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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:43 am

exposing the 2nd camera interface ,
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SATA
Connectors down 1 or 2 sides only
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:32 pm

Onboard WiFi and Bluetooth. Then there will be zero issue with only having 2 USB ports, heck you could probably go down to 1 at that point.

As for all of the requests for faster CPU and more RAM, I have a feeling that once Wayland is up and running to replace X that this will largely be a non-issue (at least so far as it concerns basic GUI lagginess).

Will also be interesting to see how the BeagleBone Black fares in the market. Lots of goodies and the price is far more compelling than previous Beagleboards.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:41 pm

RTD1 wrote:Onboard WiFi and Bluetooth. Then there will be zero issue with only having 2 USB ports, heck you could probably go down to 1 at that point.

As for all of the requests for faster CPU and more RAM, I have a feeling that once Wayland is up and running to replace X that this will largely be a non-issue (at least so far as it concerns basic GUI lagginess).

Will also be interesting to see how the BeagleBone Black fares in the market. Lots of goodies and the price is far more compelling than previous Beagleboards.
BBB is doing pretty well. It's media abilities lag well behind the Raspi, and it suffers from less community support, but it is a nice bit of kit. It's not really made an impact on Raspi sales yet.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:46 pm

It is certainly interesting how the smartphone and tablet boom is creating a large pool of very cheap yet powerful generation or two old ARM chips, for things like single board computers.

Too bad there's not an easy way to harvest components from old smartphones and tablets, it's a shame what gets thrown away.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:16 pm

jamesh wrote: BBB is doing pretty well. It's media abilities lag well behind the Raspi, and it suffers from less community support, but it is a nice bit of kit. It's not really made an impact on Raspi sales yet.
In fact I believe the Raspberry Pi had an impact on the BeagleBone.

The original BeagleBone is $89 the BBB is $45 with faster memory and processor. A few features were remove on the BBB compared to the BB. I find it significant that they placed a video connector onto the BBB that the BB does not have. I believe they were trying to put themselves into contention with the Raspberry Pi. And they have made an effort in trying to open up their community.

I see the BBB board is somewhere between the A model and B model in features. With a couple that people have asked for in the "C model" posts like OTG and onboard flash.

Even though its GPU may not be up to the RasPi, I think it will do well as a server or in robotics. As I have pointed out in this thread, you really do not need much GPU for a server setup.

So far they have sold just over 56,000 units. Far behind the RasPi.

So yes it is a nice bit of kit!
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:59 pm

There is an interview posted here:
http://tuxradar.com/content/%EF%BB%BFin ... eben-upton
EU: We have no room for additional RAM on the device at the moment. We’ve established that that’s as much RAM as we’re ever going to have - we have no ability to expand the RAM because that’s all the SoC (system on a chip) can talk to. We have no ability to increase the amount of processing power because that’s the amount of processing power the SoC has got.

We don’t really have a hardware roadmap.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:59 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote:There is an interview posted here:
http://tuxradar.com/content/%EF%BB%BFin ... eben-upton
EU: We have no room for additional RAM on the device at the moment. We’ve established that that’s as much RAM as we’re ever going to have - we have no ability to expand the RAM because that’s all the SoC (system on a chip) can talk to. We have no ability to increase the amount of processing power because that’s the amount of processing power the SoC has got.

We don’t really have a hardware roadmap.
That is an EXTREMELY interesting interview. If the Parallellia people are half as clever as Eben thinks they are, they'll simply send him one as soon as they have the devices in production.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:07 pm

LXF: In the back of your mind, you haven’t got Raspberry Pi 2?

EU: I think it would be really sad, and probably fatal for us, if we were still shipping the same Raspberry Pi in 2016, say. I think we’ll have to do something but I don’t know what that something is. I think it’s actually very difficult to specify what that something would be. The real problem is that I can imagine boards I could build at any price between $25 and $85. I can imagine a different board that I could build every $10 as you go up. I can imagine a different board that I could build at each $10 increment. None of which are currently being built. But finding one that’s actually attractive, that’s got the same kind of attractiveness of the Pi - Pi’s attractive because it’s got a really interesting price/performance tradeoff. It really is extremely hard to do. I certainly don’t think that at the $25-$35 price point, I can’t think of any other board I could build. With any chip that’s available to me, I can’t think of any board that I could build at say $25 or even $35 that would be as good as Pi, let alone better.

But it’s a push even at $45. $55 I could imagine that you’d start to get to the point where you can start to get better but it’s interesting that there’s nothing out there right now.
So it appears Eben, at least, believes there will have to be an updated version in the future. It seems before 2016. I am sure this also depends upon when the BCM2835 reaches "end of life"

The original RasPi took something like 7 years from idea to design to production. A new one would probably take a year or so to design and then think about production. That is if they keep the design "in house" as they did for the first models. They could probably do the next one in months if they have the next SoC already in mind.

When, and if, they get to that stage it is going to be very interesting to see if they have been watching these "Model C" threads or not. And what they decide makes sense or not!
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:11 pm

Broadcom can keep making chips to order as long as the order is big enough, so end of life is not such a hard and fast date.

As for keeping an eye on these sorts of threads...yes. Although most of the requests are pretty standard - faster better cheaper. Faster/more cores, more RAM, SATA.

I agree - that interview is quite interesting.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:28 pm

Lob0426 wrote:The original RasPi took something like 7 years from idea to design to production. A new one would probably take a year or so to design and then think about production. That is if they keep the design "in house" as they did for the first models. They could probably do the next one in months if they have the next SoC already in mind.
Speaking as a designer of consumer electronics with embedded CPU (my stuff is generally less complex than R-Pi) a complete redesign with a new board with new SoC and new features would surely be more than a few months. Less than a year; yes possible. Note that having a basically working design, and having a product shipping are very different. When all various subsystem interactions, board spins, compliance testing and approvals, and supply chain and production issues are considered, I think it would take a miracle to be less than 1 year.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:10 pm

I don't present this as any kind of prediction, but just an anecdote that may provide some indication of how Eben thinks...

At the Maker Faire in Santa Clara in May, I showed Eben a Cubieboard. Turned out, he knew about them but had never seen one. He kind of mused that the Allwinner A10 has a SATA interface, but the cubieboard is the only cheap SBC that exposes it and this struck him as odd.

This tells me that (a) Eben is aware of the features of other available SoCs, (b) he knows about the features exposed on various other SBCs, and (c) the idea of exposing a SATA interface (if the SoC has one) appeals to him.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:52 pm

@jbeale;
Eben and his "team" have an insiders view of BRCM candidates. So that might just shorten their time to product, if they use a BRCM SoC. And they have the experience after the A and B models to work from. There has been mention that the current software could be recompiled for a newer ARM core. And if they were lucky enough to have the same GPU that would also shorten the cycle for them. They also know what their primary manufacturer (Sony, Wales) wants to see in the board design for ease of manufacture. All of these are in their favor now.

But I think it would be more than several months for them if they decide to produce a new version.

And as I stated "if they have the next SoC in mind". I do think some of the "team" has been mulling over the possibilities, but I do not think they have had enough rest after the other models design workload yet. Also it has not been that long since the A Model was released yet.

When they start drawing on napkin's, walls or black boards it will be almost time for a newer board.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:26 am

One of the things that bemuses me, and maybe others, is the question of scale.

Initially, 10k Pis were built. The foundation was allowed to buy such a small number, at a large-volume price, because Broadcom considered it a Good Thing To do.
Now, they are at the 1M per year scale, and anyone with any sense would take that to be large-volume.

But according to Wikipedea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone) for the IPhone:
"Sales in Q4 2008 surpassed temporarily those of Research In Motion's (RIM) BlackBerry sales of 5.2 million units",
"Apple sold 14.1 million iPhones in Q3 2010",
"In Q4 2012, the iPhone 5 and iPhone 4S were the best-selling handsets with sales of 27.4 million (13% of smartphones worldwide) and 17.4 million units, respectively"

So Pi sales aren't actually that large. I wonder what Broadcom considers large-volume.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:03 pm

The following is a point of debate meant for discussion. Its not intended to be a detraction of anyone or anything. If you are not mature and educated enough to understand the difference, please stop reading now.

Perhapse the best thing would be for the Foundation to get out of the hardware business entirely and focus solely on its educational adgenda. Android and iPhone are driving prices to the bottom. By the time you outfit a Raspberry Pi with the monitor, SD card, power supply, wifi, bluetooth, camera, (GPS, digital compass, and NFC), its far surpassed what a much faster and more modern (armv7) Android device can be bought for. There is no indication that this trend will change in the future. It would seem that a better use of resources would be for the Foundation to partner with a hardware maker (like OUYA, Parallela, UDOO, etc).

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:56 pm

Yep all that can be had for much less but then you've got no GPIO real-world IOwhich is the RPi/beaglebone specialty.

As an all-in-one programmable unit its fantastic.

Plus, no low level access to programming them (just Android Java so no choice of Scratch/Python/C/Everything else.

And I get the impression that its this real-world fundamental level type stuff that the Foundation wants to get kids back to :)


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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:59 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote:The following is a point of debate meant for discussion. Its not intended to be a detraction of anyone or anything. If you are not mature and educated enough to understand the difference, please stop reading now.

Perhapse the best thing would be for the Foundation to get out of the hardware business entirely and focus solely on its educational adgenda. Android and iPhone are driving prices to the bottom. By the time you outfit a Raspberry Pi with the monitor, SD card, power supply, wifi, bluetooth, camera, (GPS, digital compass, and NFC), its far surpassed what a much faster and more modern (armv7) Android device can be bought for. There is no indication that this trend will change in the future. It would seem that a better use of resources would be for the Foundation to partner with a hardware maker (like OUYA, Parallela, UDOO, etc).
When it comes down to it, the Foundation IS a hardware business, so getting out of it wouldn't leave much of a Foundation! They make no money from software sales, only HW...
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:39 pm

Just because a device runs Android does not mean its incapable of running Linux (which Android is). But more to the point: The Foundation could partner with a hardware maker to share/justify the cost/volume of creating a more modern Broadcom based SoC that each would use for their respective products. Roku 3 currently has such a chip, however, its been explained that the extras on the part would make it prohibitively expensive to use for future Pis. This is just an example of a possibility of a partnership. Perhaps others could come up with something more creative and/or practical.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:47 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote:Just because a device runs Android does not mean its incapable of running Linux (which Android is). But more to the point: The Foundation could partner with a hardware maker to share/justify the cost/volume of creating a more modern Broadcom based SoC that each would use for their respective products. Roku 3 currently has such a chip, however, its been explained that the extras on the part would make it prohibitively expensive to use for future Pis. This is just an example of a possibility of a partnership. Perhaps others could come up with something more creative and/or practical.
Problem is that any partner taken on would want to make a profit. There isn't much profit to be had on the Raspi board. Also, big companies would want to sell many millions of devices, which may not be possible.

As for the Capri chip on the Roku3, its got a lot of stuff on it, which makes the die large, and die size is what sets the price. Making it just too expensive, and unlikely to drop in price, since you cannot make the die any smaller. If you do want a smaller die/cost, you need to redo the chiop, taking stuff off. If you are doing that, you are talking about a new chip. Expensive. Custom chips are expensive. Very expensive. To keep the Raspi price down it will need to use a SoC that's also used in other platforms, not a chip dedicated to the Raspi. You would need to sell a hell of a lot of chips to make it worthwhile designing one, well in excess of what the Raspi sells.

So the Raspi roadmap, I suppose, depends to a great extent on the roadmaps of SoC makers.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:09 pm

I seriously can't see any competition in the Pi's market. There's no computer and no phone at this price tag (bring your own TV/monitor and keyboard is not a bad idea). Adding lots of stuff gets this cutie out of its scope. In addition, it pays to control the board design (large undevided community follows from this).

Last not least, there's already a partner imo, even if it may not have been written down somewhere. A tight relationship between the foundation and Broadcom cannot be overlooked.

Just one thing: If nothing else, a new hardware should get rid of OTG USB. That's really the only thing still causing headaches.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:09 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote:The following is a point of debate meant for discussion. Its not intended to be a detraction of anyone or anything. If you are not mature and educated enough to understand the difference, please stop reading now.

Perhapse the best thing would be for the Foundation to get out of the hardware business entirely and focus solely on its educational adgenda. Android and iPhone are driving prices to the bottom. By the time you outfit a Raspberry Pi with the monitor, SD card, power supply, wifi, bluetooth, camera, (GPS, digital compass, and NFC), its far surpassed what a much faster and more modern (armv7) Android device can be bought for. There is no indication that this trend will change in the future. It would seem that a better use of resources would be for the Foundation to partner with a hardware maker (like OUYA, Parallela, UDOO, etc).
First of all, that's a perfectly fair discussion point, not taken as a rant at all.

BUT: the raspi was never intended to be the centre of such a system. It was supposed to be a bare board that would allow kids to plug in the TV and write and run simple programs, without affecting the setup of the family laptop. Originally it wasn't even going to have a GPIO connector! For this sort of money, there is still no other device I know of that can compete.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:28 pm

thradtke wrote:I seriously can't see any competition in the Pi's market. There's no computer and no phone at this price tag (bring your own TV/monitor and keyboard is not a bad idea). Adding lots of stuff gets this cutie out of its scope. In addition, it pays to control the board design (large undevided community follows from this).

Last not least, there's already a partner imo, even if it may not have been written down somewhere. A tight relationship between the foundation and Broadcom cannot be overlooked.

Just one thing: If nothing else, a new hardware should get rid of OTG USB. That's really the only thing still causing headaches.
As far as I know, the USB issues are pretty much sorted. The Foundation has one (new employee) person working full time on fixing up the last issues, and Gordon works on it part time.

Any nr future BRCM chip is unlikely to change the USB HW - too expensive/too short a timescale
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:23 pm

Burngate wrote: So Pi sales aren't actually that large. I wonder what Broadcom considers large-volume.
Since the SoC (ARM) manufacturing market is pretty fragmented, it's probably very hard to say. Certainly "millions", and quite possibly "tens of millions" on an annual basis.

IIRC, the current, annual, smartphone market is on the order of magnitude of 500 million, so one could try to determine what Broadcom's share of that is. I t doesn't appear to include Apple (proprietary, custom designs) or Samsung (they make their own chips...and have been an Apple supplier).

However, prior to the advent of the Pi, the market for hobbiest SBCs would have been...what? 10s of thousands per year? What kind of market did the Beagleboard have? Even if you include the Arduino--a device that isn't really in the same class as a Pi--are you even talking about 100k/year sales volume?

Now everyone seems to be trying to get into the act. One wonders how many of the small scale startups, the ones that struggle to make a few thousand boards their first year, will survive for more than a year or two and then disappear? With its current sales volume, the Pi looks to have a very good shot at survival, but even that isn't certain. Get Pis into places with a sustained interest in places like schools, that survival becomes a lot more assured.

The other thing the Foundation has managed--probably in part due to be first at its price point, and a price point low enough to be essentially a "throw away" device--is the growth of a large, active support community. Other boards are already leveraging off the efforts of Pi systems programmers. In the long run, it may be that other SBC makers will be constrained by a need to be software-compatible to whatever the Foundation produces in order to have viable systems.

I could actually see some company coming to the Foundation offering hardware pricing and design help and support in exchange for using their chips for whatever version of the Pi came next. Probably the biggest constraint on that would be the close relationship between the Foundation and Broadcom. On the other hand, it would be clever of Broadcom, when working on a chip design to at least look at the issues presented in these forums and--just perhaps--make some minor adjustments to make some new chip that would be suitable in a future Pi or Pi-like device.

One can only hope...though I'm afraid it's a bit too much of the tail wagging the dog.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:20 pm

Given enough time the Pi will fail to be a value. Eventually the price will have to go down or the tech will have to go up.

One thing that is not easily replicated is the community and the installed base. My personal opinion is that once the cost gets down enough there should be some pack-ins like an HDMI cable, SD card, or a PSU. Rather than making a new version an fragmenting things. There is always something that could be better on any given product. I've never bought a peice of tech and gotten everything I need or want even when putting to gather a $2000 power hungry intel rig.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:44 pm

Jessie wrote:Given enough time the Pi will fail to be a value. Eventually the price will have to go down or the tech will have to go up.
I strongly suspect that would be "tech goes up". There is always going to be a certain irreducible minimum cost to assemble a device, pack it, and ship it to the distributor. The only way to drive cost equation, even marginally, is going to be improved components over time. On that front, I'd start with better voltage regulators.
One thing that is not easily replicated is the community and the installed base. My personal opinion is that once the cost gets down enough there should be some pack-ins like an HDMI cable, SD card, or a PSU. Rather than making a new version an fragmenting things. There is always something that could be better on any given product. I've never bought a peice of tech and gotten everything I need or want even when putting to gather a $2000 power hungry intel rig.
I did pretty well when spec'ing and ordering my wife's new gaming rig about 4 months ago (i5-3570K @ 3.4 GHz, nVidia GTX 660, 16 GB RAM, etc.), but I see your point. If extras could be included, the first thing I'd put on the list would be a decent power supply. The *problem* with including a power supply is the wide variety of outlets in use around the world.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:02 am

As @jamesh said The foundation is basically a hardware company. In the interview @Eben seems to believe they will have to upgrade the design, or the Foundation will not make it.

So we will probably see an updated device by 2016, maybe earlier, maybe not. Their challenge will be to not have to remake all of the software all over.

If they can keep the VC4 GPU and just adopt an upgraded ARM they can probably do that. That will also lead to a memory change. And an all new PCB. Almost a start over proposition if the current software can be adapted.

The BRCM 11311 has been mentioned as well as another chip. I am sure the problem will be the price point of any of the likely candidate chips .So I believe some of them are already, at least half way, looking at a future SoC.

We will just have to wait and see!
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