CaesarRoyale
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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:29 am

Using an emulator like DOSBox, you can play many DOS games that have gone out of date all over again!

But I'm wondering, can most DOS games from 1994 to.... 98 even, run on this device? For example, Daggerfall? I really love this game and would love to be able to play it on a plane or something with just this, a small Bluetooth keyboard and a portable TV!

I check'd the specs, and it all seems to be in order... but can it run on this, just to be sure?

There are many notable DOS games I would love to play on this... DOOM II, Civ, and Monkey Island, and Quake to name a few!

For the raspberry pi makers; you can download Daggerfall for free from the Elder Scrolls website, complete with DOSBox instuctions, in case you didn't know ;)

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:47 am

Well, you'll want to use ScummVM for Monkey Island and other scumm-based games (full throttle, day of the tentacle, etc). Those games will run just fine through scummvm, and look much better.

I think there are linux versions of Doom II and Quake available.

I'd expect dosbox to work well enough for most games, but I am not too sure about Daggerfall.

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:46 am

Ultimately, there's just some things we're going to have to wait to find out from user submitted findings. But we do know that Quake 3 with all the Bells and Whistles runs just fine on the R-pi, so Daggerfall should work just fine too.

Also the CPU clock speeds didn't hit 700 MHz (I believe) until mid to late 99 (later for AMD). As a result, I would imagine that game developers would not have designed their system requirements to require MORE than this speed for quite a while. I would hazard a guess that the R-pi will easily run most dos games through the turn of the century right up to the time XP stated gaining speed... but that's just my guess.
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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:38 am

Ah, thanks for the replies guys! I haven't thought about using the actual OS, d'oh!

Hmm... if Quake 3 runs fine, and QuakeLive is pretty much Q3 (don't tell anybody!) I could be able to play QL on my 50" plasma i blew all my money on with a computer that cost me $20, for example!

Once Minecraft makes the transition over to C++, hopefully it'll tax lower-end machines MUCH less.

What I ultimately plan to do with one of them (I plan on getting multiple) is putting it in a DS housing, along with some batteries and a 4.3 inch screen, maybe that small bluetooth keyboard, and hack together a portable computer, the size of a phone and with Linux!

Hmm... most games aren't available for Linux or Ubuntu, So i might have to get a copy of Windows 7. I'll use it for other things, aswell, like maybe upgrading my laptop or my computer I'm gonna build in February (Gonna have more than 700 MHz....)

EDIT: What if I change this topic name to: "What good/well known games can it run?"

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:25 am

Just a word of warning, Windows 7 is not compatible with the R-pi! One of the caveats of the way the r-pi has been designed is that they are using an ARM11 processor and not a traditional x86 or x64 based processor.

More than that they have had to design some custom drivers for the chip as well, drivers which I believe, at this point in time, are closed source. This means that the r-pi will work with several flavors of Linux (provided that the specific Linux distro has an ARM package), as well as Android I believe, but additional OSes... we'll have to wait and see about that!
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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:44 am

Quote from CaesarRoyale on August 9, 2011, 03:29
Using an emulator like DOSBox, you can play many DOS games that have gone out of date all over again!

But I'm wondering, can most DOS games from 1994 to.... 98 even, run on this device? For example, Daggerfall? I really love this game and would love to be able to play it on a plane or something with just this, a small Bluetooth keyboard and a portable TV!

I check'd the specs, and it all seems to be in order... but can it run on this, just to be sure?

There are many notable DOS games I would love to play on this... DOOM II, Civ, and Monkey Island, and Quake to name a few!

For the raspberry pi makers; you can download Daggerfall for free from the Elder Scrolls website, complete with DOSBox instuctions, in case you didn't know ;)

It would be necessary to have an Arm port of DOSBox to do this - there are some available, but not sure they would work on the Raspi. However, it sounds like an interesting project, so might try and compile it once the HW arrives.
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CaesarRoyale
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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:09 pm

Hmm... okay. ANY windows that has support for an Arm?

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:35 pm

That is... a complicated question. Technically speaking, windows CE runs on ARM and Windows 8 will run on ARM. However, as I mentioned above, it's been told that there are some special drivers that let the r-pi work. At this point in time, it is uncertain whether those drivers will be released (open source) for us to see and apply to other OSes (like windows).

So, to directly answer your question, yes there are versions of windows that can run on ARM, but they won't be compatible with the r-pi specifically at this time (or so is my understanding)
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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:58 pm

Quote from abishur on August 9, 2011, 04:46
Ultimately, there's just some things we're going to have to wait to find out from user submitted findings. But we do know that Quake 3 with all the Bells and Whistles runs just fine on the R-pi, so Daggerfall should work just fine too.

Also the CPU clock speeds didn't hit 700 MHz (I believe) until mid to late 99 (later for AMD). As a result, I would imagine that game developers would not have designed their system requirements to require MORE than this speed for quite a while. I would hazard a guess that the R-pi will easily run most dos games through the turn of the century right up to the time XP stated gaining speed... but that's just my guess.

It doesn't translate that way though. It doesn't matter than the games could run on 700MHz, because DOS is actually being emulated... which is hell of a lot slower. And from what I remember Daggerfall was a fairly demanding game. 'course it might work, but the 700MHz doesn't mean anything when the system is emulated.

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:06 pm

Quote from CaesarRoyale on August 9, 2011, 05:38
Ah, thanks for the replies guys! I haven't thought about using the actual OS, d'oh!

Hmm... if Quake 3 runs fine, and QuakeLive is pretty much Q3 (don't tell anybody!) I could be able to play QL on my 50" plasma i blew all my money on with a computer that cost me $20, for example!

Once Minecraft makes the transition over to C++, hopefully it'll tax lower-end machines MUCH less.

What I ultimately plan to do with one of them (I plan on getting multiple) is putting it in a DS housing, along with some batteries and a 4.3 inch screen, maybe that small bluetooth keyboard, and hack together a portable computer, the size of a phone and with Linux!

Hmm... most games aren't available for Linux or Ubuntu, So i might have to get a copy of Windows 7. I'll use it for other things, aswell, like maybe upgrading my laptop or my computer I'm gonna build in February (Gonna have more than 700 MHz....)

EDIT: What if I change this topic name to: "What good/well known games can it run?"

Minecraft is going to transition to C++? Haven't heard of such madness.

I think the problem with minecraft isn't so much that it's written in Java, but the way it's written. Notch is unable to fix bugs without creating new ones... imagine what would happen if he tried to port it to C++. He'd need to hire professional developers to port it over for him, and I don't think that will happen.

And yeah you can't use the original OS for DOS and Windows games on r-pi. Microsoft seems to be trying to get into the ARM market, but they're not quite there yet (aside from Windows CE).

Even if you do get Windows and we get the drivers for it, the games are written for the Intel processor instruction set, so they just will not run on r-pi without an emulator.

Basically any game that is open source (like doom and quake), can be ported over to run on r-pi, but all the closed source windows games will need DOSBox.

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:26 pm

Quote from ShiftPlusOne on August 9, 2011, 18:58

It doesn't translate that way though. It doesn't matter than the games could run on 700MHz, because DOS is actually being emulated... which is hell of a lot slower. And from what I remember Daggerfall was a fairly demanding game. 'course it might work, but the 700MHz doesn't mean anything when the system is emulated.

That is absolutely correct. My point was more along the lines that games don't require greater processing power than presently exists, and, more importantly, developers used to spend years designing a game, meaning that it wouldn't have been designed to top processor requirements at least a year prior to the release date. Yes it's not a 1:1 direct reference source since it will be running on a emulator, but it makes for a decent, albeit rough, baseline for comparison.

I guess my overall point is considering the fact that Quake 3, a game which was released in 1999, requires a 233 MHz CPU with 64 MB of RAM, runs flawlessly with all settings maxed out then I think that Daggerfall, a game which was released in 1996, requires a 90 MHz CPU and 32 MB of RAM, should work out just fine :P :)
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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:30 pm

Windows games can run under wine. Which is experimental and slightly CPU demanding.

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:35 pm

Now, if someone fancies doing a port of the Baldur's Gate series, I'll be all over it.
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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:46 pm

Quote from MaK11-12 on August 9, 2011, 20:30
Windows games can run under wine. Which is experimental and slightly CPU demanding.

Wine means "wine is not an emulator". You can't take intel instructions and run them straight on an ARM processor.

http://wiki.winehq.org/ARM

Edit: made a mistake calling cpu instructions 'bytecode'

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:48 pm

Quote from abishur on August 9, 2011, 20:26
I guess my overall point is considering the fact that Quake 3, a game which was released in 1999, requires a 233 MHz CPU with 64 MB of RAM, runs flawlessly with all settings maxed out then I think that Daggerfall, a game which was released in 1996, requires a 90 MHz CPU and 32 MB of RAM, should work out just fine :P :)

Ah, got it. My opinion is a bit biased since I remember I had trouble with Daggerfall, but honestly I don't remember whether I was using dosbox or running it straight. Might have been some other problem, not the requirements themselves.

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:33 pm

@ShiftPlusOne
I was thinking of using the Android version when that came out, a different team is converting it over to C++ for Android and Xbox 360.

Also, for emulation, maybe I could find a copy of Windows 98 on eBay and be able to use actual DOS. XD

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:45 pm

just go and get the real dos 6.22 ^^
but i wonder how you would get the floppy disk into the pi XD

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:49 pm

I have an 8meg thumb drive that has 6.22 on it that i use quite often. comes in handy quite often. perhaps you could use a usb floppy drive with the R-Pi

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:15 am

Quote from AmyS3 on August 10, 2011, 00:45
just go and get the real dos 6.22 ^^
but i wonder how you would get the floppy disk into the pi XD

There's an ARM-compatible DOS build (other than maybe some port of freedos)?
Other than that, I use a USB floppy drive and also floppy .img files to work with floppies on an old laptop I have lying around.

Quote from CaesarRoyale on August 10, 2011, 00:33
@ShiftPlusOne
I was thinking of using the Android version when that came out, a different team is converting it over to C++ for Android and Xbox 360.

Also, for emulation, maybe I could find a copy of Windows 98 on eBay and be able to use actual DOS. XD

Ah, didn't know they were porting it to c++... that's awesome. I thought they'd sooner find a way to run java on 360. I guess there's a lot of money in the xbox market for them to do that.

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:59 am

I think performance will be comparable to that of a Pandora.

About 5000 cycles in DosBox. More or less. (Exophase steps in with a "not all cycles are created equal" comment :P )
It doesn't map perfectly to an x86 speed, but a reasonably estimate would be a 386/33 right now. But it's just an estimate. There are some games that required a 486 that'll run fine, and some that required a 386 that'll slow to a crawl. If you want to know if it'll work on the Pandora, try running it in DosBox on your PC at 5000 cycles, that'd give you a good idea of how well it'll work.
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Daggerfall needs about 10000 cycles, so I stand by my original point. Daggerfall is way too demanding to run on a Raspberry Pi.

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:31 am

Quote from ShiftPlusOne on August 10, 2011, 01:59
I think performance will be comparable to that of a Pandora.


Heh... Not quite. There's at least a smidge of performance difference between an ARM11 (which is what an R-Pi is using right now to keep costs down as much as anything...) and a Cortex A8, which is what the Pandora, BeagleBoard, Droid, Nook Color and a few others are sporting. As an observation, the mostly native-code DosBox for Android can't do worth flip in playing a title that was done for a 486/Pentium era box (It does slideshow play of Ascendancy...) That's against an A9 based dual-core Tegra 2 tablet.

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:53 am

Well, I'd expect the ARM11 to be slower, but it's meant to be 700MHz, vs the 600MHz+ of the Pandora, so it's hard to compare. However, for the purpose of proving that Daggerfall won't run, I think the comparison works.

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:51 am

Quote from Svartalf on August 10, 2011, 04:31
Quote from ShiftPlusOne on August 10, 2011, 01:59
I think performance will be comparable to that of a Pandora.


Heh... Not quite. There's at least a smidge of performance difference between an ARM11 (which is what an R-Pi is using right now to keep costs down as much as anything...) and a Cortex A8, which is what the Pandora, BeagleBoard, Droid, Nook Color and a few others are sporting. As an observation, the mostly native-code DosBox for Android can't do worth flip in playing a title that was done for a 486/Pentium era box (It does slideshow play of Ascendancy...) That's against an A9 based dual-core Tegra 2 tablet.


Some figures

* ARM11: 1.2 DMIPS/MHz
* ARM Cortex A8: 2.0 DMIPS/MHz
* ARM Cortex A9: 2.5 DMIPS/MHz

So an A11 at 700 Mhz gives 840 and a C-A8 at 600 gives 1200 DMIPS, so the C-A8 is much faster in the Pandora. This is offset somewhat by the very fast GPU in the Raspi, but only when used effectively in encode/decode of video, OpenGL and OpenVG.

That won't however help in the DOSBox case, which won't use the accelerated features of the GPU.

The choice of the A11 in the Raspi is entirely dictated by available chips from the GPU supplier, and without Eben's knowledge of the chip development the Raspi probably wouldn't be feasible.

Also remember that a 700Mhz Arm is always slower than an equivalent 700Mhz x86 device as the Arm is RISC which means less work is done per cycle. This is offset by the much better power behaviour of the Arm vs x86. Since you need multiple Arm instructions to emulate a single x86 instruction (perhaps up to 10 - I'm not sure), you can see why the Arm would struggle with the more complex Dos applications.
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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:55 am

Ah that's a shame. I had a feeling it would be slower, just didn't think it would be that much slower. Hopefully it's able to handle a lightweight desktop.

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Re: What DOS games can it run?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:37 pm

Yeah, MC is going to C++ so it can run easier on Phones and consoles, as it is making it's port over to the xbox and android market this november i beleive.

EDIT: Lol sorry didn't see the 3rd page. Well, that is hard when an ARM device is much slower, however most games didn't require more than 70 MHz anyways, and if i somehow get my hands on Windows 95/98 with actual DOS, how could that work out?

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