TheManWhoWas
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:34 am

Thanks for the clarification of where things are at Liz. I now better understand the situation. I was just getting concerned that there were seemingly two levels of interest for the Pi - experienced people who want a cheap as chips Linux box, and very inexperienced people who are expecting the Pi to somehow open the door to them for learning to code.

And it seemed that the latter group were in for a big disappointment unless there was special software / teaching aids being created in parallel that gave them a super friendly (and interesting) environment to get started in. But if these are being developed by 3rd parties then great and I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

adlambert

Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:42 am

I note denial and the anecdotes that I expected.

The 80s were different, the home computers that appeared were novel and people saw them as a kind of unreachable technology suddenly within reach and this caught people's imagination and curiosity. There was no other easily accessible way to computing and they were so straightforward and easy to achieve something on. The booted straight to a BASIC interpreter and a Hello World was a single line of code, a loop could be done on one or two lines and it wasn't a huge step to accepting user input and performing a conditional branch based on that input.

BASIC with line numbers on those 80s shells isn't great for doing anything elaborate and it is never going to be chosen for any serious projects, but it is absolutely brilliant for for quickly doing simple things. It's name begins with B for a reason.

And in those days, when people wanted to go a step further, then they could hand assemble, use a BASIC loop to POKE hex codes into RAM and another BASIC keyword to start machine execution at the first RAM address. All on 8 bit CPU, in a flat memory space with a basic graphics memory area that could be directly addressed. It was SO easy, it was kids stuff. And one of those kids could buy a magazine with the Assembled hex codes listed in an article with a description and explanation of how it was put together, and by following the instructions they could obtain some pretty leading edge (for the era) games. They could then DUMP that game onto an Audio cassette and keep it, share it. Those 80s computers are the reason I have been paid for 30 straight years by this industry.

In 2012 kids will pay more than the cost of a Raspberry Pi for a Call of Duty DVD and be playing it within 1 minute whilst talking to their friends where-ever they are. They have vibrating controllers with motion sensors and gyros, not to mention that thing on the XBOX that is a camera (forgot its name). They might well be sitting on a game seat with vibrating effects and a big bass woofer it in. It will be hard to satisfy those kids with a bouncing ball animation, or creating a Frogger clone (both of which were considered amazing in the 80s) if it takes too long to achieve or there are barriers in the way. And an example of a  barrier is an attempt to install something ending up in linux complaining about dependencies, and any effort put into googling a solution just returns a load of command-line unfriendliness.

I'm all for this idea, and the use of is the obvious choice. Where I think there is a problem is with the whole culture of Rohan trousers and Tux-T-shirt wearing brigade and their delusions about the appeal in 2012 of what is a pretty esoteric field. Jeff Albertson is just not cool.

Pirx-Danford
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:04 am

adlambert said:


It's very normal for the linux community to be in denial about the inscrutability of linux OS. To suggest that it is not totally user friendly will usually draw anecdotes about how they installed in on this relative or that friends PC and they never looked back etc. But the real truth is that straight up linux requires some familiarity with geekdom and that is going to put off a lot of the XBOX generation before they even get started. If this idea is going to hook a lot of new programmers, then it will need to deliver Hello World and beyond right on to the doorsteps of its intended targets. SUDO, tarballs and source code compiling is not going to cut it in the same way that the early ZXes did. Not when there are other paths of less resistance to a goal, and home computers are not a novelty any more. Raspberry Pi board is only one piece of the jigsaw.


Its very normal for the windows community to be in denial about the unhandiness of windows OS. To suggest that it is not totally user friendly will usually draw anecdotes about how they installed in on this relative or that friends PC and they never looked back etc. But the real truth is that straight up windows requires a lot geekdom, because you have to deal with antivirus tools, firewall, why that browser is more secure than that one, program dependencies, mysteriously crashing systems and so forth.

In the meantime The Mac OS Appstore and the Ubuntu Appstore make using a computer as easy as can be… the only thing Windows has going for it is that its preinstalled, but sorry to reign in your parade, Windows lost the #1 easiness spot since a while already.

On another note nobody hinders MS to create and deliver a teaching system working on the RasPi, but sadly they use closed source so they have to do all the work themselves... in the meantime the community of people really working on a solution will have to make do with linux. How sad

adlambert

Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:11 am

Pirx Danford said:



In the meantime The Mac OS Appstore and the Ubuntu Appstore make using a computer as easy as can be... the only thing Windows has going for it is that its preinstalled, but sorry to reign in your parade, Windows lost the #1 easiness spot since a while already.



If we are in the business of raining on parades, I wasn't making any case for Windows, or suggesting that Windows is any better. Who mentioned Windows?

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:12 am

I think it fair to say that if you go on a gamers forum it is just as geeky. Getting those cutting edge games to work often requires quite a lot of effort. There are discussions about overclocking processors, installing sophisticated cooling systems, upgrading video cards, etc, etc, and that is just the hardware. Hints and tips about tweaking software, installing new drivers and suchlike are also widespread.

adlambert

Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:15 am

Grumpyoldgit said:


I think it fair to say that if you go on a gamers forum it is just as geeky. Getting those cutting edge games to work often requires quite a lot of effort. There are discussions about overclocking processors, installing sophisticated cooling systems, upgrading video cards, etc, etc, and that is just the hardware. Hints and tips about tweaking software, installing new drivers and suchlike are also widespread.



The hardcore gamers are akin to the car modders, who buy after market tuning kits for engines and uprate suspension, tyres and wheels etc. The vast majority of drivers use cars without feeling the need to do that. Just as the vast majority of Call of Duty players have a standard XBOX 360, and despite the 18+ rating on the game, they are schoolkids.

Pirx-Danford
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:20 am

adlambert said:


If we are in the business of raining on parades, I wasn't making any case for Windows, or suggesting that Windows is any better. Who mentioned Windows?


Oops I went back and reread your posting and it does not mention windows indeed.

But now I am confused - what alternative to linux is there that could be used?

Do you suggest a completely new OS should be created from scratch?

adlambert

Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:28 am

Pirx Danford said:


Oops I went back and reread your posting and it does not mention windows indeed.

But now I am confused – what alternative to linux is there that could be used?

Do you suggest a completely new OS should be created from scratch?


No, linux is fine. It's the culture that surrounds it that is holding it back.

It's time to kill Tux and de-geek the whole thing. There is too much of a Jeff Albertson stigma attached to it, and a serious problem with denial – evidently.

I am inferring from some of Liz's writings though, that the improvment I think we need may well be inherent in the way that the educational approach to the project is going. I hope so.

mole125
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:34 am

adlambert said:


It"s time to kill Tux and de-geek the whole thing. There is too much of a Jeff Albertson stigma attached to it, and a serious problem with denial – evidently.


And there was I thinking that Tux being a nice and cute mascot was one of the big things that made linux less scary! Which logo gives a better warm fuzzy feeling on system startup - a nice cute penguin or a disintegrating window?

Alchemy
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:37 am

Loving the platform wars stuff. Long may people care about stuff.

I agree the issue is what else could kids be doing. In the 80's it was pretty boring as a kid. Flashing colours on a TV screen were actually impressive better than Dukes of Hazard. I doubt programming will ever be cool. But being smart has never been cool. I just believe if you give people the chance to be clever they don't go back to being dumb.

Pirx-Danford
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:43 am

adlambert said:


Pirx Danford said:


Oops I went back and reread your posting and it does not mention windows indeed.

But now I am confused - what alternative to linux is there that could be used?

Do you suggest a completely new OS should be created from scratch?


No, linux is fine. It's the culture that surrounds it that is holding it back.

It's time to kill Tux and de-geek the whole thing. There is too much of a Jeff Albertson stigma attached to it, and a serious problem with denial - evidently.


Nah its just the old routine that kicked in, first it was CPC vs. C64=, then Amiga vs. Atari, then Windows vs. Geoworks, then Windows vs. Linux and I did not even participate in the battles of emacs vs vi... and I am tired of the windows people trying to tell me why linux is not user friendly.

Well lets get back to the real topic.

One thing I could very well imagine in a RaspiOS is an experience level system.

Its something I saw in Geoworks I believe, you started as beginner with only a few options available in the menus, you could select a higher experience level (there were beginner, advanced and expert afair) and then you had more options available.

So maybe you start with just a cursor in a terminal and then by using the system you would receive suggestions like "would you want to use two terminals at the same time?"
If you say yes you would receive a short introduction to how windows work.

This could be carried on until you are introduced to all the modern features of a desktop system, but you would only be confronted with them when you are comfortable with extending your knowledge and capabilities.

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ArborealSeer
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:46 am

prodata said:


even if the educational take-up is less than perfect.



But would RPi even still exist if its not a success from the foundations point of view?

The foundation might learn something from limited success and change tack to achieve its wider goal.

Sections of the resources would still be usable on a PC in a VM, or properly configured live or dual-boot.. mostly the people using it for electronics projects would lose out.

A competitor that can provide curriculum programming to schools without the school having to spend money, and allowing them to leverage their existing PCs, and the home PCs/laptops of kids could trounce RPi.

Kids email their homework to teachers these days, and a lot schools are tied into county level managed environments that run on exchange and have all kinds of resources only accessible via their NT domain logins. Does RPi fit into that? Sure it can email, but can the teacher check the homework, at home on a school issue managed laptop?

We had such a small amount of exposure to BBC Basic at school I don't even count it.

I learned to code in a DOS based Pascal (Turbo Pascal), and a DOS based C/C++ environment (PWB) and the progressed to Windows based C++ (VC 1.52) – all in the english education system in the early 90s, and this was all before the home proliferation of the the internet (and way before the the late 90s where these pesky kids ruinted it!)The only language I learned outside that environment was COBOL on Xenix.. blah!

Or RPi will be the time-travelling, silver bullet solution that takes kids brains back to the halycon days of yore where all you needed was the user manual, a TV and a print out from a mate..
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:28 pm

adlambert said:


It"s time to kill Tux and de-geek the whole thing. There is too much of a Jeff Albertson stigma attached to it, and a serious problem with denial – evidently.


The problem is that we can't do that. We've tried until we are blue in the face, a couple of us tried in this very thread, and we got nowhere. We've got beards and we wear sandals with socks, so whatever we say is all geek before we even walk into a room.

We can make Linux easy to use. We've done it. We can write all the Linux For Dummies books in the world. We've done that too. We've even got videos. But it still isn't enough is it, because you don't believe it. So you spend half a day trying out Linux and can't understand it, or you pick the one in a hundred apps that are actually hard to install, or you visit the website and pick up the source when you could install from the app store. And that's it; Linux is a complex pig, which just confirms what you thought from the start, and you go back to Microsoft or Apple.

But when Microsoft brings out Windows 8, or Apple brings out Drizzle Puma, you will moan about it for a month or two before you learn how it works, and then it's all great again.

So it is not our problem. We've solved our bit. The only way Linux is going to get de-geeked is for people who are not geeks to use it for long enough to get to like it. Maybe the RaspPi will help, because unlike the eeePC which came before, it is impossible for the manufacturer to get beaten with bits of wood with nails in until they switch to Windows.

I can ask you to try it, I can tell you that you will like it and understand it and come to love it. But you don't trust me enough to try, because I'm a geek. The trouble is, of course, if you do try it for a month or two and come to love it, then nobody will believe you either.

adlambert

Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:29 pm

Pirx Danford said:





Nah its just the old routine that kicked in, first it was CPC vs. C64=, then Amiga vs. Atari, then Windows vs. Geoworks, then Windows vs. Linux and I did not even participate in the battles of emacs vs vi... and I am tired of the windows people trying to tell me why linux is not user friendly.


I'm trying to tell people why linux comes across as not user friendly, and I'm a linux person. I'll say it again, I'm a linux person, not a windows person. I'm just very aware of the way a persons eyes will glaze over when the word "linux" is mentioned. All those that keep insisting that everything is OK and are attempting to avoid any attempt to address linux usability problems by shifting the discussion over to the drawbacks of Windows are really not helping the situation.

"What usability problems.?..I installed [insert any distro here] for my 9 year old niece..... blah blah blah and now she writes flight control code for NASA launch vehicles using ADA".

Yeah, whatever you say.

I like your idea of staged complexity level modes, like a swimming pool with shallow end for learners, a deep end, and a high dive.

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ArborealSeer
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:08 pm

I've never seen it stated that RPi's goal is to promote linux by stealth.

For what the foundation is doing - it seems like the end users might not be doing more than writing python code, with the A model, they won't even be online unless they add a usb network card (wired or not) of their own. If kids can't post to their facebook "lolz posting from a raspberry" what interest will it hold?

But if a kid learns some python, puts it to use on Windows or a Mac.. and ends up down a career path writing code... isnt that job done?

For the hobbyist market.. sure RPi will introduce some people to linux, who might install it on other hardware, or in turn have pockets full of RPis doing various things from learning to code, or having them attached to weather balloons, the family tortoise or their souped up scooby. Ultimately though, outside things like XBMC and MAME, whats to keep 'normal' people on the platform.

I really think in some cases too many dreams and aspirations have been projected onto the poor humble RPi
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:25 pm

adlambert said:


Pirx Danford said:





Nah its just the old routine that kicked in, first it was CPC vs. C64=, then Amiga vs. Atari, then Windows vs. Geoworks, then Windows vs. Linux and I did not even participate in the battles of emacs vs vi... and I am tired of the windows people trying to tell me why linux is not user friendly.


I'm trying to tell people why linux comes across as not user friendly, and I'm a linux person. I'll say it again, I'm a linux person, not a windows person. I'm just very aware of the way a persons eyes will glaze over when the word "linux" is mentioned. All those that keep insisting that everything is OK and are attempting to avoid any attempt to address linux usability problems by shifting the discussion over to the drawbacks of Windows are really not helping the situation.

"What usability problems.?..I installed [insert any distro here] for my 9 year old niece..... blah blah blah and now she writes flight control code for NASA launch vehicles using ADA".

Yeah, whatever you say.

I like your idea of staged complexity level modes, like a swimming pool with shallow end for learners, a deep end, and a high dive.


My on'y comment would be...my >70 year father uses Ubuntu. Mostly with no problems at all, although he recently ungraded Thunderbird and it stopped working. Must tell him to stop doing that sort of thing.

He has no idea the terminal stuff even exists. For him, and many others, its no more or less difficult to learn than Windows.
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hayesey
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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:27 pm

rurwin said:


We can make Linux easy to use. We"ve done it.


I agree, in fact I agree with pretty much everything you said in that post.  Modern Linuxes such as Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora are very good desktop OSs and are easy to use (they've always been good server OSs).  It wasn't always the case, I remember playing with XFree86 modelines around 1998/1999 just to get a usable image to display on a monitor, things have moved on somewhat since then.

It's not that Linux is hard it's simply that it's not 100% the same as MS Windows and as Ruwin says, most people just aren't willing to give it a chance.  Most people don't care less and/or don't understand about what OS is on their computer as long as they can get to Word, some email program or other and Internet Explorer (or "the Internet" as such people tend to refer to IE as).  But I don't see it being all that important in education that the Pi uses Linux, I doubt they'll be teaching Linux sysadmin classes in schools.  The Linux OS is just a means to an end – it's got to run some OS.

Hopefully the Pi will change some of this and get people to actually take interest in how the PC they are using works and what else it can do other than a tool for watching 30 second videos of cats playing pianos.

I grew up with BBC Micros at primary school although pretty much all they got used for was games since I don't think the teachers really had a clue what else to do with it.  But it inspired me to do something other than play games on the computer I had at home.  Initially and very briefly a Commodore 16 but mainly ZX Spectrums.  Same old story, started by copying code from magazines and books.

I'd like to see a situation where the Pi is used in a similar fashion.  It's very early days.  A stripped down OS which boots into some kind of simple Python IDE would be fairly analogous to how things were in the 80s.  The community will provide these things along with some kind of magazine (online or otherwise, certainly online to begin with) which can contain code to copy out.

I don't understand the complaints that there isn't enough learning material around, there's absolutely tons of websites with Python guides, reference material and tutorials on.  In fact if there is any problem it's that there's so much it's hard to know where to start.  There's far more material than there ever was when I was messing with Sinclair BASIC.

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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:28 pm

I think that there is too much focus on Linux (don't shout, I am a hardcore Debian hacker).

If a kid wants to learn Python programming, all he will see is a pre-built appliance that provides only a Python environment. He will not see that he actually has a Linux machine unless he goes exploring.

I regularly build locked-down appliances for elderly people. All they want is an internet browser, so that is all that I give them. They never see that I am actually giving them a Linux computer, and they are happier not knowing. But my problem is that I must manually configure a locked-down Linux environment for each user because they will each have different hardware.

The RPi will make it much easier to provide a locked-down environment because of scale. If all the hardware is exactly the same, we can provide an SD card which is guaranteed to work first time, without asking the user any questions. The user will be able to plug in an SD card, turn on the power, and be straight into the locked-down environment that they expect.

This is exactly the same paradigm as games machines. Take a PlayStation as an example: The user turns on the power, inserts a disc, and starts playing. The user does not care that the PS can actually be used as a full Linux computer. (bad example, I know that Sony has disabled Linux on the PS now).

So, don't worry. Locked-down environments will be available for absolute beginners. That is the work that this community is doing now.

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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:31 pm

ArborealSeer said:


I've never seen it stated that RPi's goal is to promote linux by stealth.


Apparently a cheap TV device to code Python was the intention. The Pi in the name is short for Python.

I think simple text Python programs won't capture the imagination for long. And Qt5 looks like an environment. Its like riding a bike and then changing to  a car. I can imagine it feeling like a big jump to learners.

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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:45 pm


Hopefully the Pi will change some of this and get people to actually take interest in how the PC they are using works and what else it can do other than a tool for watching 30 second videos of cats playing pianos.



That will do me. Even if only a 1 or 2% of the kids who get one take it further then you could say the Foundation has achieved its goals.

Lets face it, computing has changed so much compared to where we were 30 years ago, the only thing I'd suggest would be to try and instil an appreciation of how much things have improved. I'm tempted to get hold of a PDP-8 or PDP-11 and a card reader and punch so the next time someone at work (I'm a software engineer) complains about their pretty IDE or the fact that a build took 10 minutes to complete, I can settle them down in front of it and demonstrate how much things have improved, see how long it takes to produce a simple Hello World program.

adlambert

Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:58 pm

adlambert said:


Pirx Danford said:


Oops I went back and reread your posting and it does not mention windows indeed.

But now I am confused – what alternative to linux is there that could be used?

Do you suggest a completely new OS should be created from scratch?


No, linux is fine. It"s the culture that surrounds it that is holding it back.

It"s time to kill Tux and de-geek the whole thing. There is too much of a Jeff Albertson stigma attached to it, and a serious problem with denial – evidently.

I am inferring from some of Liz's writings though, that the improvment I think we need may well be inherent in the way that the educational approach to the project is going. I hope so.



Just thinking a bit more about this. I think what I am getting at without actually realising it, is that linux needs a rebranding if it is to fulfil its potential. Even calling it Debian or Ubuntu or Redhat is not really cloaking the stigma. It needs a bigger break than that.

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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:59 pm

i-Pi?

adlambert

Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:03 pm

brian_reiter said:


Lets face it, computing has changed so much compared to where we were 30 years ago, the only thing I"d suggest would be to try and instil an appreciation of how much things have improved. I"m tempted to get hold of a PDP-8 or PDP-11 and a card reader and punch so the next time someone at work (I"m a software engineer) complains about their pretty IDE or the fact that a build took 10 minutes to complete, I can settle them down in front of it and demonstrate how much things have improved, see how long it takes to produce a simple Hello World program.


Hello world 30 years ago would go like this:

Switch on.

>10 PRINT "Hello World"

> RUN [Enter]

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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:11 pm

*chuckle*

Depends where you were I suppose.

I missed punched cards at uni by a year or two, but still had to cope with coding sheets for a few months, you wrote the code on a form and submitted it to the computer department who would then type it in, the sheets also included compilation instructions. If you were really lucky you might get several lines of compilation errors returned to you.

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Re: Isn't this all too complicated?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:17 pm

adlambert said: 

Just thinking a bit more about this. I think what I am getting at without actually realising it, is that linux needs a rebranding if it is to fulfil its potential. Even calling it Debian or Ubuntu or Redhat is not really cloaking the stigma. It needs a bigger break than that.

Linux will never "catch up" with Windows, because in order to do so, it would have to *become* Windows.   Windows is what it is because of what it is - one of which is that it is backed by a trillion dollar company (OK, I exagerate slightly).  What we like about Linux is that it isn't backed by a whole corporate behemoth.  But, the general public sees that (being backed by a corporate behemoth) as a feature, not a bug.

Or, as I often put it, if I want Windows, I know where to find it (and I can afford it and I have hardware capable of running it).  I don't *want* Linux to become Windows.  Another comment: It isn't that Windows is any easier to use than Linux is (really); it is that everyone is in the same boat.  I.e., whatever problems there are with Windows, everyone suffers them, so it doesn't seem so bad.  It is the psychology that is different.

 
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