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Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:01 am
by DougieLawson
swampdog wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:45 pm

From a logistics aspect it could be conceived to be useful to make a "2020-12-23" image containing everything since "2020-08-20" simply to reduce bandwidth and server load but alternatively if the servers can cope, why bother? The rpi is an educational tool so does it matter too much if the update can't be done there & then? I still have a pi running "wheezy".
Since the number one day for new users is 25th December (when, this year, Santa drops a Pi400 down the chimney) that it would be suicidal to release on 23rd. Without telling James and the other excellent folks how to do their job, the latest the RPF/RPT folks should be doing anything is the 30th Nov. Beyond that they should be in a change freeze except for mission critial security patches. That would give a new build enough of a chance for the irregular users to shake the bugs out so that by two weeks before Xmas the RPF/RPTL folks would be 100% confident it's not a poisonous download with a broken kernel burned into it.

There's been many times in the last 39 years between the United States Thanksgiving date and Valentine's day that I've had a chance to twiddle thumbs or simply grab a test system and play or experiment with something new (while steering clear of breaking anything on any production system).

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:39 am
by Milliways
swampdog wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:45 pm

From a logistics aspect it could be conceived to be useful to make a "2020-12-23" image containing everything since "2020-08-20" simply to reduce bandwidth and server load but alternatively if the servers can cope, why bother? The rpi is an educational tool so does it matter too much if the update can't be done there & then? I still have a pi running "wheezy".
WHY would ANYONE download a fresh image when they can update?

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:42 am
by swampdog
DougieLawson wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:01 am
swampdog wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:45 pm

From a logistics aspect it could be conceived to be useful to make a "2020-12-23" image containing everything since "2020-08-20" simply to reduce bandwidth and server load but alternatively if the servers can cope, why bother? The rpi is an educational tool so does it matter too much if the update can't be done there & then? I still have a pi running "wheezy".
Since the number one day for new users is 25th December (when, this year, Santa drops a Pi400 down the chimney) that it would be suicidal to release on 23rd. Without telling James and the other excellent folks how to do their job, the latest the RPF/RPT folks should be doing anything is the 30th Nov. Beyond that they should be in a change freeze except for mission critial security patches. That would give a new build enough of a chance for the irregular users to shake the bugs out so that by two weeks before Xmas the RPF/RPTL folks would be 100% confident it's not a poisonous download with a broken kernel burned into it.

There's been many times in the last 39 years between the United States Thanksgiving date and Valentine's day that I've had a chance to twiddle thumbs or simply grab a test system and play or experiment with something new (while steering clear of breaking anything on any production system).
I did pull that date out of a dark recess. :-)

Even a moment's reconsideration requires it to be done prior to all the pre-formatted sdcards shipping.

Subconsciously I must have known this because I used the phrase "it could be conceived to be useful" - one of my stock phrases in management meetings. My colleague was a master at those. If only I could have remember a fraction of his phrases.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:53 am
by swampdog
Milliways wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:39 am
swampdog wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:45 pm

From a logistics aspect it could be conceived to be useful to make a "2020-12-23" image containing everything since "2020-08-20" simply to reduce bandwidth and server load but alternatively if the servers can cope, why bother? The rpi is an educational tool so does it matter too much if the update can't be done there & then? I still have a pi running "wheezy".
WHY would ANYONE download a fresh image when they can update?
I'm paying my penance in reply to Dougie. That aside, if folk got their image "2020-12-23" there'd be less to download two days later. I just didn't think it out then compounded it by using "logistics" in the same sentence.
Can I get away with "blue sky thinking?" Na. I thought not.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:02 am
by picandies
milliways wrote:WHY would ANYONE download a fresh image when they can update?
um...apparently you didn't read the posts, this is about doing a band new first-time setup

swampdog wrote: if the servers can cope, why bother?
Because after unpacking, connecting & seeing the system all install & setup, thinking it is all ready to go, you suddenly need to wait 30-40 minutes for the updates! If the install had the updates (or most of them), it might require none or (more likely) next to none.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:15 am
by DarkElvenAngel
picandies wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:02 am
milliways wrote:WHY would ANYONE download a fresh image when they can update?
um...apparently you didn't read the posts, this is about doing a band new first-time setup

swampdog wrote: if the servers can cope, why bother?
Because after unpacking, connecting & seeing the system all install & setup, thinking it is all ready to go, you suddenly need to wait 30-40 minutes for the updates! If the install had the updates (or most of them), it might require none or (more likely) next to none.
This is like every device on the market when you open it turn it on it has to go though a setup process and install updates phones do this, game consoles, computers. Your argument make no sense this is the state of things now just be happy it's only 30-40 minutes. Game consoles required updates to there OS then you download a game to it or you have to install the game then that game needs updating before it can be played.

I just setup a new phone for my wife brand new one out of the box 45 minutes to copy the information from the old to the new and it failed so it took another 45 minutes then download updates all told two hours. This is how things are now.

A Pi is a walk in the park in comparison, I updated mine today 68 packages took 25 minutes, because the kernel was updating otherwise it's fast. And you can still use the pi while it's updating unlike other devices.

The bottom line is that this is how everything works these days is it frustrating and annoying sure but it is far better than how computers use to work with no updates or patches if something was broken it stayed that way.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:32 am
by picandies
DarkElevenAngel wrote: Your argument make no sense this is the state of things now just be happy it's only 30-40 minutes.
What part of increasing efficiency & saving time makes no sense? Again, this is an improvement, not fixing something that fails to work, or is a life & death matter. If the update hadn't dragged on & on & on, I prob wouldn't have even noticed.

Note your phone & game example differ, in that you have no choice, but to do update...since the old software is already installed. In the rpi, you are doing TWO downloads, thus maybe only half as efficient as activating your phone or game..
because the kernel was updating otherwise it's fast.

...well, this is a suggestion to avoid that slowness
And you can still use the pi while it's updating unlike other devices.
....I may be wrong, but I don't think you can use the rpi during this first-time install update (can you)?

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:42 am
by rpdom
picandies wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:32 am
....I may be wrong, but I don't think you can use the rpi during this first-time install update (can you)?
Yes, you can.

Anyway, I usually skip the initial update. Then, once the initial setup is complete I remove any packages I don't need before manually running an update and upgrade. That saves me from upgrading packages that I would then remove.

Of course I do use apt-cacher-ng as well as I have a few Pis that will be using the same updates and I often build up systems for testing multiple times.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:10 am
by DarkElvenAngel
picandies wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:32 am
DarkElevenAngel wrote: Your argument make no sense
What part of increasing efficiency & saving time makes no sense? Again, this is an improvement, not fixing something that fails to work, or is a life & death matter. If the update hadn't dragged on & on & on, I prob wouldn't have even noticed.
because the kernel was updating otherwise it's fast.

...well, this is a suggestion to avoid that slowness
And you can still use the pi while it's updating unlike other devices.
....I may be wrong, but I don't think you can use the rpi during this first-time install update (can you)?
You can choose not to update on Frist time setup and do it manually. This is exactly what I do because I like to remove things I don't need before updating. However as I pointed out this is indicative of all computing device sold today this isn't solely a raspberry Pi problem.

You can't just have the image build as it's downloading so it's pulled in every package being up to date. Then you'd complain the down is too slow, because now it's not just serving a file it's compiling it too and it can't cache it because some other package might be updated. No matter what you do the update needs to happen somewhere. Or you live on the edge and not update. Just leave it.

Things change to quickly in this day and age what you want is a relic of a bygone era.

I see what you think it should be, and I understand that it seems wasteful. However let's say Raspberry Pi didn't update it's Software and the images were up-to-date when downloaded and that image was good for a month then at the end of the month you have the updated image then you need to download that image to flash the one you have is out of date... You could use the old one and update it yourself or download the whole thing again. What makes more sense then? And remember that kits are sold with the images already burned so they need to update out of the box too how could they possibly be up to date right off?

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:19 am
by The Traveler
My alternative is that I don't use the the RPi desktop to begin with. Install the RPi OS lite version then a core like lxqt-core. A number of the main desktops have a stripped down minimal install. Why download and install apps you don't want or need? Linux is about the most user configurable OS out there so why not take advantage of it?

Or go full old school gonzo and run from the console if you like with no graphical desktop at all?

Cheers.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:23 am
by ejolson
swampdog wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:53 am
Milliways wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:39 am
swampdog wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:45 pm

From a logistics aspect it could be conceived to be useful to make a "2020-12-23" image containing everything since "2020-08-20" simply to reduce bandwidth and server load but alternatively if the servers can cope, why bother? The rpi is an educational tool so does it matter too much if the update can't be done there & then? I still have a pi running "wheezy".
WHY would ANYONE download a fresh image when they can update?
I'm paying my penance in reply to Dougie. That aside, if folk got their image "2020-12-23" there'd be less to download two days later. I just didn't think it out then compounded it by using "logistics" in the same sentence.
Can I get away with "blue sky thinking?" Na. I thought not.
Are there any critical security patches to the current image that need immediate patching? Would it be safe for thousands of people across the world to plug in their new Pi 400 computers on December 25 for the first time and skip the update until the new year? Or would that result in a computer virus super-spreader event worse than the human epidemic?

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:41 am
by picandies
Simply put, a newbie is going to assemble the system & do the download---they are not going to skip updates.
The official setup instructions even tell you to let it check for updates:
Click on Next, and let the wizard check for updates to Raspberry Pi OS and install them (this might take a little while).
darkelevenangel wrote:You can't just have the image build as it's downloading so it's pulled in every package being up to date.
No one ever suggested building anything during the download. You download an image that is ready to install & is recent.

. You could use the old one and update it yourself or download the whole thing again. What makes more sense then? And remember that kits are sold with the images already burned so they need to update out of the box too how could they possibly be up to date right off?

.....You sound confused. No one is suggesting that the capability to do an update whenever you want (sudo apt-get update...) be taken away. If you buy rpi with an image pre-installed that needs updated, then it gets updated...that is ONE download for the user. Not TWO large downloads as is being discussed.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:54 am
by DarkElvenAngel
The Traveler wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:19 am
My alternative is that I don't use the the RPi desktop to begin with. Install the RPi OS lite version then a core like lxqt-core. A number of the main desktops have a stripped down minimal install. Why download and install apps you don't want or need? Linux is about the most user configurable OS out there so why not take advantage of it?

Cheers.
And that works perfectly except I will bet that isn't good enough because then you have to wait for that to install, and it has to update still. It's also complicated.

There are other options for operation systems and if you look there are some that the images are maintained such that the images are updates. So when the system updates it downloads a whole image.

One thing we need to learn is we can't please everyone, and what works for one doesn't for the other. I think Raspberry Pi OS might not be the right fix for the OP they need something that is all done how they want it so it fast from download to install to ready to run. No waiting for long downloads or updates.
darkelevenangel wrote:
You can't just have the image build as it's downloading so it's pulled in every package being up to date.
No one ever suggested building anything during the download. You download an image that is ready to install & is recent.
You removed that from context that was an example of how the image would be updated before it was downloaded updated come at anytime it would be the only way to avoid an update after installing, and even then there's a chance it would not work.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:02 am
by bls
bls wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:56 pm

My experience has been exactly the opposite. I started running it earlier this year, and have NEVER had a problem with it. I just checked the stats page, and it claims to have served 2.2GB, while only downloading 370MB. These are not lifetime stats...when I have gone through periods of multiple SD Card rebuilds I've seen well over 6GB served with only a few hundred MB downloaded.
Since one thread of this discussion has gone into "this is how long it takes for me", thought I'd throw this in, and then a few thoughts on software distribution.

I downloaded the 08-20 IMG files when they were released. Today I took a nice virgin 08-20 Lite IMG file, installed my customizations, and upgraded RasPiOS (via my apt-ng-cacher). Here are some numbers:
  • 3 Minutes: Total time to customize AND apt upgrade the IMG file copy to the latest
  • 3 Minutes: Burn to a not-very-fast SD Card (this was a 3.8GB Lite image, so a Full would probably be 6-8 minutes)
  • 3 Minutes: Complete the system first boot
If I want to build a new system for another one of my Pi fleet, I only need to burn a new SD card.

Oh, and each system comes up with latest RasPiOS updates installed, passwords set, ssh and wpa configured, and hostname, keymap, locale, and timezone set.

Sadly, this doesn't help most new users, but a subset of those users, the Linux literate guys, don't really have an excuse for not being ready to go when their newly-ordered Pi shows up. They can at least have the IMG downloaded and know how to write the SD Card, and even as above if they want.

The current RasPiOS distribution and update model isn't optimal for everyone. If a new distribution/update model were to magically show up, chances are that it wouldnt' be optimal for everyone either. But the current model works. Compare it to Windows (updates when IT wants, not when you want), XBox (already mentioned), iOS, MacOS...they all have very opaque update procedures, and they all download a bunch of stuff, whether you want them to or not.

At least with RasPiOS you can download new versions when you want, download and install updates when you want...or not. Sure, it could be better by having more frequent OS releases, but there's a real cost to that. I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty unhappy if the RasPiOS team made the tradeoff to fix OP's concerns, and put resources towards that instead of new features (graphics, 64-bit support, everyone's wishlist items). I'd also be pretty darn unhappy if the RasPiOS quality degraded due to less testing.

The current update situation works. Not optimally for everyone, but it works.

Figure out how to make it work best for you.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:23 am
by picandies
The update took almost 40 minutes...that is simply a long time that is not necessary.

You seem to be offering up a good number of excuses:

Sadly, this doesn't help most new users
...That is what is being discussed, newbies who are installing their systems.

The current RasPiOS distribution and update model isn't optimal for everyone.]
...The experienced users can use alternative methods, make it seamless for the newbie.
they all download a bunch of stuff, whether you want them to or not.
..... The updating gives no control over what is downloaded. So including it in an all-in-one download gives the same effect.
Click on Next, and let the wizard check for updates to Raspberry Pi OS and install them (this might take a little while).

At least with RasPiOS you can download new versions when you want, download and install updates when you want
.... Nothing has been said about preventing any updating at any later time buy the user.

Sure, it could be better by having more frequent OS releases, but there's a real cost to that.I'd also be pretty darn unhappy if the RasPiOS quality degraded due to less testing.
....Why would there be some sort of high cost? Files need posted one way or another.
How would the quality be any lower than it is now after the updates are completed? The only difference is you wouldn't need to download twice,saving BW to allow everyone better access and not wasting 1/2 hour waiting for it.

The current update situation works. Not optimally for everyone, but it works.
... sounds like the 70's auto companies... it drives..it's sufficient

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:28 am
by DarkElvenAngel
Well if it was just a problem with Raspberry Pi then I can see why it would be a big deal but it isn't.

As has been said the kits all come with the images already downloaded. I'm sure that they are in first run state however so they will do all the first run things, that would include asking if you want to update.

One thing that should also be remembered is that this software is free you aren't being asked to pay for it you just buy the hardware the fact you don't even have to use this software you can use someone else's. So you're only investment is the cost of getting the hardware and the time to set it up.

If you think you can do it better than take on the mantle and start producing images. It all sounds easy enough but anyone with experience has already said it not as simple as you think it should be.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:41 am
by picandies
elevendarkAngel wrote:Well if it was just a problem with Raspberry Pi then I can see why it would be a big deal but it isn't..
As has been said the kits all come with the images already downloaded. I'm sure that they are in first run state however so they will do all the first run things, that would include asking if you want to update.
...this has already been explicitly mentioned...if you purchase an outdated image, then of course you will update. Many many buy rpi's and setup their own SD cards. No reason for them to have to download twice.

One thing that should also be remembered is that this software is free you aren't being asked to pay for it you just buy the hardware the fact you don't even have to use this software you can use someone else's.
...that has nothing to do with making it a seamless, top-notch experience. Rpi is much more than a vendor of circuit boards--they want the BEST experience for all those who are getting into the rpi world.

If you think you can do it better than take on the mantle and start producing images. It all sounds easy enough but anyone with experience has already said it not as simple as you think it should be
....Of course it might be oversimplified or nearly impossible, but that doesn't mean you just immediately fall over without trying. We don't achieve much or improve by starting out by giving up. The tech experts who put up the files for distribution now are plenty competent, I don't think they've tried & said it can't be done.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:56 am
by DarkElvenAngel
Despite what I am saying I agree that waiting for the updates sucks and it can take a long time. But you don't have to sit there and stare at the screen you can go do something else. And let's face it your computer is going to need to update again at some point like I told you I had about the same wait and my system has been running of months. Now you can say that is something I can plan for and yes you are right I can I did.

But your not wrong some new users are going to be frustrated that the new raspberries take just as long to get going as a desktop or laptop.

I don't have a feasible solution.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:08 am
by picandies
Well its's at least something to look into ...maybe it will be found nearly impossible, to do, or maybe something in between can be set up. It would be a real shame to not try anything and then find out later, oh it would have been very easy to do if we had just _______.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:39 am
by DarkElvenAngel
picandies wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:08 am
Well its's at least something to look into ...maybe it will be found nearly impossible, to do, or maybe something in between can be set up. It would be a real shame to not try anything and then find out later, oh it would have been very easy to do if we had just _______.
I'll tell you I have been using Linux a long time and the quality of Raspberry Pi OS is one of the best.

Okay logical it can be done but at a cost that cost could be monetary, or quality. Right now raspberry Pi OS is free and high quality. Let's make a fun comparison windows is expensive (no it isn't free) and the quality is lacking. I feel like if we had more releases at the same cost then the quality would drop.

It's happened before there was a Linux distributions it had 1 or 2 month releases the first images were okay but the later ones were buggy then they stopped and released more spaced out.

What takes the most time to update would be the kernel its updated and proven stable a new image download is generated. Now this upgrade has to be significantly that's a version change link going from 4.19 to 5.10 of the kernel otherwise the resources required would be wasted. One other thing to remember is we have multiple kernels because my SD card will work on any Pi unless I've done something that would change that. So the same is true for the image we download it has to work for every Pi so it has to be tested.

It's a big eco system to look after and they do a great job

Let's just be happy Raspberry Pi OS isn't a rolling release.

Re: OS download is rather irritating

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:06 am
by ash73
picandies wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:34 pm
from jamesh:
No way could it be done for the 1st of each month - takes longer than a month to test all the changes. Which is one reason why it's about every 6 months.
Not sure I'd completely buy that---so if a brand new user downloads the rpi OS & then the first thing the pi says-- it is going to turn around & download/install all the updates---you are saying they are then using untested software?

By this, you are saying we can't make a new download, because something is untested, but that is indeed what the user will have after the updates. No newbie is going to buy an rpi , set it up , and say NO, I don''t want today's software, I want last year's, last summer, whatever instead.

Whether tested or untested, that is what the newbie user is going to have anyway, since of course they will demand the updates when they unwrap their new goody. Just give all of that the first time in one download, perhaps call it the all-in-one beta.
This is a fair point, imo.

Does seem a bit strange to hold back on a new release with application updates, when we all have them anyhow.

Does the daily build include beta OS/kernel updates, or just the latest application updates?

One thing I don't like is the GUI doesn't show you what it's doing, I much prefer updating via terminal so I can see it making progress.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:20 am
by Heater
hippy wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:10 pm
Over it's lifetime RPF has had income of £145 million and had £30 million in end of year funds at the end of 2019, RPT has seen £118 million turnover, £77 million gross profit, £36 million profit, £29 million gift-aided to RPF - I don't see how that can in any way be described as "shoestring budget".
It is certainly a shoestring budget compared to other commonly known system providers like Microsoft, Apple, Google.
hippy wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:10 pm
Only as has been suggested; that more regularly updated released images would reduce the amount of update necessary after installing such an image.
Quite likely.

Is it necessary though? Don't forget a Pi with a fresh image installed works just fine. One can use it out of the box. Most people don't need the latest and greatest version of anything to get going. Installing updates hardly takes very long and can be done in the background without interrupting ones Pi adventures.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:33 am
by Heater
DougieLawson wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:15 pm
Unfortunately that is completely alien to "The DebIan Way". Their software management is to sit behind the leading edge and let the folks running Mint or Ubuntu test things which they might include in the next version some time within the next two years. That's completely at odds with agile software development and rapid deployment.
That flies in the face of fact. Debian came first, the others built off of Debian.
DougieLawson wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:15 pm
The DebIan Way is a constant source of frustration for folks on this forum who want python 3.latest not 3.7 because the latest python release has the latest foobar widget support they need for their project.
That sounds like a valid point. But I think it says more about Python than Debian.

If the operating system has dependencies on a programming language, like C, Python and many others, which Debian does, then it had better be shipped with tried and tested versions of those languages that are know to produce a working system.

A user may want a newer version of such a language. That should not be a problem, just install it and use that newer version, without any change to the version the operating system is depending on.

That is how things work if one uses language like Javascript (node.js) or Rust or many others.

The problem here is the confusion between the OS dependencies and whatever is going on in user space.

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:15 am
by incognitum
jamesh wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:06 pm
They are effectively beta's so should be treated as such - promoting too heavily means people who should NOT be using them end up using them, which can end up detrimental overall.
But if your "first use wizard" does the programmatic equivalent of "apt upgrade", doesn't the user end up with the same "beta" packages as the nightly image has that pi-gen spit out?

Re: OS download is rather useless

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:41 pm
by ejolson
incognitum wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:15 am
jamesh wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:06 pm
They are effectively beta's so should be treated as such - promoting too heavily means people who should NOT be using them end up using them, which can end up detrimental overall.
But if your "first use wizard" does the programmatic equivalent of "apt upgrade", doesn't the user end up with the same "beta" packages as the nightly image has that pi-gen spit out?
My understanding is that if the initial upgrade breaks the system the user can always reflash the card and decide to not perform the upgrade until the bugs in the repository have been sorted out. On the other hand, if the latest SD card image doesn't work, there is no recourse but to download another image and try that.

From the customer's point of view placing packages in the repository that break things may be worse than a bad SD card image. Bad upgrades break functioning systems. This could result in greater losses than delays in setting up a new system. Besides, if a new system doesn't work, it can always be returned as defective.