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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:35 am

Lob0426 wrote: We will just have to wait and see!
Yup!
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:54 pm

jamesh wrote:As far as I know, the USB issues are pretty much sorted.
Apparently, build #502 solved all remaining problems I had. Congratulations and thanks to whoever did this (silently). I took it from github (firmware-master archive). Is this build finally containing the FIQ branch?
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:28 pm

thradtke wrote:
jamesh wrote:As far as I know, the USB issues are pretty much sorted.
Apparently, build #502 solved all remaining problems I had. Congratulations and thanks to whoever did this (silently). I took it from github (firmware-master archive). Is this build finally containing the FIQ branch?
I think there is going to be a official firmware release today (if it hasn't already happened - may be the one you have), which has the latest USB fixes.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:08 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote:Perhapse the best thing would be for the Foundation to get out of the hardware business entirely and focus solely on its educational adgenda. Android and iPhone are driving prices to the bottom. By the time you outfit a Raspberry Pi with the monitor, SD card, power supply, wifi, bluetooth, camera, (GPS, digital compass, and NFC), its far surpassed what a much faster and more modern (armv7) Android device can be bought for. There is no indication that this trend will change in the future. It would seem that a better use of resources would be for the Foundation to partner with a hardware maker (like OUYA, Parallela, UDOO, etc).
That is a fair point and in a perfect world it could also be the case. But being a developer at a successful indie mobile company the Android market is very fragmented. You can by 5 Samsung S4's and a good chance not all will run the same game and they may well differ in hardware!

On iOS, if it works on one iPhone 5, it will work on all. On Android, all bets are off. (and I am a bit of an Android fanboy)

I have worked in the past for a company that creates production lines, the PLC's we used had a very static hardware cycle, that is when a model worked the only thing updated is bug fixes to the firmware. I think that it is important that the platform stays the same for a very long time which is why I scaled back my imaginations on a future model. :)

But I did have one thought, and not having any experience in hardware I have no idea if it is the case but instead of new features and extra cores just do an Intel and shrink the chip and allow us to get more clock speed??? Is it that simple???

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:26 pm

RichardUK wrote:But I did have one thought, and not having any experience in hardware I have no idea if it is the case but instead of new features and extra cores just do an Intel and shrink the chip and allow us to get more clock speed??? Is it that simple???
Even if it was that simple, I suspect a die shrink doesn't happen for a chip with only 1M/year sales, unless they get a pretty high markup, or an entire product line is being ported over to a new process (?)

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:58 pm

And its not that simple tbh. You need to redo a lot of the library RTL, as some things just don't work the same at the smaller scale. Manufacturing gets more difficult. Leakage increases. When we moved to 40 from 65nm, there was quite a bit of stuff that needed rework. Going down to 28 or lower means a LOT more work, and the fabs cost a hell of a lot. So not really worth it for the relatively small volume the Raspi gets.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:06 pm

Running the gate from two tracks, can reduce leakage as the leakage has to go from - through a FET and a long track to the fan out salesman, and then back to another FET to +. Extra routing, but higher + to - resistance. Is the capacitance extra worth it?
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:29 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
I did pretty well when spec'ing and ordering my wife's new gaming rig about 4 months ago (i5-3570K @ 3.4 GHz, nVidia GTX 660, 16 GB RAM, etc.), but I see your point. If extras could be included, the first thing I'd put on the list would be a decent power supply. The *problem* with including a power supply is the wide variety of outlets in use around the world.

My gaming rig is a i5 2500k with a 660ti and 16 GB ram, and my wife's work rig that I made last year is a i7 3770k with a gtx 560 and 16GB ram. But I could always use a beefier video card and I have always wanted to make the jump to SSD, but the capacities are still too small for me given the price. Its hard to replace a 3T drive with something much smaller when we actually use that space and much of it is for work. I never skimp on a PSU ever since I had a stint of bad ones I just buy Corsair now. The last one I have bought is going 5 years strong. Its always a matter of money, and I refuse to buy anything on credit (well accept for the home and my education.)

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:50 pm

I'm expecting a couple of 16 core parallella boards and I have a feeling these things are practically the perfect companion for a pi. For around £200 you will be able to plug a supercomputer into your telly.
If the C version of the Pi had a bit more ram and Gbit ethernet with full HD graphics on the Pi I cant think of anything it couldn't do.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:29 pm

I would love to have a RPi with a faster (dual core) processor with a ARM v7. Some sata connectors and an extra Ethernet port would be nice. A more stable (beefier) power supply and some flash would make the unit more robust.

But is this still a necessary for the original target of the RPi? For education the current unit is probably sufficient (if don' t want to process point clouds with a kinect or something).

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:04 pm

Davinci wrote:I would love to have a RPi with a faster (dual core) processor with a ARM v7. Some sata connectors and an extra Ethernet port would be nice. A more stable (beefier) power supply and some flash would make the unit more robust.

But is this still a necessary for the original target of the RPi? For education the current unit is probably sufficient (if don' t want to process point clouds with a kinect or something).
I know this is going to sound like z broken record to the forum junkies out there, but....

You can get a dual core ARMv7 board with one SATA port and 4GB of on-board flash. That's most of what you're asking for. It'll cost you $60.

For "beefier" power supply...that's up to you. They're out there. However, since the current draw of the Pi is limited by F3, what's the point? Rock solid with enough current capability is all you need. Adafruit has done a superb job of meeting that spec with their 5.25v 1A unit. Compensates for poor quality power cables, too.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:41 pm

iv heard of allot of things when iv talked to people. things like extra RAM, faster processor, extra USB, on board wifi on board ROM or extra SD card slot.

but the one iv always loved the thought of, knowing it will most likely never happen is dual processor.

But in all reality, I would like to see faster processor with extra RAM.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:14 pm

Pokedy wrote:iv heard of allot of things when iv talked to people. things like extra RAM, faster processor, extra USB, on board wifi on board ROM or extra SD card slot.

but the one iv always loved the thought of, knowing it will most likely never happen is dual processor.

But in all reality, I would like to see faster processor with extra RAM.
just as impossible as a dual processor, or the other things.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:38 pm

3/4 a GB of ram would be nice. The foundation is big enough now to get the ram custom made.Also a coprocessor that is just a slower ARM11 cpu with less ram (a 2nd gen. ipod touch cpu) would be nice.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:05 am

DrDominodog51 wrote:3/4 a GB of ram would be nice. The foundation is big enough now to get the ram custom made.Also a coprocessor that is just a slower ARM11 cpu with less ram (a 2nd gen. ipod touch cpu) would be nice.
The Foundation is not the producer of the Raspberry Pi any longer. Their partners produce it. Their partners might be big enough now. The profit margin is supposedly very low on the RasPi. The Foundation is basically a board designer now. They have a contract with RS and Element 14 to produce the Raspberry Pi.

The amount of RAM that is on the current version works very well.

Faster RAM would be nice, a faster processor and more GPIO. But none of these is likely to happen for at least couple of years, according to current information.

I would still like to see a version designed as a server version. Maybe we will see in a couple of more seasons!
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:17 am

DrDominodog51 wrote:3/4 a GB of ram would be nice. The foundation is big enough now to get the ram custom made.Also a coprocessor that is just a slower ARM11 cpu with less ram (a 2nd gen. ipod touch cpu) would be nice.
the next step up is 1GB - the SOC can handle it it's just that the memory producers don't make 1GB pop RAM with one CS line AIUI
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:47 am

DrDominodog51 wrote:3/4 a GB of ram would be nice. The foundation is big enough now to get the ram custom made.
Really? Let's have a thought experiment. Foundation approaches a supplier to make a compatible RAM chip of 1GB. Forecast sales, let says, 2M over next 2 years. Cost to design and debug said POP package, $1M (educated guess, probably on the low side). Cost to manufacture per chip, $0.5 (not sure about that one, probably more). Company needs to sell ram for $0.5 + $0.5 each just to make back investment, so probably $0.5+$0.5+$1 to make any worthwhile money. That's $2 per chip. That's a lot. Would the Foundation pay that for a RAM chip given the current one works fine? (I do not know how much the current RAM chip costs)

Now the RAM manufacturer might be able to make money elsewhere selling the chip, but that's an unknown.

I reckon its borderline whether a manufacturer could make money on it,and the Foundation doesn't want to blow a load of cash doing it themselves for sod all benefit.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:45 pm

and that needs to be $1.50 more than the current chip which costs just as much to produce. So add some profit for resellers, and you're looking at adding 10%+ to the cost of a Pi. For something that <0.1% of users need.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:21 pm

The main issue is that most everything has moved to DDR3 or better, away from the DDR2 package that is now used. So this memory probably would only be used on the Raspberry Pi. Limited usage drives up the price. The only other device that I know of that uses this package is the ROKU 2 and it only uses a 64MB PoP. There are probably others but are they still in production?

The time, money and effort will be better spent, and cheaper, if and when the Foundation deems it time for a new version. Also there are other boards in a decent price range that have more memory already. Cubieboard and Cubieboard 2 are examples. I am surprised the Beaglebone Black is not available with a 1GB memory. All of those are DDR3 packages. And all of them are well under $100 USD!

Frankly the 512MB seems to work for 99% of most RasPi users. Some do not even find the 256MB on the A model that confining.

This does not mean I would not like to see more memory. It just means that it can probably wait until it is within means to have it. Not make it custom and costly. Again only time will tell!

The original memory packages were going to be 128MB for the A model and 256MB for the B Model. They have both been doubled. That was in the first year of production. I think the Foundation and their partners are doing a good job on this front!

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:20 am

Lob0426 wrote:I am surprised the Beaglebone Black is not available with a 1GB memory.
The beaglebone black PCB design only supports a single memory chip. Afaict even with DDR3 you don't tend to see more than 4 gigabits (512 megabytes) on a single chip. The pandaboard has a 1GB PoP but as I understand it the PoP in question is a multi-die package.

Most of the recent arm boards i've seen with more than 512MB of ram have used multiple seperate ram chips. The cubieboard has two four gigabit chips for one gigabyte, the cubietruck has four four gigabit chips for two gigabytes. The IMX6 stuff i've seen seems to use either two two gigabit chips for 512 megabytes, four two gigabit chips for one gigabyte or four four gigabit chips for two gigabytes. The odriod stuff does seem to be using 2GB PoPs but I would guess that like the pandboard they are multi-chip modules.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:24 am

Way too many ways to configure the memory packages. The Carrier One board (designed to be form compatible with the Raspi) with i.MX6 uses non PoP memory it is SMT.

The multi-chip memories are designed to be stacked? It would seem that the failure rate would be higher when you have multiple packages that have to be stacked and flowed accurately?

The Panda Board ES has 1GB but only about 740 or so can be used reliably. Some software issue as I understand it. That may be fixed by now.

I guess it all depends upon what SoC is used and what memory it is designed to take. There is no one size fits all memory solution out there.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:02 am

I would place all the connection ports on one or two edges of the board so it can be placed in a case that has a built in screen and/or keyboard.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:09 am

I would put wifi antenna, power, usb, video, and audio headers on it.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:12 pm

And I would build it just as a Processor board with pins only and no other connectors. You would build or buy dongles and daughter cards for all your connection needs.

BUT,,,, the overall cost to own would at least double. Those dongles and cards would be buried in profit margins. The Foundation dodged that by putting only what was needed on the board. To maximize the space the connectors ended up everywhere!

Raspberry Pi A Model $25; B Model $35; Real Time Clock $10 to $15. Cost manufacture RTC board probably about less than $2!

I really think the better model would have been to embed it into a keyboard. That would have brought the price up by that keyboard. The Raspberry Pi could easily have ended up less popular by doing it that way though. Some people do not tear apart $45 pieces of equipment just to get at the heart. But it would have been better for the Foundations goals and solved it needing a case for education.

I am surprised that I have only seen one real keyboard solution manufactured so far. And it is expensive. I am also surprised that a case with built in USB hub has not made an appearance. Both seem sensible but neither has hit a chord hard enough!
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:40 pm

The idea of putting the Pi inside a keyboard is a good one (C64, ZX81 etc) but one of the concepts behind the Pi was that kids could actually see it. They didn't want it hidden in a box otherwise it would just become another box of electronics. Kids can put their Pi in a case, but they get to choose the case and actually fit it themselves ... assuming their dad has finished playing with it at that point :D
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