shirro
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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:25 am

gritz said:


Yeah, I think this is one area where Linux betrays it's origins.


My phone, my television, wireless routers, ADSL modem all run on a Linux kernel. None of them expire passwords or set minimum password limits. This has got nothing to do with Linux. These policies are set in user space by the distribution and can be disabled or a more appropriate distribution can be selected and there are several choices already.

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:51 am


gritz said:


Yeah, I think this is one area where Linux betrays it"s origins.


shirro said:

… or a more appropriate distribution can be selected and there are several choices already.


Bingo! I maintain that too much choice is not necessarily a good thing as it encourages niches and duplication of effort. A focussed set of tools, if you will. Evolution, even.

Edit: It's almost as dogmatic as having to mess around with tags just to get a post to display in some sort of order. It is the 21st century, after all.

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:18 am

Grumpyoldgit said:


And Multiplan!


On a TI 99/4a ? Wasn't that a Micro$oft product???

( I'm really NOT old enough to have used it... Am I?? )

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:52 am

SN said:


Well the Fedora Remix build on qemu isn't the speediest beast either but it does keep up the keyboard OK - and this is emulated so I don't expect the results reported to be a problem on the real thing

HOWEVER... I do note the password issue he had on that article - I've seen similar and indeed completely rebuilt my qemu boot image because of it and I notice a few things in relation to it:

1. No matter how hard you try you can not log in on the GUI as root

2. No matter how hard you try you can not su from your dedicated new user to root - this makes it hard to do a controlled shutdown

3. If you let the screen saver kick in, it will refuse all attempts to take your new user password to get you out of it - aka you need to kill it and reboot - so my first warning to anyone using the Fedora Remix is disable the screensaver

4. You CAN get a terminal login as root on the console by logging in first as your new user and then by ssh'ing to root@localhost (and from there you can do a controlled shutdown)


Some of the issues are related to the method I used to expand the fedora rootfs image for qemu. Jojopi has a better method (Post 22): http://www.raspberrypi.org/for.....ons/page-2

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:42 am

hstubbs3 said:


Grumpyoldgit said:


And Multiplan!


On a TI 99/4a ? Wasn't that a Micro$oft product???

( I'm really NOT old enough to have used it... Am I?? )


It was on a Wang. I seem to recall that the Wang computers we had were not IBM compatible, although I think the OS was Microsoft; probably DOS 3.1 as that is the first version I recall using. Initially there was just one 5 1/4" floppy drive which needed to contain the OS and the spreadsheets. No hard drives at that time! Spreadsheets were limited to 256 rows which was a problem for us as we dealt with about 300 sites. The solution was that every database came on three spreadsheets; A-L; M-Z and totals. It was heady stuff as you had to be able to link all these sheets together and know when to insert and remove individual floppies. Adding a second floppy drive was a big improvement. I would add that I knew much more about spreadsheets then than I do now.

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:21 am

rmm200 said:


Let me post as a modified password hater.  On this device I hate being required to change password on first login, after I have gone to the trouble of defining it as I want. I hate requiring at least one digit, upper class letter, and special character - and at least 8 characters long. I hate being forced to change passwords on a regular basis.

It is simply not appropriate for this device.

Running users at a reduced privilege level is great, but they should be able to run as user bobby, pw bobby if they want. I certainly run my linux systems that way.

The entire class should know how to use sudo, and have a root password like "root" so they can find it.



Couldn't agree more. Its just idiotic to require those kind of complicated passwords in an educational environment. I'm a network manager in a school and reset passwords everyday for kids. Our 6 letter requirement is hard enough for them, let alone using special characters. Sometimes I think the people who make these design decisions live on another planet.

To make Fedora the default install seems like a bad decision if it does have that kind of over the top security.
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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:46 am

There isn't any requirement to use complicated passwords in place in the Fedora Remix.

I just tried the password "a" and it works. You just have to ignore the warning that it is a bad password. And to be fair "a" is a really bad password

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:52 am

One of the obligatory courses I did at Delft University was 'computer security'. The first things you learn is that the user are the weakest link in your system always. So the more user-unfriendly you make your system, to less secure it will become'.

http://ars.userfriendly.org/ca.....d=20071002

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:21 am

I have a sticky note on the monitor here. It has the high-strength password for the firewall on it. If someone reads it, the firewall is the last thing I am worried about. On the other hand it has to be highly secure from an on-line cracking attempt.

Similarly I have all my passwords written down at home. They are physically protected by virtue of being in my house. That is far safer than choosing passwords I can remember.

How to choose passwords: http://xkcd.com/936/

How not to choose passwords:http://www.whatsmypass.com/the.....f-all-time

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:24 am

I use keepass to generate and store passwords: http://keepass.info/

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:34 am

I have replied to this post a few times and rhen watched the topic run all over the shop. I think the answer is to think why its "supposedly" slow.
Optimise the damn thing then, learn about the hardware and the OS etc and help everyone to make it better, hence then community.
Seems to me what is going on here yet again is there are tons of people out there making things better and wanting to learn, then there are others who just moan because it does not fit a requirement or assumed use or cant run windows etc.
Its an extreamly cheap piece of hardware . What do you want ? An icore performance pc. Shop elsewhere.
Sorry but sometimes i get miffed. I wish when i was young that i had a cheap piece of hardware that runs a gui OS in less than 256 mb ram for under 30 quid.

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:46 am

Cylon said:


I have replied to this post a few times and rhen watched the topic run all over the shop. I think the answer is to think why its "supposedly" slow.
Optimise the damn thing then, learn about the hardware and the OS etc and help everyone to make it better, hence then community.
Seems to me what is going on here yet again is there are tons of people out there making things better and wanting to learn, then there are others who just moan because it does not fit a requirement or assumed use or cant run windows etc.
Its an extreamly cheap piece of hardware . What do you want ? An icore performance pc. Shop elsewhere.
Sorry but sometimes i get miffed. I wish when i was young that i had a cheap piece of hardware that runs a gui OS in less than 256 mb ram for under 30 quid.


Wow someone hasn't had his medicine. Aside from the fact this post has indeed meandered off into  password nazi realms. Lets get back to the topic at hand.

The guy from RS posted it on their blog, I repeated it here as it seemed very slow, I then updated with the 'why'. (the GUI part isn't accelerated)

The question is, is this being worked on by someone or not?

AND no, It's not that simple as just getting off your ass and doing it - any performance GUI stuff needed would be handled by the one closed-source part of the RPi - the binary blob. So that means that broadcomm/the foundation have to provide a driver, and this can't be done by "the community" due to its closed source nature.

If you're going to rant about "DIY" at least know that its POSSIBLE before hand.
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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:47 am

@Cylon,

When you put it like that, it highlights that fact that this computer and my first computer were very similar…

The RaspPi is only a third of the price and has exactly a million times more memory.

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:26 am

ArborealSeer said:





The guy from RS posted it on their blog, I repeated it here as it seemed very slow, I then updated with the 'why'. (the GUI part isn't accelerated)

The question is, is this being worked on by someone or not?

AND no, It's not that simple as just getting off your ass and doing it - any performance GUI stuff needed would be handled by the one closed-source part of the RPi - the binary blob. So that means that broadcomm/the foundation have to provide a driver, and this can't be done by "the community" due to its closed source nature.

If you're going to rant about "DIY" at least know that its POSSIBLE before hand.


Actually, it IS as simple as getting off your arse and doing it (although it's not actually simple). Acceleration via OpenGLES or OpenVG doesn't require access to the binary blob. It just requires someone who knows about X video drivers, and OpenGLSES/VG.

There is very little extra that could be done to accelerate X by using the blob over  OpenGLES - after all it's optimised to run OpenGLES fast, so the best is to use those libraries.
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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:34 am

Holy off-topicness Batman !

Anyway, on the "how slow is it ?" question, that's referring to the GUI (X11) performance, right ? Which isn't GPU-accelerated.

I presume the non-GUI command line is "instant" ?

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:42 am

Instant (ish). There does appears to be a unexplained pause every now and again, but this is why this release isn't for education yet - we are expecting glitches like that to be sorted out by the community, once they get their sweaty paws on the device! Lots of eager developers tweaking the distro's is our goal here. There are a lot of clever people out there, many more than the Foundation can put on the project!
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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:48 am

JamesH said:


Instant (ish). There does appears to be a unexplained pause every now and again, but this is why this release isn't for education yet - we are expecting glitches like that to be sorted out by the community, once they get their sweaty paws on the device! Lots of eager developers tweaking the distro's is our goal here. There are a lot of clever people out there, many more than the Foundation can put on the project!


Thanks James.

Indeed, the lack of GPU acceleration will get solved in this way before too long, I'm sure. I can see an initial dip in enthusiasm on behalf of some people who just want to "use" their Raspi when they find the GUI is slow (already pointed out well in advance by Chris Tyler). But I'm also sure that this will get sorted soon, as more people get involved with developing, and that overall enthusiasm will go back up before long. Let's get that educational release running as good as we can !

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:50 am

For those interested, there might be a prize (not sure what) for the first person/group to come up with an OpenGLES driver for X.

TBH, I'm pretty amazed no-one has done one yet (not just Raspi, but anyone). There have been a  couple of projects, but they seem to have stalled. Hopefully the Raspi will force progress!
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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:58 am

steviewevie said:


Holy off-topicness Batman !


I think the speed question was answered. I had the same question and searching around benchmarks got me the figures I needed. It does compare to the 300Mhz PII as people said. I dug up classsic performance data and the RasPi wiki performance data is near enough. From there you can just benchmark your own machine and compare to make plans.

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:22 pm

Alchemy said:


I think the speed question was answered. I had the same question and searching around benchmarks got me the figures I needed. It does compare to the 300Mhz PII as people said. I dug up classsic performance data and the RasPi wiki performance data is near enough.


Care to share ? Might be useful for future reference, for when this question comes up again.

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:30 pm

JamesH said:


ArborealSeer said:





The guy from RS posted it on their blog, I repeated it here as it seemed very slow, I then updated with the 'why'. (the GUI part isn't accelerated)

The question is, is this being worked on by someone or not?

AND no, It's not that simple as just getting off your ass and doing it - any performance GUI stuff needed would be handled by the one closed-source part of the RPi - the binary blob. So that means that broadcomm/the foundation have to provide a driver, and this can't be done by "the community" due to its closed source nature.

If you're going to rant about "DIY" at least know that its POSSIBLE before hand.


Actually, it IS as simple as getting off your arse and doing it (although it's not actually simple). Acceleration via OpenGLES or OpenVG doesn't require access to the binary blob. It just requires someone who knows about X video drivers, and OpenGLSES/VG.

There is very little extra that could be done to accelerate X by using the blob over  OpenGLES - after all it's optimised to run OpenGLES fast, so the best is to use those libraries.


furry nuff.. i knew it wasn't trivial..

so really.. no one is currently looking at it, and its expected/assumed that someone skilled enough, will do it off their own back gratis?

i found this which i believe explains it a bit, but the keywords involved result in a lot of unrelated hits so its hard to find much more

http://www.linuxquestions.org/.....11-876634/
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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:32 pm

steviewevie said:


Care to share ? Might be useful for future reference, for when this question comes up again.


Integer interests me the Wiki gives it as "Dhrystones per Second: 809061.5" but the comparison data I found was in MIPS. To get those I found out you divide by 1757. So its 460 Dhrystone MIPS. And 300 PII is 544-477 MIPS on data I've seen.

I also calculated Super Pi32M should be around 25000s on RasPi boards. Based on comparison to Atoms imagining they ran at 300Mhz.

So at best a RasPi performs 20 times slower than an i7 Core. But cost 20 times less so its sweet. But in many circumstances it would be 30-40 times slower if the data was cache-able. To me silence is golden - so its not purely bangs for bucks. Raspberry clusters do have applications where silence is needed.

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:36 pm

ArborealSeer said:





so really.. no one is currently looking at it, and its expected/assumed that someone skilled enough, will do it off their own back gratis?


Yup. That's how a lot of OSS works. Although like I said, there may be a prize.
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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:42 pm

It will be interesting to do a few comparisons once we have some Pi in our hot sweaty palms. The slowest PC I have up and running is a Dell Optiplex GX110 with 512MB RAM. It is a PIII running at 700MHz. It absolutely zips along with Puppy but is very sluggish with Ubuntu 11.10 with that ghastly Unity front end.

All the distros are a little different; some fatter than others. At the moment there does seem to be a bit of an issue with Fedora Remix 14 but I am sure I saw something about a version 17 Remix being planned.

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Re: How slow is it?

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:58 pm

JamesH said:


For those interested, there might be a prize (not sure what) for the first person/group to come up with an OpenGLES driver for X.

TBH, I'm pretty amazed no-one has done one yet (not just Raspi, but anyone). There have been a  couple of projects, but they seem to have stalled. Hopefully the Raspi will force progress!


I'm just as surprised, as such a thing could change modern day computing just like the Pi itself. No longer would we need both a powerful CPU and GPU; if we can run things off the GPU, hello fast, low power linux computing.

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