getitonbangagong
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:29 pm

Raspberry Pi? Sounded lovely…. Give me a slice?

Well, it sounded nice when I ordered it, but hey now it is beginning to taste a little bitter and twisted, (dons flame retardant suit)…

Pity any kids who come to this forum asking after or seeking help with what the pi might hold for them or once it arrives or when it does what they can do with it?

This forum is (sadly) going the way of all forums, full of ‘I know betters’, ‘I am here to troll you ‘, ‘I like to post a lot even though I have sweet FA to contribute’ and the never ending  ‘yada, yada, yadas’.

Those of you making interesting worthwhile posts, more power to your elbow, to the sad one-up-man-ship posters we don’t need you.

If RP is to really succeed then this forum really needs to be extremely positive! I have enjoyed the early days here immensely but already I can see the rot setting in as it has in so many on-line communities.

Well just remember this isn’t only for grizzled geekoids and the like waiting for a very exciting shiny thing (my heart aches to get hold of one ). It is also where new talent and users will gather, possibly their first exposure to an on-line community… Give them hope… not the same old gnarled crap in every other forum! Make this the place to come for a good time where you don’t get shat on for having an opinion that is different or even incorrect!

Dialling 11 on retardant…

G

drgeoff
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:40 pm

getitonbangagong said:


Well, it sounded nice when I ordered it...


??

Lynbarn
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:42 pm

getitonbangagong said:


Well just remember this isn’t only for grizzled geekoids and the like waiting for a very exciting shiny thing (my heart aches to get hold of one ).


You're right, it isn't, but most of those who post regularly would probably be happy to be identified as such. There are plenty of examples where new members to the forum have asked for – and been given – sound advice on a whole range of subjects, although there are limits to how many times "does it run windows" or "when is it on sale?" can be answered before nerves become a little shredded. In any community, there are those who are less then ideal neighbours, but having raised the issue, how would you go about resolving it?   (bearing in mind that the those in The Foundation are already working flat out (and they have day-jobs to attend to as well) and the admins are generous volunteers, but also with limited time to devote to their passion for the 'Pi.

bredman
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:49 pm

Does this forum need a reboot? Maybe it needs to be split into several different interest groups.

If the hardware does ever arrive (yes, I'm putting on my flameproof underwear) I predict that the forum will be flooded with basic questions. If my faith in humanity proves correct, we will all be so full of new-found Pi joy that we will be able to ride the wave and put up with the same questions again and again. I just hope that our patience last longer than the flood of questions.

So over the next few months, we will just have to patient and bite our tongues. Take example from the forum admins, who demonstrate remarkable politeness when locking threads.

But what happens when the education launch happens after the summer? Students and teachers will need simple consistent answers, not a religious rant about some obscure facet of a distribution. I think a serious restructuring will be necessary during the summer to keep the rancid geeks away from the innocent end-users.

getitonbangagong
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:55 pm

Applauds the positive and realistic response! I would add that my OP wasn't a swipe at the admins, indeed it has been a pleasure being here that I can see disappearing that made me post!

Lynbarn
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:09 pm

getitonbangagong said:


Applauds the positive and realistic response! I would add that my OP wasn't a swipe at the admins, indeed it has been a pleasure being here that I can see disappearing that made me post!


Agreed, the admins here are doing a very good job, and I didn't see your OP as a swipe at them, or The Foundation. To some extent, when it comes to intervening, the admins are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

To my mind, the main role of the admin is to allow as wide a range of views as possible, so long as they don't deteriorate into threats, personal attacks and endless regurgitating of the same old viewpoints. There are obvious signs that these things do happen, and trolls are on the loose from time to time, but the admins do stomp on them fairley effectively. Having said that, with the forum growing quickly as it is, more of the less desirable neighbours may be attracted to join, which is perhaps an inevitable price of success!

Other than Admins fully moderating every post to a strict set of guidelines as to what is acceptable and what is not, I can't really see a solution.

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scep
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:13 pm

The forum has changed since it started – both the demographics and the numbers. There is noticeably more negativity from people coming in from other sites who just don't get it or have decided that they'll have a dig  for some other reason.

Of course the problem is if you start wielding a real big stick like they do in many other places, you risk killing the thing that made it good in the first place. I've run and moderated several forums and I have to say that I still like the glasnost and tolerance and community here, despite the upsurge in haters and trolls etc.

The forum will continue to evolve as more and more people get their hands on a RasPi and the focus shifts from just 'techie' to include the original target audience. I suspect that it will be restructured/reinvented at some point but at the moment the Foundation have more imortant things to do. We should always keep in mind that it's a charity run by volunteers, who are currently working stupid hours to get the hardware out.

p.s. not the Foundation's opinions, just mine

getitonbangagong
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:33 pm

bredman said:


Does this forum need a reboot? Maybe it needs to be split into several different interest groups.

Perhaps this is the solution to the problem, although clearly it can't happen sensibly until after release.... Until then we are all in the same pressure cooker regardless of our technical persuasion.


getitonbangagong
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:35 pm

There you are... I managed to get a quote and my response in a quote!

Should I prepare for incineration?

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abishur
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:41 pm

The forums have had a subtle change, around the time of one of the big /. oddly enough... *ahem* and a lot of people have adopted a bit of a "if you can't understand X than no pi for you!" but things will come down once a couple shipments of pis go out and people stop nerdraging about getting one of the first batches or it will positively be the end of the world
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

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abishur
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:42 pm

getitonbangagong said:


There you are... I managed to get a quote and my response in a quote!

Should I prepare for incineration?



What on earth for?
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

getitonbangagong
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:10 pm

Are you suggesting you haven't seen oceans of unnecessary 'my opinion is cleverer than yours', 'I know best crap' rather than the beautiful and positively informative posts made by others....

I think the point here is that some intelligent folks never get heard because they are tuned out because of the way they insist on presenting.

Perhaps if they toned down the noise they might get a better response!

Lynbarn
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:15 pm

getitonbangagong said:


Are you suggesting you haven't seen oceans of unnecessary 'my opinion is cleverer than yours', 'I know best crap' rather than the beautiful and positively informative posts made by others....

I think the point here is that some intelligent folks never get heard because they are tuned out because of the way they insist on presenting.

Perhaps if they toned down the noise they might get a better response!



As I asked before: What would you do about it?

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johnbeetem
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Re: Sheesh!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:21 pm

getitonbangagong said:


Are you suggesting you haven't seen oceans of unnecessary 'my opinion is cleverer than yours', 'I know best crap' rather than the beautiful and positively informative posts made by others...


I can remember one user who was called out for (shall we say) "excessive hubris", but he toned down right away.  We do get ripples of incivility at times but the admins have IMO meted out justice appropriately.  I think the vast majority of posters here are eager to learn and eager to share what knowledge they have.  YMMV

getitonbangagong
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Re: Sheesh!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:30 am

Lynbarn said:


getitonbangagong said:


Are you suggesting you haven't seen oceans of unnecessary 'my opinion is cleverer than yours', 'I know best crap' rather than the beautiful and positively informative posts made by others....

I think the point here is that some intelligent folks never get heard because they are tuned out because of the way they insist on presenting.

Perhaps if they toned down the noise they might get a better response!


As I asked before: What would you do about it?


I  didn't profess to offer a solution, I was pointing out what I perceive as a problem (IMHO).

Although I think that my applause for bredman’s response (which you quoted) was a fair indication that I think he is on the right track for a solution.

getitonbangagong
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Re: Sheesh!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:34 am

BTW, I don't see any edit / delete options for posts? I assume I am just being thick, if anyone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it

Lynbarn
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Re: Sheesh!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:41 am

getitonbangagong said:


BTW, I don't see any edit / delete options for posts? I assume I am just being thick, if anyone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it


Admins can edit and delete, us mere mortals can only edit our own post until there is a further reply on the thread. there is an "Edit your Post" option in the bar above the message when it is allowed. HTH

bredman
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Re: Sheesh!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:50 am

I actually find that this forum is remarkably civilized.

In fact, I am surprised that it is so civil. I saw some bubbling under the surface of rivalry between distros, but this has never erupted into a public slanging match.

We have also had the occasional anti-Windows rant, but these have remained in control.

There are a couple of forum members with *strange* presentation styles, but luckily nobody has responded with personal attacks.

So, we have all done very well so far and everything is under control. But we have a new age coming soon.

Very soon, we will have absolute newcomers. Some may be in their early teens, some may be past retirement. What they will have in common is blind enthusiasm and complete lack of technical knowledge. This will result in wild posts which will not be able to express their desired outcome, their present situation, and the blocking issues.

I expect a lot of frustration and a major clash of personalities.

Andre_P
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Re: Sheesh!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:31 am

As to the people to come is it worth a new forum section called 'Help'. Not a 'support' from the Foundation but a 'hey to the community' about something.

That would ensure that the issue are in the 'right' place.

adlambert

Re: Sheesh!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:34 am

Hmmm, I feel the need to add that a full and complete discussion will have more than one point of view involved, sometimes some people won"t like a particular viewpoint but that doesn"t necessarily instantly make it irrelevant and invalid. People should be able to disagree in a civil way. A naive 100% positivity is just a fan club and not the most constructive. There is room for a bit of devils advocacy without trolling. The definition of a troll is not "an opinion I don"t like".

Sorry to raise a dissenting voice, it is meant only constructively.

jamesh
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Re: Sheesh!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:16 am

I'm not quite sure what to say here. I think the tone in conversation, and also the variety of technical level has been pretty good throughout. Yes, there is tech conversation, but also begineers questions. All which are dealt with generally quite politely.

Remember this is an open forum – people can ask whatever level of technical question they like – we cannot dump posts because they are too technical, so there is bound to be stuff on here that beginners won''t understand. And there is bound to be stuff on there that many think is a 'dumb' question. Whichever, politeness rules, and we will come down like a ton of bricks on bad manners, insults etc. But not valid questions, whatever the level.
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Burngate
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Re: Sheesh!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:48 am

I've been here a long time ... seems like forever ... but one thing I've noticed.

There are some kids on here already, youngest I've seen was 13. There are some elderly folks as well, and there are some who are neither.

And some who come look like lost souls hoping for salvation, and others who know what they're doing (or think they do).

And some of those lost souls, within a few posts, turn out to know far more than they're letting on.

So maybe we, the frequent flyers, should take it on ourselves to welcome all the newbies, and answer their inane questions with patience even though we've answered them so many times before, because before we know it they'll have become frequent flyers themselves and be helping the new newbies.

Much as the admins have been doing so far.

EDIT I wrote 'lost souls' and saw a fish swimming up the Thames.

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abishur
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Re: Sheesh!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:26 pm

getitonbangagong said:


Are you suggesting you haven't seen oceans of unnecessary 'my opinion is cleverer than yours', 'I know best crap' rather than the beautiful and positively informative posts made by others....

I think the point here is that some intelligent folks never get heard because they are tuned out because of the way they insist on presenting.

Perhaps if they toned down the noise they might get a better response!



Hmm... I'm still not sure why you expected to get flamed because you put your reply within the quote by accident.  And no, I tend to read all the posts so I've seen plenty of "I know better"   But I don't think it's quite as bad as your implying it is.  Most the time when people are saying "I know best" they do it respectful and it's usually just opposing ideas on an single issue which is fine.  There are certainly times when things get out of hand, but having been around since the birth of the forum I can say with much confidence that those people don't last long and the people who really persevere and stick around are generally a nice lot
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

spurious
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Re: Sheesh!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:36 pm

As with any community there will be people you get on with and people you won't.

I have asked "stupid" questions to those in the know, and got reasonable answers.

I have made daft statements (several I think).. and got shot down.

I have broad shoulders.

I hope I have contributed a little.

I do get a bit impatient of posters who are a little lazy and don't make any attempt to do a bit of reading first. And maybe I shouldn't, but "does it run windows" for the umpteenth time when it's been done to death does get tiresome. BTW.. the answer to that one is NO.. need multi core ARM and more memory and faster processor for those in doubt.

But even when I was shot down it was very civil  :)

IMHO. I think the community as a whole seems to work

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Jessie
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Re: Sheesh!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:26 pm

Troll or Troll bait which are you?  Neither are useful.

It is fine to disagree with the general population of these forums, but it has all been heard already so you arn't bringing anything new to the table, and it didn't do any good in the first place.  The project is what it is at this point and if you don't like it go somewhere else.

It is times like this where I like to quote an essay written about open source software written here: https://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/IsIsnt  While this project is not the same as handbreak many of the same pricipals apply here such as this list of what this project is not:



A way to get commercial-quality support at no charge


A free-for-all forum to ask for pie-in-the-sky features and expect them to be implemented as requested and with no delay


An invitation to harass and otherwise frustrate a small and dedicated  staff because they didn't do what you wanted.


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