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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:13 pm

0117blocky wrote:Top of my list for a Rpi model C would be a third USB 2.0 port, so I could connect microcontrollers, hard drive or memory sticks ,etc without the need to buy or use a hub. This would not only save on cost, but also, not having another two cables and box sitting/ lying on your desk.

Even this would require a major redesign of the on board power distribution at least. and maybe a new Soc.
It would need a new power distribution as you say, and a redesign of the board. Perhaps the additional port(s) could be on pin headers? It wouldn't need a new SoC, just replace the LAN9512 with a LAN9514 to get 4 usb ports instead of two.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:55 pm

@rpdom
I did wonder if the lan chip could be replaced or not . I'd rather see a third usb socket than pins but,the forth port could be put on a header.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:27 pm

umm lan9514 looks like a nice addon ....
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:31 pm

What everyone needs to do is come up with ideas -if its not too late anyway, the Model C might already be at the fabricators and launch on Friday - that would enhance the RPi for education but actually is something they want to help automate their microbrewery :)

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:36 pm

simplesi wrote:the Model C might already be at the fabricators and launch on Friday
The pigs are fuelled and ready for take off!

(They never launch things on a Friday.)

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:57 pm

I forgot - its Release Bad News day - not a launch day :)
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:57 pm

Would have been good if they released it just a the EdSec was about to speak - we'd see what trended more :)
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:03 pm

simplesi wrote:Would have been good if they released it just a the EdSec was about to speak -
There's a thing that really needs an upgrade... :roll:

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:42 pm

simplesi wrote:Would have been good if they released it just a the EdSec was about to speak - we'd see what trended more :)
It's such a shame we have an EdSec who has to have his speech written for him because he can't spell computer or computing. He can only just spell Word & Excel.

He's almost as useless as the MP for Basingstoke who can't spell culture, media or sport.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:09 pm

RaTTuS wrote:umm lan9514 looks like a nice addon ....
agree!!! :idea:
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:33 pm

simplesi wrote:What everyone needs to do is come up with ideas -if its not too late anyway, the Model C might already be at the fabricators and launch on Friday - that would enhance the RPi for education but actually is something they want to help automate their microbrewery :)

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:40 pm

teeth_03 wrote:Mini-ITX is too big, I propose keep the current size and call it Pi-TX :)

Its not like you can't buy cases for them, a Model C should hopefully keep the same layout. I think the ports on the Pi are fine, if anything upgrade the USB to 3 and the Ethernet to Gigabit and that would help the I/O for it while keeping the format the same.

For my usage as a file server, my Pi would benefit more from better I/O than a faster processor or more RAM. But if they managed to include USB 3, Gigabit Ethernet, a faster clock on the CPU and maybe 1 GB of RAM on the same package, I think it would help to bring the Pi up to speed a little. I'm not saying I need all of those, but those are 4 things to look to upgrade while keeping the layout and size of the Pi the same.
im not talking about a "model C", I'm talking about a PC replacement. For that you need to tap the existing infrastructure, that means you should choose a board size that fits existing PC enclosures.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:12 pm

jamesh wrote: Raspberry releases are like Ninja's, you don't see them coming. The Spanish inquisition was the same....because....NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
FYI the next version of the Raspberry Pi shall include a comfy chair, and with a simple apt-get install haberdashery you will get marvellous sequinned cushions.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:05 am

@james
The exact opposite is true in fact :)

EVERYBODY is expecting a Model C ASAP :)

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:01 am

simplesi wrote:@james
The exact opposite is true in fact :)

EVERYBODY is expecting a Model C ASAP :)

Simon
which doesn't mean they are getting them.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:14 am

jamesh wrote:
simplesi wrote:What everyone needs to do is come up with ideas -if its not too late anyway, the Model C might already be at the fabricators and launch on Friday - that would enhance the RPi for education but actually is something they want to help automate their microbrewery :)
Raspberry releases are like Ninja's, you don't see them coming. The Spanish inquisition was the same....because....NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
it would be nice if there is to be a model-c, that the community were asked what they'd like.

at the moment i see the market is full of "not quite" devices:

pi - awesome for htpc, useless analogue sound, no analogue I/O, flaky shared usb/network subsystem, fullsize sdcards, microusb power, armv6 so few (no?) officially supported distros;

bbb - useless gfx, no sound, analogue I/O, timers, interrupts, serial, onboard storage, microsd, barrel jack for power, armv7 so good linux/android support;

arduino yun - all the usual arduino hardware plus limited wifi and a crippled linux, way overpriced;

slap the pi's gfx and power requirements on a bbb with onboard wifi like the yun but keep the price under £50 and you might have something interesting.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:20 am

jamesh wrote:
Ravenous wrote:Well my real point was you can buy or build that now, without waiting a few years for the foundation to do it. After all, they may not do it the way we would want.
What a Foundation produced device would bring is lower cost, better support, and backwards compatibility with the current Pi.

Note I am not saying at all that such a device is on its way. I have no idea what Eben has in mind. Just indicating what it would bring to a not particularly crowded party.

I do wonder why the BBB is still struggling to sell. It's a bit faster than the Pi, and has some nice features. I guess it's mainly down to the price and support, and public knowledge.
The price of the BBB is pretty good, but then look at the number of people that have posted that had trouble affording the RasPi. $10 higher does seem to make a BIG difference. And Support and Community seem to be pillars that hold the RasPi where it is.

Until a company or foundation is ready to meet those things, it obviously is not going to be as successful, At least not in this same game!
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:57 am

mahjongg wrote:im not talking about a "model C", I'm talking about a PC replacement. For that you need to tap the existing infrastructure, that means you should choose a board size that fits existing PC enclosures.
That makes you sound somewhat insane.

So you have a small SBC and it will easily fit multiple units inside any current PC enclosure and you want to make it bigger?

Most important aspects.

SMALLER is better
CHEAPER is better

I was actually thinking the next model should be vastly smaller, possibly 25mm or 35mm square by 10mm deep formfactor, the chip package becomes the bus hardware. With certain geometries, and pin layouts on package I think it would be possible to have a pop bga stacking system that would allow most of the current micro connectors(micro hdmi, micro usb, micro SDHC, and FFC cables, RJ45, even 2.54mm header pins) to be implemented in a standardised chip stack system. Unfortunatly I imagine the development of the physical package manufacturing processes would be very high, but it could probably greatly reduce final manufacturing cost, make easier specialist app integration, hobbyist hacking, and upgrading.

I could probably do a sketch up of it but I can't be bothered spending hours doing something I cannot implement myself and no one is interested in.

Of course my idea is probably insane also, or perharps its genius? :lol:

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:04 pm

I'm guessing most connectors couldn't go into the oven... anyone know the tech details?

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:52 pm

mung wrote:
mahjongg wrote:im not talking about a "model C", I'm talking about a PC replacement. For that you need to tap the existing infrastructure, that means you should choose a board size that fits existing PC enclosures.
That makes you sound somewhat insane.

So you have a small SBC and it will easily fit multiple units inside any current PC enclosure and you want to make it bigger?

Most important aspects.

SMALLER is better
CHEAPER is better

I was actually thinking the next model should be vastly smaller, possibly 25mm or 35mm square by 10mm deep formfactor, the chip package becomes the bus hardware. With certain geometries, and pin layouts on package I think it would be possible to have a pop bga stacking system that would allow most of the current micro connectors(micro hdmi, micro usb, micro SDHC, and FFC cables, RJ45, even 2.54mm header pins) to be implemented in a standardised chip stack system. Unfortunatly I imagine the development of the physical package manufacturing processes would be very high, but it could probably greatly reduce final manufacturing cost, make easier specialist app integration, hobbyist hacking, and upgrading.

I could probably do a sketch up of it but I can't be bothered spending hours doing something I cannot implement myself and no one is interested in.

Of course my idea is probably insane also, or perharps its genius? :lol:
Sigh, yes I'm quite insane! :ugeek: I'm also a "picture thinker", which makes me slightly dyslectic too, but a spell checker helps. ;)
So maybe "perharps" the designer of a "PI-PC" needs to settle for the smallest commercially interesting enclosure, "Mac mini style", perhaps the PCB can be smaller (like half the footprint of the enclosure).
But really I think the cost of a slightly larger PCB that has a more convenient arrangement of connectors would be worth it, as is a built in (micro) power supply. I just think there is a market for a "PC replacement" that is cheaper because it uses less hardware to form a computer that can do the tasks an average "PC consumer" requires of it. It will still have Ethernet, USB, HDMI but also SATA hard-disks etc, and more or less looks like the job, but leaves all unnecessary stuff out.
But I fully agree with SMALLER is better and CHEAPER is better, just not to the extreme of the PI, for a more consumer oriented device.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:05 pm

Note that smaller = more expensive.

The Pi is the size it is because of cost. Make it smaller and the components cost more, and are 'harder' to place, which costs more. The Pi size is at the crossover point of smaller = cheaper (less materials) and smaller = more expensive (more costly materials)

Connectors are also a problem at smaller form factors. uHDMI = expensive (and rare), uSD card sockets fragile, are there even standardised uEthernet connectors? uUSB host doesn't exist (or does it? I've never seen one).

So don't expect a smaller one.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:14 pm

About the only things that I can see adding to a Model C would be a faster pipe for I-O. I doubt this is possible but it would be nice. Maybe bring out the third I2C bus. This may not be possible with the current two sided PC board and it's limitations. Anything much beyond that and it would be a different product. Salmonberries anyone? :lol:
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:59 pm

Richard-TX wrote:About the only things that I can see adding to a Model C would be a faster pipe for I-O. I doubt this is possible but it would be nice. Maybe bring out the third I2C bus. This may not be possible with the current two sided PC board and it's limitations. Anything much beyond that and it would be a different product. Salmonberries anyone? :lol:
I think the current board is 5 layers rather than two sided, but the point still stands- difficult to route everything out without adding more layers and that is expensive.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:16 pm

jamesh wrote:I think the current board is 5 layers rather than two sided...
It's still two-sided - and four-edged.
I'm not sure about a three-sided polyhedron, but mabe a four-sided one with six edges ...

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:28 pm

jamesh wrote:Note that smaller = more expensive.

The Pi is the size it is because of cost. Make it smaller and the components cost more, and are 'harder' to place, which costs more. The Pi size is at the crossover point of smaller = cheaper (less materials) and smaller = more expensive (more costly materials)

Connectors are also a problem at smaller form factors. uHDMI = expensive (and rare), uSD card sockets fragile, are there even standardised uEthernet connectors? uUSB host doesn't exist (or does it? I've never seen one).

So don't expect a smaller one.
I don't want to tell you you are wrong, because most humans dislike being told they are wrong and then take dislike to those that suggest such things, often jumping up and down crying and causing harm to the general situation.

You are absolutely correct jamesh smaller is always more expensive.

Most of the cost of mass produced things is development, and developing smaller things can be more expensive, but once all the mistake and bugs and errors of precision are worked out small things are vastly more expensive because you get a much much higher error rate. I heard that when they make microchips on a silicon wafer the smaller the die size the lower the yeild because there are alway imperfections in the cry stall and because the chips are small there are more likely to be crystall impersections that are in a small part of the chip which ruins the whole chip. I have no idea about this as I am not a chip designer but it is an example someone told me.

Also searching ebay for micro hdmi to hdmi cables I find they are vastly more expensive, some costing as much as £0.99 including shipping from china. Micro usb to usb female adaptor cables are astronomical prices some as much as £1.15 including shipping from china. Yes there is actually no such thing as a micro rj45, but I was thinking to actually create a new standard (identical to the RJ45 width length and pin wise, but about 1/3rd the height). all those connectors should be within 3.3mm height?

I don't know how much the circuit board costs as a percentage of the rpi, but if you could dispense with it would it not be better if you could just stack chips together and know that there was a standard that allowed everything to work together with some fpga type on chip signal routing?

Also this could alllow multiple sandwiches of processor/memory/processor/memory as required?

I know this is way beyond anything the foundation could do but there are some real propeller heads at the foundation that I imagine also have some sway with broadcom and other chip manufacturers.

Would it be worthwhile as an industry standardisation project.

Design spec. package on package standard 25mmx25mmx3.3mm or 25x25x1.65mm electronic package 200 connections top and bottom of package, gnd plane bottom supply voltage top, one side for thermal heat sink, three sides for peripheral interfaces, certain pin orientation to prevent incorrect stacking, could be multiple thin flexible circuit board layers sandwiched onto the package before the pins are fired through. Outer pin array pitch at 2.54mm to allow easy interface for hackers with header pin connections.

I can definitely visualise it in my mind, though maybe explaining is not possible, as I am sure there would be unseen problems with such a design, it does seem vastly more expensive to develop it, as all sorts factors I have no idea of need to be taken into account.

Anyway maybe more expense is worthwhile sacrifice for a smaller form factor?

I am sure eventually entire PC systems will be etched onto the silicon of a contact lens powered by the chemicals produced by our basal tears, but maybe a chip stacking system is the next step forward?

Who wants to pay for it?

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