alik55
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Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 6:23 pm

Out of 200-250 RPI 4 B's I dealt with very recently, I had 2 with hardware issues out of the gate - badly soldered header and bent/unsoldered USB3 pin. And who knows how many had so far undetected issues. That is a nearly 1% defect rate. I would expect RPI factories to do at least some QA.
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Last edited by alik55 on Sat May 08, 2021 11:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Heater
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 6:39 pm

Such defects are amazingly rare. It is presumptuous of you to assume there is no QA in place. There most certainly is.

Every time such a post arrives here it prompts me to inspect my new Pi arrivals. They have always been perfect.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

alik55
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 6:46 pm

You are calling 2 out of 250 amazingly rare?

Heater
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 7:18 pm

alik55 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:46 pm
You are calling 2 out of 250 amazingly rare?
No. Why would you think so?

Amazingly rare things happen all the time. Like people winning the lottery.

You have a batch of 250 Pi. 2 are defective. That only means about 1% of your batch has failed. It does not mean the defect rate among all Pi produced is 1%.

I suspect that if the Pi defect rate were as high as 1% we would have heard all about it by now. That would be a lot of complaints.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

cruster
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 7:38 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:39 pm
Such defects are amazingly rare. It is presumptuous of you to assume there is no QA in place...
And you know that because... ?

Heater
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 7:43 pm

cruster wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 7:38 pm
Heater wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:39 pm
Such defects are amazingly rare. It is presumptuous of you to assume there is no QA in place...
And you know that because... ?
Osmosis.

You are right in that I don't know any actual figures or rate of returns or whatever.

As I said: "I suspect that if the Pi defect rate were as high as 1% we would have heard all about it by now. That would be a lot of complaints."

Surely those complaints would arise on this forum far more often than they do. I have not seen that.

Personally of the many Pi I have bought not one had been a dud.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

LTolledo
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 8:40 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 7:43 pm
....
Personally of the many Pi I have bought not one had been a dud.
nor do I....
...and probably most of the active forum members here as well...
otherwise.... the forum would have been flooded with complaints...

@OP....
the mods will most likely require you to send them the image of the QR code of those so-called "lousy board" of yours
so they can back track the supply chain and pinpoint the "lousy site" where those "lousy boards" originated...

those lousy site's ISO9000 certification may come under full review....

as with all "rarities".... those boards might fetch a very good price in the future.... ;)
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thagrol
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 8:56 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 7:43 pm
Personally of the many Pi I have bought not one had been a dud.
Second that.

I'd also like to suggest that the OP doesn't understand how commercial QA works. In general you do not check every single unit produced as that's prohibitive both in time and in cost. You inspect enough to be statistically certain you're meeting your criteria.

With electronics, you may have a basic automated check for functionality (that's what the test points are for) but that'll likely be done by machine and not accompanied by a visual inspection. And it's not possible to test every function that way.

Doesn't matter if you're producting cartons of yogurt or Raspberry Pi.
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alik55
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 9:00 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:39 pm
Personally of the many Pi I have bought not one had been a dud.
Which have been how many? If less than 125, then you should not even bother mentioning as it is an obvious consequence of the math involved.

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thagrol
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 9:03 pm

alik55 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:00 pm
Heater wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:39 pm
Personally of the many Pi I have bought not one had been a dud.
Which have been how many? If less than 125, then you should not even bother mentioning as it is an obvious consequence of the math involved.
Nope. None of us know the actual numbers. Your's may be typical but they may not. a 1% failure rate of shipped Pi would equate to several 100,000 units. That would have shown up by now.
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thagrol
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 9:19 pm

LTolledo wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 8:40 pm
those lousy site's ISO9000 certification may come under full review....
I'll let you into a(n open) secret ISO9000 and its UK predecessor BS5750 may not actually mean very much. In my somewaht outdated experience what it meant it practise was that you had a set of prorcedures and a documentation trail that said you followed them. Both designed and written by the organisation seeking certification.

Inspections were known about in advance so it was common to have foremen and managers run around backfilling paperwork a day or two before hand.

Now I'm not saying Sony and/or RPF/RPT are like this, nor am I saying every company is. I'm saying that it's easy for an unethical company to have certification and cheat it.
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pidd
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 9:41 pm

thagrol wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:19 pm

I'll let you into a(n open) secret ISO9000 and its UK predecessor BS5750 may not actually mean very much. In my somewaht outdated experience what it meant it practise was that you had a set of prorcedures and a documentation trail that said you followed them. Both designed and written by the organisation seeking certification.
Yes, I've had the nausea of achieving both BS5750 and ISO9000, physical quality checks went completely out the window it was purely about paper trails. Our quality department went from doing percentage checks on products to being paperwork-police.

If you followed your own procedures and did reviews you were bullet-proof, you never had to finalise many of your procedures because on-going review and improvement was classed as a good thing - as long as it had a specified review date and you had records of previous reviews you were covered, they couldn't fail you.

mwrich4
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 10:00 pm

IIRC, RPT claimed boards get a functionality check on a bed of nails. Again, that's a LOT of boards so maybe those are also spot checks.

Where I used to work, I started as QC where we checked every device. But this wasn't high volume.

I've also witnessed the construction of the 'Blazing Saddles town' when the inspector announced an impending visit. Sorta nauseating.

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MikeDB
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 10:06 pm

thagrol wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:19 pm
I'll let you into a(n open) secret ISO9000 and its UK predecessor BS5750 may not actually mean very much.
Very true. If you produce 100% failures, but have it well documented that you produce 100% failures consistently and always will do, that actually meets ISO900x

I have to say though that there does seem to have been a bit of a recent drop in quality of Pis. We've to rework a few joints on some Pi4s, and an early CM4 arrived totally dead but we use that as a soldering alignment jig for the Hirose sockets so it's not actually a loss to us.
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ejolson
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 10:11 pm

alik55 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:00 pm
Heater wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:39 pm
Personally of the many Pi I have bought not one had been a dud.
Which have been how many? If less than 125, then you should not even bother mentioning as it is an obvious consequence of the math involved.
I bought 12 and one of them had an LED which didn't work. That's a little over 8 percent defect rate. Because everything else worked I didn't return it. What do you think a reasonable defect rate would be?

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MikeDB
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 10:35 pm

ejolson wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 10:11 pm
What do you think a reasonable defect rate would be?
One metric is that if your ODR of any product is above 1% then Amazon suspend all products a vendor is selling on their platform. This includes product faults but also shipment errors, etc.

Conversely new cars have up to 14% defect rate for the worse offenders, but a few achieve 0% defects in the warranty period. But that is still a lot better than 40 years ago when almost all cars had faults on delivery or soon after.
Always interested in innovative audio startups needing help and investment. Look for me on ModWiggler or other sites that have PMs.

LTolledo
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 10:58 pm

@OP

failure to send the images of the two QR codes means there is no weight to your complaints
the "lousy boards" does not exist....
you're just "bashing"
this topic will get us no where....

your move....

oh you've posted one... that's good...
where's the other one?
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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Greg Erskine
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 11:12 pm

I recently purchased a RPi4B 8MB and it had one poor solder joint on one pin of the 40 pin header. I was very surprised as it was the first issue I have had with dozens of RPi's I have purchased and it was also the most expensive.

It would have passed an electrical test!

Lucky I can solder, so it wasn't returned.
* Raspberry Pi is a trademark of the Raspberry Pi Foundation

ejolson
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 11:16 pm

MikeDB wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 10:35 pm
ejolson wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 10:11 pm
What do you think a reasonable defect rate would be?
One metric is that if your ODR of any product is above 1% then Amazon suspend all products a vendor is selling on their platform. This includes product faults but also shipment errors, etc.

Conversely new cars have up to 14% defect rate for the worse offenders, but a few achieve 0% defects in the warranty period. But that is still a lot better than 40 years ago when almost all cars had faults on delivery or soon after.
There is a big difference between defect rate and return rate. While not as bad as the F35 joint strike fighter, my impression with automobiles has been that the defect rate has been going up with all the additional electronics included.

Is 1 percent an okay defect rate as long as the defects don't result in returns?

alik55
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 11:20 pm

By popular request, complete images, as large as this forum allows. What else is lousy, that the forum backend complains the file is too large, yet fails to say what the exact limits are being enforced. What a waste of time, resizing by trial and error.
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alik55
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sat May 08, 2021 11:34 pm

The demand for RPI's is very high at the moment. Many distributors are on backorder until late fall for large quantities and many limit order size to 5-10 units. So I can see how rushing production can lead to severe degradation in quality, but that cannot be an excuse.

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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sun May 09, 2021 1:25 am

ejolson wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:16 pm
... my impression with automobiles has been that the defect rate has been going up with all the additional electronics included.
2003, 2006, and 2007 Toyotas went way past warranty with 0 defects and are still road worthy. Not loaded with gizmos like today, but had digital engine management. Where do you go from zero except up? It's not just the added electronics...
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sun May 09, 2021 2:16 am

alik55 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:20 pm
By popular request, complete images, as large as this forum allows. What else is lousy, that the forum backend complains the file is too large, yet fails to say what the exact limits are being enforced. What a waste of time, resizing by trial and error.
It is 250KB per attachment, with maximally 3 attachments per posting.
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/2wheel_balancing_robot
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en#raspcatbot
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/Raspberry_v1_camera_global_external_shutter
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/raspiraw
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en/Raspberry_camera.html

Heater
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sun May 09, 2021 2:30 am

alik55 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:00 pm
Heater wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:39 pm
Personally of the many Pi I have bought not one had been a dud.
Which have been how many? If less than 125, then you should not even bother mentioning as it is an obvious consequence of the math involved.
What maths are you talking about?

You have a 2 failures in your batch of 250. That may well be approx 1% failure rate in your batch. It does not imply a failure rate of 1% over the tens of millions of Pi that have been made.

Statistically random failures like this tend to come in clusters. When a machine goes a bit sideways it may well result in a "bad batch" with a significantly lower quality than usual. Or perhaps a bad batch of components arrived for assembly from wherever. This gets picked up by random inspection or even from reports like yours. The fault gets tracked down, via serial numbers, etc, the process rectified and all is well again.

As for my 125 boards, or whatever, you are right, that does not mean much. But there are many like me. Only a few as unlucky as yourself.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

alik55
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Re: Really lousy RPI quality and no factory QA

Sun May 09, 2021 2:48 am

The text at the top of the images of the boards is different, so it is clearly different batches.

Those 250 units were sourced within the last 5 months and from more than one distributor too. What that datapoint shows is that in the sample size of 250 units sourced during the last 5 months the observed defect rate was close to 1%. It does not say anything about the millions produced in the years past.

The quality is observed to be lousy today and bringing the quality issue to light may help change the future, but will not change the past.

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