Cylon
Posts: 30
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Location: Peterborough

Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:17 pm

Hopefully no one will get offended by this, After all we should all be here to help each other come what may.

I have for a few weeks now watched with interest the forums and countless opinions and such like based on the RASPI Project its goals and other such matters.

In a heated frenzy of debate some of us have truly lost the plot over the real goals of the whole foundations ideas, goals etc, along with some sometimes patronising answers and replies to member posts.

I think we should have a set of Forums for Novice, Expert and Demi 'Linux-PI' Gods. The fact that Liam, and his 'excellent tutorials' are done just shows what one person can do, imagine the whole membership doing the same. It all takes time and I know we are all very excited about the PI.

Maybe Structuring the forums this way we can allow the people who come from none technical or other platforms/architectures to raise questions and get involved in the whole experience that this should be - Discovery - Learning - Involvement, things which we should be teaching as the norm to our younger/pupil individuals of the world...

I applaud the Foundation for its work so far, and sparking an interest in the world for such a small device. Its british and we should be moving and motivating our members and schools to promote these individuals from novice to expert and on...

Everyone starts somewhere and even the seasoned PC (windows) or Mac user can feel daunted at both the command line in 'Linux' and other not so familiar paradigms, ways of working or configuration of the system.

How complex you see a system relies on experience, but the experience if not relevant leaves you with a some what daunting task of learning something new.

I have been in Computing, IT and such like for over 25 Years and even i learn something new each day from some of you. Patience is a virtue...

No pi's where hurt during this post

oninoshiko
Posts: 76
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Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:46 pm

I have heard a number of posts about seperating the forums into "experence levels." I'm not so sure that's a good idea.

Back in the day, they used to teach in small schools, students at all levels in the same room. I've read accounts that seem to suggest that this exposed the yonger studedents to the concepts that the older students where studying. This gave them a head start when they did get to that level.

Yes, the stuff from below or above your experence level may seem like noise, but it does have a perpose.

Alchemy
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:10 pm

Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:17 pm

Over time Novice questions will get answered better. But that is about time and experience not through separation.

Cylon
Posts: 30
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Location: Peterborough

Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:23 pm

Im not saying separate the members, hell no, but I think there needs to be some levels, and I think people are being treated unfairly sometimes.

I totally agree on your point about mix levels of ability being together, but I also think respecting the levels is key.

Quote : "Back in the day, they used to teach in small schools, students at all levels in the same room. I've read accounts that seem to suggest that this exposed the yonger studedents to the concepts that the older students where studying. This gave them a head start when they did get to that level."

Yes : Agree but I never saw them being put down for their 'current experience' 

Where i'm coming from is some members and individuals outside of here are obviously not from a community like this, they need support not berating.

I believe in helping people first. Directing them to a more informed way and hoping they stay on the bus for the ride. If they need a little more help with the detail i'd happily help them out if it meant going 1 or 2 stops more than I needed too.

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Tass
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Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:27 pm

Agreed - when I started on Ubuntu a few years back I jumped in the deep end and never looked back! Generally I found even the most advanced members had a lot of time for noob questions and did a pretty good job of explaining things in a simple way.  As people advance in their skills, having had that guidance they did the same for new members, and so on.  And that's the sort of community we're building up here.  Pretty much the definition of the word "ubuntu" actually

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Tass
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Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:35 pm

Cylon said:


Where i'm coming from is some members and individuals outside of here are obviously not from a community like this, they need support not berating.


Maybe I've missed certain posts, but I don't believe I've seen anyone being berated when they've simply been asking for support?

As in my previous post, most people here (and in other Linux forums) go out their way to help new members

EDIT: Not meaning to berate you in any way

kasperl
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:20 pm

Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:41 pm

I don't think seperating by user level would nesecarily be the solution. Splitting by topic (I2C devices, Cameras, Screens, etc) might be better. But I think Liz mentioned earlier that after the release they'll be fixing the forums and starting with new software and such. That'll probably solve a lot of problems

Cylon
Posts: 30
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Location: Peterborough

Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:43 pm

Maybe berate was a strong word I apologize ... but i think you understand.



Personally i love forums, and i apply myself to many not just IT but also Music, DJ and other forums, also Synth Forums and the like. Community is Key yes.

We are all Jedi's, just some are padawan's, some Jedi full blown and other may tend towards the dark side

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Tass
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Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:50 pm

Cylon said:

We are all Jedi's, just some are padawan's, some Jedi full blown and other may tend towards the dark side

+1


Andre_P
Posts: 241
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Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:14 pm

All golden sandal wearers are equal, some however are more golden than others.

bitplane
Posts: 25
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Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:27 pm

I say this all over the web over and over again:

The key piece of advice regarding forum administration is that forums are delicate creatures that feed on eyeballs and voices. Users expect a good forum to be a buzzing hub of activity, so they need to be above a critical mass to survive. Most people are reluctant to post in old threads because they want a conversation, active threads are stale if the last post was older than a few days ago.

The correct time to split a forum depends on your threshold for noise, if new and/or important threads are quickly being pushed off the first page (within a few hours), the first thing that should be done is to ignore it for as long as is possible!

If you fork at the peak of a popularity spike then you run the risk of starving all forums when the new traffic dries up, this usually causes all your old users to gravitate around the most popular one while the others are neglected, which turns new users off as they now have a smaller chance of selecting the active one for support, then don't bother registering when they see how dead it is. This causes a slow death as more users leave than join, the Internet is littered with the remnants of once-popular megaforums.

If and when you do split, do very carefully, in response to long-term organic growth and with the sole intention of filtering noise.

It's much harder to merge forums than it is to split them, everyone has to agree that the community isn't as big as it was, or that new forum was a failed experiment. Objectivity is obviously key, but people (myself included) rarely swallow their pride before its too late. If the top threads are sat idle for days and you can see weeks into the past on the first page then it's time for that merge.

One day I'm going to write a spider to prove or disprove these hypotheses, but in the meantime please take my unsupported opinions as wisdom!

Cylon
Posts: 30
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Location: Peterborough

Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:53 pm

Funny really been a bugger for posting as and when I need to I revist forums and post months/years after only to find people do actually come back.

Some of the best forums I have been on recently have got threads years old. I own a Yamaha AN1x synth. Its unbelievably popular because new people come on line all the time and post on threads long thought dead. I was on a MAC Pro forum earlier discussing CPU upgrades etc... that thread was 2 years old.

Forums are definitely funny things. But I do believe the admins here do a excellent job of keeping us mostly in check given the rampant nature of our suspense at getting are hands on a PI.

What I was trying to say initially, was the PI as obviously got the attention of a lot of none ARM/LINUX peeps and maybe (?) some sort of splitting would be useful, however I dont wish to infer hierarchy or anything else.

I sort of gone and done it now havent I, I just want happy PI-People, I dont presume to know everything, and I would be happy sitting in a class of Novices listening to what they can come up with knowing that for all my expertise I still dont know everything.

Sometimes what appears to be the simplest of questions has a more detailed answer than you realised when answering.

Skygod
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:22 am

Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:19 am

The biggest problem with forum software is inadequate search. For a PC hardware forum there will be many TLA's (Three Letter Acronyms) and a lot of forum software sets a minimum of 4 characters for search.

The biggest problem with forum users are 'trolls' and 'thread f...ers' as the title of the thread can lead to a completely different subject being discussed within it. This is when the 'mods' have their work cut out as they effectively need to review every post on the board which is no fun at all.

When forum 'regulars' see the same old questions being asked they often get fed up and 'berate' the OP with terse UTFS (Use The F.... Search) responses (e.g. "How can I connect my VGA monitor to a RPi?"), so I do agree that a 'newbie' section be setup with absolutely no flaming allowed and those that are looking for more detailed or techie information can simply avoid that part of the forum when looking for such information.

Alchemy
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:10 pm

Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:11 am

You can't call it Newbie forum.

Something like "Getting started with a Raspberry Pi". For setup and early programming.

JoeDaStudd
Posts: 274
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Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:18 am

I think a lot of the issue is the current categories or lack of.

At the moment it breaks down something like this:

20% shipping or release queries

20% software queries

20% addition hardware queries

20% questions which are answered in the FAQ

The last 20% is general talk.

Simply adding Hardware discussion and Software discussion boards would make a big difference, allowing for pinned/stickied posts like the other boards have.

If the Add a New Topic button gave a popup or notification saying "Have you checked the FAQ or used the search option?" or similar, I would hope it would reduce the numbr of duplicated threads.

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Tass
Posts: 535
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Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:22 am

While I don't agree with the separation of users (sorry, dead horse, I know), the idea of a forum about "Getting Started" sounds like a good idea.

Admins can change their standard response to "Have you checked the 'Getting Started' forum?"   Seriously though, I do think it'll help steer people in the right direction.  The FAQ is great, but it lacks the give-and-take that new member could do with being introduced to.

Volunteers could even sign up to a weekly "Tour of Duty", answering questions?

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RaTTuS
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Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:30 am

way to do it is have a introduction forum - where you can only post if you have less than 4 posts - encourage to post in a welcome , a test post and 2 others .. then that allows you to post in the general forums - will cut down on some of the general FAQ ones....

will not solve all problems but will help
How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

kasperl
Posts: 90
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Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:05 am

RaTTuS said:


way to do it is have a introduction forum - where you can only post if you have less than 4 posts - encourage to post in a welcome , a test post and 2 others .. then that allows you to post in the general forums - will cut down on some of the general FAQ ones....

will not solve all problems but will help



And greatly tick of some users who end up doing a very extended sort of CAPTCHA before actually posting a sensible question.

Chris.Rowland
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:45 pm

Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:26 am

Who provides answers? The users with less than 4 posts as well?

Maybe something similar to the StackExchange model would work.  I'm not a great fan and it only works if a significant number of people are prepared to play the SE game.

We had one called AstroAnswers for a while when they were talking about a paid for service and it seemed useful but they killed it when they changed the way they were working.

Chris

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mkopack
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Re: Novice, Expert, Demi God Forums ???

Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:23 pm

PErsonally, I'm hoping they split the forums up into multiple categories... For instance:

Foundation Annoucements

Newcomers

\ setup issues

\ Basic Linux questions

Software

\ Pi Specific

\ Pi OS'es

\Fedora

\Debian

(etc)

\ Programming

\ Python

(etc)

Hardware

\ GPIO

\ Power

\ Cameras

Add ons

\ Gertboard

and so on...

That would break things up so the discussions would be more focused, the experts can choose to help or not the raw beginners, etc.

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