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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu May 16, 2013 4:45 am

honda4life wrote:Cheap improvements:
- More efficient power regulators, when always on the cost is earned back quite fast.
The suppliers aren't paying your power bill, so that is of no benefit to the Foundation (at least, not for that reason).
- Possibility to shut off ethernet.
Run command: sudo ifdown eth0
- RTC
Where are you going to put it? How much will it add to the BoM?

Besides, there are after-market RTCs that can just be plugged onto the board. They manufacturers might even be able to tell you how to set up the software to use it...
More expensive improvements.
- Wifi / Bluetooth chip
Again... Where are you going to put it on the PCB, and at what cost? (Never mind that some of us are VERY HAPPY that there is no built in WiFi or other wireless port.)

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri May 17, 2013 9:20 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:The suppliers aren't paying your power bill, so that is of no benefit to the Foundation (at least, not for that reason).
This is a small thing you can to to help "saving" the environment just a little bit more without personal drawbacks.
W. H. Heydt wrote:Run command: sudo ifdown eth0
Chip is still a bit hot.
W. H. Heydt wrote:Where are you going to put it? How much will it add to the BoM?
It's a nice to have feature that can be useful.
W. H. Heydt wrote:Again... Where are you going to put it on the PCB, and at what cost? (Never mind that some of us are VERY HAPPY that there is no built in WiFi or other wireless port.)
I have a thing in my pocket that has the same size, integrated monitor, ups, 3G, Wifi, Bluetooth,...

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri May 17, 2013 9:53 pm

Why not break out both camera connectors instead of just one - the community could do 3D and the foundation would sell more cameras.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri May 17, 2013 9:57 pm

pygmy_giant wrote:Why not break out both camera connectors instead of just one - the community could do 3D and the foundation would sell more cameras.
Both? There is only one camera connector.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri May 17, 2013 10:06 pm

Exactly - the video chip has 2 inputs, but at present only one is available via a connector on the board.

If the 2nd was also joined to a second connector then the Pi could have 2 cameras connected to it and see in 3d, or switch between the two.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sat May 18, 2013 2:00 am

honda4life wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:The suppliers aren't paying your power bill, so that is of no benefit to the Foundation (at least, not for that reason).
This is a small thing you can to to help "saving" the environment just a little bit more without personal drawbacks.
There are two factors here. One is that the manufacturing process would have to pay for the more expensive power regulation and do so within the existing price structure. So on that end there is only cost, not savings.

For the individual, savings are going to be on the order 1W...or maybe less, but lets go with 1W. There are--rounding up--8766 hours in a year (per command "units"). So the annual savings is just a smidge under 9 KWH for *each* Pi that is left on all the time. So, depending local power charges, that's probably going to be less than $2...per *year*. I don't know about you, but that sort of "savings" is lost in the noise of the full bill.

I will agree that better power regulators would be a nice idea, if only because--with a decent one--you *could* power a Pi with 4 Alkaline batteries (nominally 6v) without problems. However, it is only reasonable for that change to happen if the economies of scale drop the cost of doing so to a level that doesn't impact the end user price.
W. H. Heydt wrote:Run command: sudo ifdown eth0
Chip is still a bit hot.
You're talking about the LAN chip, right? Remember that that chip also controls the 2 USB ports. If you want to cut out that issue...get a Model A. It doesn't have the LAN chip.
W. H. Heydt wrote:Where are you going to put it? How much will it add to the BoM?
It's a nice to have feature that can be useful.
I agree that it's a "nice to have", but you still haven't answered the cost or board real estate points.
W. H. Heydt wrote:Again... Where are you going to put it on the PCB, and at what cost? (Never mind that some of us are VERY HAPPY that there is no built in WiFi or other wireless port.)
I have a thing in my pocket that has the same size, integrated monitor, ups, 3G, Wifi, Bluetooth,...
That thing in your pocket doesn't expose GPIO pins and doesn't let you pick your own OS or any of a variety of other things you can do with a Pi. It also costs quite a bit more than a Pi. So...your point is...?

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun May 19, 2013 10:53 am

In my opinion these would be the recommendations for the upcoming model:

-CPU: I would keep the Pi on ARM given the very low consumption with a possible speed bump
-RAM: Increasing the ram for such device will definitely improve its performance - I would hope for 1GB

and my TOP PRIORITY would be the use of a MICRO SD and having the board designed such that the card can be fitted without being left hanging out of the case as is currently with the SD card.

I hope Raspberry Pi Foundation consider such sensible improvement. Thanks.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun May 19, 2013 12:01 pm

I think ARM is a given for any next gen device, as is more memory. uSD, well, we specifically didnt use it because the sockets are more fragile (and expensive) and cards easily lost. That's not going to change (and you can also use an adapter to size up, but not the other way round).
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun May 19, 2013 12:36 pm

goci wrote:In my opinion these would be the recommendations for the upcoming model:-
I think 'upcoming model' is a bit optimistic. I do not see a new model appearing anytime in the near future as it would require major re-engineering to handle a different SoC chip.
and my TOP PRIORITY would be the use of a MICRO SD and having the board designed such that the card can be fitted without being left hanging out of the case as is currently with the SD card.
There are already adapters for the Pi that allow you to do this. I have a few in use on my Pi's.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed May 22, 2013 3:42 pm

I have just bought a Model B and the first thing I noticed was the GPIO connectors P1 and P5 make up 34 pins.
Now, since the Floppy Drive is no longer with us, there must be thousands upon thousands of ready-made 34 pin IDC cable assemblies that are being dumped in the trash. Many of them have more than two connectors (the floppy end with the 'twist' can be chopped off) making a zero cost cable.
It is suggested that connector P1 should therefore be changed to a 34 way connector to enable this wasted resource to be used.
The composite video connector can be removed to make space. Why do you need two video connectors? I'm sure you can get an adapter to turn HDMI into composite video (if you really want to...).

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed May 22, 2013 7:40 pm

Zagra147 wrote: The composite video connector can be removed to make space. Why do you need two video connectors? I'm sure you can get an adapter to turn HDMI into composite video (if you really want to...).
While I don't ever use the composite video connector, other people do.

So far as I know, it is there for two reasons. First, the SoC has composite video outputs so no additional chips are needed to make it available. Second, it is there for anyone who *doesn't* happen to have--or is unwilling to buy--a comparatively modern TV or monitor, specifically one with digital input.

As it happens, I do have some older monitors that only have analog inputs, but they are all VGA, and if I have to use them, I have purchased powered HDMI-to-VGA adapters. Said adapters cost roughly as much--or more--than a Pi itself. It is actually cheaper (by at least 50%, typically) for me to hit the local thrift shops and get a monitor with DVI-D input than it is to buy HDMI-to-VGA adapters.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed May 22, 2013 9:49 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote: Said adapters cost roughly as much--or more--than a Pi itself. It is actually cheaper (by at least 50%, typically) for me to hit the local thrift shops and get a monitor with DVI-D input than it is to buy HDMI-to-VGA adapters.
I must confess that I hadn't thought that the convertors would be that expensive. Oh, well, perhaps the composite video can be squeezed-up a bit to make room...

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Thu May 23, 2013 1:23 am

Zagra147 wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: Said adapters cost roughly as much--or more--than a Pi itself. It is actually cheaper (by at least 50%, typically) for me to hit the local thrift shops and get a monitor with DVI-D input than it is to buy HDMI-to-VGA adapters.
I must confess that I hadn't thought that the convertors would be that expensive. Oh, well, perhaps the composite video can be squeezed-up a bit to make room...
There are posts going back to early last year (or before) referring to converters as "expensive". That judgment is, of course, relative.to both ones own feelings of what is "expensive" and the price of the Pi itself.

I have three of the same model from two different orders. The first one was $40. The other two were on sale for $30 each (which is why I snapped them up). That supplier appears not to carry them any more. $50 is a pretty common price for proper converters.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sat May 25, 2013 8:38 pm

mahjongg wrote:
The12stringwizard wrote:AND PLEASE ROUND THE EDGES OF THE BOARD! WHEN PEOPLE BUY RPI's THEY WANT TO FIT IT IN AN ALTOIDS TIN!
IMHO only some strangely obsessed Americans have some bizarre reason to fit small electronic devices in Altoids cans, not even most Brits have such an abberation, even though Altoids is a British brand! :shock:
Why must it be Altoids? why not any other can which has fitted any other food product :?: :?: :?: :?: Yeah, I know they are often used as cheap containers for fish-hooks and paperclips and other such stuff, but still I don't get why it must be an Altoids can? Must be some culturally induced meme invented by Altoids to sell more of their mints. :lol:

There are plenty of alternatives! http://www.sweet-ideas.co.uk/promotiona ... hinged-box
I didn't know it a British brand, always assumed it was American. Those tins are a bit pricey, I bought one and threw the mints away as I'm on a veggie for a year challenge. Anyway, I would like to see rounded corners, probably won't happen but it would look cool in a sweet tin.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sat May 25, 2013 10:09 pm

I believe Eben said recently that there'll be a couple of tweaks for the educational release model B version 2.xx - one of which would be a change of diode on the HDMI port so people could use the cheap unpowered VGA converters. They're getting down close to only 5 pounds on ebay nowadays... :)
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:00 am

http://www.amazon.com/LM2596-Converter- ... B008BHAOQO for $4.48 seems to power Pi's all right from a wide variety of sources...

I just want my next Pi (well, not the one I ordered three days ago, of course!) to have a "safe power down" button. It can be one of those teeny tiny buttons you have to click with a pencil point or whatever.

A plug-in real-time clock that just works? I'd buy that right now... The other guys call it "plug and play". I don't know what Linuxites call it- if they need a name.

Well, while I'm dreaming, it may as *well* fit in an Altoids tin, lined with craft Foamie sheet for insulation and shock resistance... Why the fine people at Altoids have not come out with a Raspberry Pi-sized case, I'll never know...

And if it only had connectors on two sides, I wouldn't cry *very* loudly. Only one USB port? In this world of tiny cheap hubs, what's the difference? it doesn't even need to be a standard full-sized USB, for a lot of purposes...

Improved diodes and sturdier "handling" capacitors? Fine too! Safely wax-pottable for underwater use? While I dream, dream *big*!

MicroSDHC cards instead of regular? Fine. Even better if it will take the new 64-gig ones- so many gadgets say that 32 is as far as they go. A second one for data, not booting and basics? Fine, fine- I can Pi with ease what I now have to look at on my 7" tablet! I wonder if anyone makes the ports in "toaster" configuration... seems like it would take less space, and anyone intending to change cards frequently can get a case with "Operation game" holes as needed...

But the main thing is, make Pi even more fun to deal with! Software and inexpensive processor chips are *never* going to make Pi act like the new top-of-the-line stuff. Linux will never be more than a distant second to Those Other Guys until the Linux people get over the bizarre notion that people like typing instead of clicking. So instead of concentrating on the idea that Pi Linuxes (linuxii?) need drastically improved chips to make them do "less user friendly" faster, let's concentrate on making the physical computer even better than it already is, fit into spaces it never could before, go into environments that would cook or drown the current Pi generation!
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:35 am

Pygar wrote:http://www.amazon.com/LM2596-Converter- ... B008BHAOQO for $4.48 seems to power Pi's all right from a wide variety of sources...
I presume you mean "powered by a Pi". Even so, it might vary by board revision a bit. The Rev. 1.2 (IIRC--the one with zero ohm resistors for the USB ports) didn't have the diode in question. Evarlier and later revisions do have the diode.

(Hmmm.... If we're not careful, some of us with collections fo Pis of different revisions are going to have an interesting time seeing what works on which board and what doesn't...unless we "retire" the older boards.)
I just want my next Pi (well, not the one I ordered three days ago, of course!) to have a "safe power down" button. It can be one of those teeny tiny buttons you have to click with a pencil point or whatever.
"Safe power down" would be "sudo halt" or equivalent. A button would give you a way to power it back up without popping the power connector--which would be real nice. FYI...the Cubieboard really does power down when you halt it and it has a button that will fire it back up. Dunno if the BCM2835 would support that functionality or not.
A plug-in real-time clock that just works? I'd buy that right now... The other guys call it "plug and play". I don't know what Linuxites call it- if they need a name.
I *think* all that would take would be including a driver in the standard kernel (or a loadable driver on detect). basically, the driver would have to be distributed.
Well, while I'm dreaming, it may as *well* fit in an Altoids tin, lined with craft Foamie sheet for insulation and shock resistance... Why the fine people at Altoids have not come out with a Raspberry Pi-sized case, I'll never know...
Oddly enough, the Beaglebone Black (aka BBB) *does* have rounded corners and it appears that it would fit in an Altoids tin. If I ever got a BBB it would be specifically to do just that. (The BBB doesn't have any "must have" features for my uses, and the graphics system is decidedly lacking for my uses, but a "computer in an Altoids tin" would be kind of cool. At least I already have a Dremel tool to pull it off...)
And if it only had connectors on two sides, I wouldn't cry *very* loudly. Only one USB port? In this world of tiny cheap hubs, what's the difference? it doesn't even need to be a standard full-sized USB, for a lot of purposes...
I tend to find that "cheap, tiny hubs" are cheap in more than one way, and most don't have a power supply (and may not even have a power connector). When they do have a power supply, it is far too weak for proper operation (a 1A supply is clearly inadequate for a 4-port hub; it's barely adequate for 2 ports).

I have, but haven't tested yet, a relatively inexpensive setup, though. Monoprice has a $3.50 4-port hub that is about a 3cm cube. MCM has a 2.5A 5v supply for about $10. A local "old time" (they still carry tubes..."valves" to our UK cousins) has a nice line of converter cables for various barrel plugs for $2.50 each (the MCM power supply is a 5.5mm, while the hub takes a 1.3mm...), and I have a suitable adapter. Next time I'm in there, I need to see if they have a 5.5mm barrel to micro-USB, They probably do..and if they don't they can order it for me. A Pi should not be able to drag down the voltage of a power supply intended to give 2.5A...
MicroSDHC cards instead of regular? Fine.
Doable now. Adafruit microSD adapter.
Even better if it will take the new 64-gig ones- so many gadgets say that 32 is as far as they go.
I think someone listed having successfully used a 128GB card on the Wiki. Been a while since I looked... And cards go to 256GB. Only problem is that it really feels wrong to use a $400 card in a $35 computer.

Still...if you really *need* a ton of storage, take a look at the Cubieboard. It has a SATA II connector and can power a 2.5" drive directly, or a 3.5" if you have an external power adapter. I have Cubies set up using reconditioned 60GB SSD drives that only cost $50 each (and I think a 64GB SD card would be a good bit more than that, and it'd be a lot slower).
A second one for data, not booting and basics?
That would definitely be a "nice to have". I rather doubt the BCM2835 has an interface to that, though.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:43 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:A button would give you a way to power it back up without popping the power connector--which would be real nice.
You mean like briefly connecting P1 pins 5 and 6 together will do? (Connect them for too long and you end up with the recovery kernel) :)

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:48 pm

Thanks for the info. Yes, I *did* mean a power-up, power down button.

The Amazon dingus I listed is for (for our purposes) powering Pi's from a variety of (at least one and a half volts higher) power sources. I doubt a 9-volt will run a Pi long, although these buck converters are very efficient. On the other hand, I suspect a 12-volt lantern battery (one of the big ones!) would run a Pi until you got tired of it... Multiphase bucks are better- I don't see that this one is multiphase- but at least several people in the comments have used this on a Pi with success.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:28 pm

The form factor should be somewhat like the PRE-ALPHA (usb-stick size)
except with micro usb instead of the ribbon cable and make pins/cinch connector for composite.
AND ADD A DAMN WIFI ADAPTOR!!!
Image

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:55 pm

The12stringwizard wrote:The form factor should be somewhat like the PRE-ALPHA (usb-stick size)
except with micro usb instead of the ribbon cable and make pins/cinch connector for composite.
AND ADD A DAMN WIFI ADAPTOR!!!
Image
I think there would be some problem in fitting on the full size HDMI, ethernet, the twin host USB, the GPIO, audio, and the general purpose CSI and DSI connectors on that board.

Would be nice to have one in that form factor, but it wouldn't be as good as the current device for most tasks.
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:03 pm

That size device would be nice if it could be brought in at a decent price, it probably can't. For the uses people want that size for you could do without the CSI and DSI connectors. The micro HDMI is not a licensed standard which is too bad. It would be best for that size.

Really the only way that board could be built in a decent price range would be to build it and a breakout board. For remote access you would really only need an Ethernet connector and USB, no video output.

Overall the pre alpha is now water under the bridge. It just could not be made cheap enough to meet the foundations price goal.

I wonder who actually has that one and does it still run with today's software?
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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:17 pm

Would it save much money to have a version without the GPIO and camera ports? I imagine there are quite a few people like me who are more of the software tinkerers (NAS, XMBC, RetroPie), and will never use them.

As much as it would be cool to have a pair of SATA ports or a pair of USB 3 ports, I realize that would probably jack the price up too much.

I'm fine with the current ports, if anything, maybe add 2 more USB ports, or even a third one, so you wouldn't need to use a hub if you needed to plug something in while you have a KB/M plugged in.

If it ever becomes cost effective to add a VGA port, I would rather see that most of all.

But all in all, I think I would mostly just like a faster CPU with possibly 1GB of RAM more than anything else.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:16 am

teeth_03 wrote:Would it save much money to have a version without the GPIO and camera ports? I imagine there are quite a few people like me who are more of the software tinkerers (NAS, XMBC, RetroPie), and will never use them.
That's my situation as well. I don't use the composite video, either.
As much as it would be cool to have a pair of SATA ports or a pair of USB 3 ports, I realize that would probably jack the price up too much.
I don't think the BCM2835 has a SATA interface, but more on that later.
I'm fine with the current ports, if anything, maybe add 2 more USB ports, or even a third one, so you wouldn't need to use a hub if you needed to plug something in while you have a KB/M plugged in.
Better--again, the BCM 2835 doesn't have them, but they'd be nice--would be separate USB and Ethernet ports direct to the SoC.
If it ever becomes cost effective to add a VGA port, I would rather see that most of all.
Unlikely at best, and less and less needed as time goes on. I find it 's actually cheaper to get monitors with DVI input ports than it is to buy HDMI-to-VGA converters. The monitors I can get for--at most--$20, while decent converters run at least $30, and often $50.
But all in all, I think I would mostly just like a faster CPU with possibly 1GB of RAM more than anything else.
This has been discussed at length...

Now if you look at what you've asked for, such a board exists. It costs almost 50% more that a Pi ($50), but it has 2 USB 2.0 ports plus an OTG USB port, 1 SATA II port, 1 GB RAM, and 1 GHz processor. Plus some other stuff. It's even an ARM71 version (though it runs Raspian just fine, but I doubt it gets the full board performance out of it and if I were somewhat more savvy about Debian Linux I could probably upgrade to an ARM7 version of Debian). The downside is that the GRU isn't nearly as good as the BCM2835. I consider it to be a good companion--as a server--for a group of Pis, especially when using the SATA connector to attach an SSD. It's the Cubieboard.

I have no idea what the long-term survival is for production and support, since it appears to be much more of a "shoestring" operation than the Foundation is. (That's (a) why I have a spare board, and (b) at such time--3? 5? years from now--when the RPF comes out with a matching, or better, board, I'll probably replace the Cubies with it.) Note that the Cubieboard is leveraging off the RPFs support community. Initial boot and OS install uses Berryboot and, if you want a Debian OS, it's Raspbian.

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Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:41 am

Well, I am aware of the cubieboard, support looks sketchy so I was never much interested.

But if the Foundation plans on being around for a while, eventually they will be able to put a faster CPU in for the same price as current models.

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