whole thread on one page please" button.

This would drop the whole thread into a page that can then be accessed easily and read continuously, not having to keep load the next 10 replies.

I know it is not a good default (in terms of dB access or bandwidth) but I think it's a major failing of many boards...

poing
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:57 pm

@Joe Schmoe: I think the forum/wiki needs a lot of very clear step by step explanations aimed at children/newbies where people can be directed to. Once they've been through one such a tutorial they see the other tutorials and can help themselves a great deal.

Smartybones
Posts: 176
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:51 pm

Wow, when I first started this thread I never imagined it would provoke so many replies and thoughts.

there has been a lot of talk about the new forums software on its way, and I for one cant wait for its arrival. I have never been a fan of wordpress, it has far too many limitations to support a product like the pi. That said, I dont think the TRF realised how big the pi was going to be so soon, if they had, They would probably have had vbuletin or phpbb from the start. its going to open a whole can of worms getting a successful migration keeping all the threads and users intact.

One thing I will point out is that myself, I have never really looked at the FAQ or the wikki. What I have learned about the RPi is from press releases, the main website announcements and by reading threads on the forums. That said, my own issues with OCD, the RPi has become my own "One Ring". I feel I know a great deal about the technical issues with pi, and all of that knowledge is there to be found in black and white and with some reasonable use of logic.

regarding people not reading a thread that may very well contain the answer they need, sometimes when a thread has gone across multiple pages, it becomes "too much effort" to read it all, cover to cover for some people. Another forum I spend time on is the XDA developers forum and some of those threads go into the hundreds of pages and although it can be a pain to read through it all, you can usually find what your looking for. You would get through it a lot quicker if you didn't have to scan passed the same questions over and over because people are to lazy to read. usually they are the ones wanting to know how to root their phone so they can install apps they have downloaded form TPB.

as for the kids having to learn the table manners if they are going to sit at the adults table, I was instructed on the right table manners in the first place before I sat at the big table.

...and in addition....
sometimes, its plainly obvious someone has not done even a tiny bit of their own research even if they quote, "I have read the stickies , FAQ & the wikki but I cant find the answer to where bears actually do defecate..."

Kernel
Posts: 395
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:35 pm

Smartybones said:

They would probably have had vbuletin or phpbb from the start.
Not VBulletin - Liz doesn't like it!

Smartybones
Posts: 176
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:03 pm

Kernel said:

Not VBulletin - Liz doesn't like it!

it wouldn't be my first choice, but depending what you want and with all plugins available it can be moulded into almost a perfect shape for any purpose.

phpbb is good, its very flexible and is probably the only other forum software that can give vbuletin a run for its money.

ultimately, I think the choice is going to go down to whichever has the best migration path from wordpress. the amount of bitching about a borked RJ45 socket will have nothing on the bitching in everyone has to re-register !

Kernel
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:07 pm

Smartybones said:


Kernel said:


Not VBulletin - Liz doesn't like it!


it wouldn't be my first choice, but depending what you want and with all plugins available it can be moulded into almost a perfect shape for any purpose.

phpbb is good, its very flexible and is probably the only other forum software that can give vbuletin a run for its money.

ultimately, I think the choice is going to go down to whichever has the best migration path from wordpress. the amount of bitching about a borked RJ45 socket will have nothing on the bitching in everyone has to re-register !



I think they have already decided on phpBB - not sure what the migration process is - I just hope the forum links that are posted in topics keep working - I havent used phpBB in a long time but back then it wasn't very nice but I hear it has improved a lot.

as for the only other software to rival vbulletin - what about IPB? https://www.invisionpower.com/

I have also been liking this open source software lately: http://vanillaforums.org/ but it is better for short topics - it isn't the best experience with very long topics

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Morgaine
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:20 pm

The Rpi isn't just one thing.  It's whatever you choose to make of it.

* Some will use it as a Linux desktop, saving greatly on power consumption.

* Some will use it as a media center running XBMC or OpenELEC.

* Some will use it as a network appliance for a small website or email.

* Some will add a USB NIC and use it as a Linux firewall router.

* Some will use its GPIOs and employ it to control external hardware.

* Some will use it for multiple thin clients giving access to their LAN PCs.

* And hopefully schoolchildren worldwide will use it as a tool for IT learning.

* Plus a million other things.

Seriously, don't try to pigeon hole this lovely device.  The possibilities created by its very low price bracket have no limit.

Morgaine.
Intolerance is a failure of education. Education is predicated on tolerance of the uneducated.

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danielverza
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Re: Exactly what is a Pi?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:39 pm

I'm pretty sure at this point they already chose which one will be used, and it will probably be a good choice.

But since you guys are discussing forum infrastructure alternatives, you might want to take a look at fluxbb for any future endeavours.

It's very fast and secure, (and actively developed, so bugs are fixed fast when found) and the maintainers are open to help with migration if necessary.

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