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PeterO
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:19 pm

What has changed in the last few weeks that makes this so important ?
Is there evidence that these claims of 30-40 minute waits are the result of anything other than slow internet access by one or two users ?
It's certainly not every one that has experienced these speeds (see my earlier post where times were much shorter).

Until there is evidence that this is a wide spread problem I think we should just leave the impatient people to go on and on about this non-issue in peace !

PeterO
Last edited by PeterO on Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Heater
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:20 pm

You worry too much.

I have been using Debian, from which Pi OS is derived, since last century, on many different machines, and I can't think of an occasion when "apt-get update" and "apt-get upgrade" has resulted in an unusable system. I have yet to see Raspbian and now Pi OS fail on update.
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ejolson
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:32 pm

picandies wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:57 pm
That hardly seems normal or acceptable. should the update say --WARNING your new system may fail to operate properly after this step? Presently, no such warning is provided.
I'm not sure the warning is needed. There is surely some fine print in the license put together by the legal department about no warranty of being fit for any purpose of any kind. In my opinion no person who has experience with computers expects them to operate properly and anyone with so little experience that their expectations are different wouldn't know if it's working properly or not.

Having said this, the package repository is certainly tested against the old image to make sure after upgrading that each type of Pi still boots.

At any rate, it's good to know that a new image will be available for download soon so Christmas downloads followed by the updates don't overwhelm the servers

picandies
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:00 pm

petero wrote: I think we should just leave the impatient people to go on and on about this non-issue in peace !
Why are you opposed to working on an improvement for the user experience? Do you wish everyone still used dial-up? People could go "on and on" about slow dial up rates. Agreeing to take some steps to address it is the first move to improvement & there are many possibilities.

ejolson
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:05 pm

PeterO wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:19 pm
What has changed in the last few weeks that makes this so important ?
The Pi 400 has changed things. The Pi is no longer a weird looking circuit board that nobody expects to get working right away, but a consumer good that will be unboxed and updated across the world all on the same day. Even though there are twelve days of Christmas, my belief is most of the updates will occur on the first.

Fortunately, the Pi 400 is not stocked on the shelves of Walmart, Wilko, IKEA or Tesco; otherwise, the number of Pi 400 computers being updated for the first time on Christmas might take down the entire Internet. As it is, I expect all those Zoom parties will do similar.

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PeterO
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:14 pm

picandies wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:00 pm
petero wrote: I think we should just leave the impatient people to go on and on about this non-issue in peace !
Why are you opposed to working on an improvement for the user experience?
Because all I'm seeing is concern trolling from a few impatient people on slow internet connections that think their experience is representative of everyone else. There really isn't an issue here.

Do you wish everyone still used dial-up? People could go "on and on" about slow dial up rates. Agreeing to take some steps to address it is the first move to improvement & there are many possibilities.
Again I ask where is the evidence that this is a problem for anyone other than a few impatient people on slow internet connections ?
PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

jamesh
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:16 pm

picandies wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:00 pm
petero wrote: I think we should just leave the impatient people to go on and on about this non-issue in peace !
Why are you opposed to working on an improvement for the user experience? Do you wish everyone still used dial-up? People could go "on and on" about slow dial up rates. Agreeing to take some steps to address it is the first move to improvement & there are many possibilities.
The only improvement being proposed here is releasing a full image more frequently than the current 6 months or so interval.

It's been explained that this is pretty much the same as any other Linux distribution. Ubuntu etc. It's also the same as any games console (New Switch game the other day, needed a half hours download to work), Windows etc so people are very familiar with the process.

It's also been explained that is not just distro updates that are included in these images - we also release new kernels, new desktop upgrades and new firmware and bootloaders. So its not the same as just doing an apt update/full-upgrade, we also use the opportunity to add new features.

It's also been explained that to release more frequently is a lot of work. It takes 6 months presently because that's how long it takes.

It's also been stated that there will be a new release of the image before Xmas. So anyone imaging an SD card will not have a long update process. However, Pi400 kits may not have the latest image as they are manufactured in advance, so even if a new image is out before Xmas, there is no guarantee that it will be on the SD card in kits. So the update will still be necessary in those circumstances.

Has that pretty much covered everything?
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PeterO
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:21 pm

ejolson wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:05 pm
The Pi 400 has changed things. The Pi is no longer a weird looking circuit board that nobody expects to get working right away, but a consumer good that will be unboxed and updated across the world all on the same day. Even though there are twelve days of Christmas, my belief is most of the updates will occur on the first.
Where do you get this idea that "nobody expects to get [it] working right away" from ? If that really was the case don't you think these forums would be full of "Pi4 didn't work right away" threads ?
Where are the millions of users complaing that it didn't work right away ?
It's so long ago that I can't remember the last time that a new PI hasn't worked straight from the box.
PeterO
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Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

incognitum
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:26 pm

ejolson wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:32 pm
Having said this, the package repository is certainly tested against the old image to make sure after upgrading that each type of Pi still boots.
On every package update?!
Does RPF(T) even control all repositories used to start with?

ejolson
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:33 pm

PeterO wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:21 pm
ejolson wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:05 pm
The Pi 400 has changed things. The Pi is no longer a weird looking circuit board that nobody expects to get working right away, but a consumer good that will be unboxed and updated across the world all on the same day. Even though there are twelve days of Christmas, my belief is most of the updates will occur on the first.
Where do you get this idea that "nobody expects to get [it] working right away" from ? If that really was the case don't you think these forums would be full of "Pi4 didn't work right away" threads ?
Where are the millions of users complaing that it didn't work right away ?
It's so long ago that I can't remember the last time that a new PI hasn't worked straight from the box.
PeterO
The distinction is working versus working properly. If the software didn't have bugs updates would not be necessary. If not necessary, the whole problem that doing them takes too long goes away.

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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:34 pm

incognitum wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:26 pm
ejolson wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:32 pm
Having said this, the package repository is certainly tested against the old image to make sure after upgrading that each type of Pi still boots.
On every package update?!
Does RPF(T) even control all repositories used to start with?
The idea from EJolson is clearly from someone who has never worked for a software house. Everything is tested in the field. If you pick an obscure enough package you will be the first person in the world to try it on a RPi.

Software testing and QA was ditched in the early noughties after all of the testing budget had been spent on Y2K.
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picandies
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:41 pm

peterpo wrote: from a few impatient people on slow internet connections that think their experience is representative of everyone else. There really isn't an issue here.
You are quite certain of this claim?...you should note the connection was on a measured 200 mb/sec hookup & the pi connection was measured at 38mb/sec. The update took between 30 & 40 minutes.

If what was downloaded in 2 passes had been done in one pass, there would have been at least 30 minutes saved, plus the freed server bandwidth could have been used by someone else. To say that downloading everything the first time might cause the system to not work is senseless, since that is what they will be doing anyhow. Albeit, they might still download a much much smaller update. A "bulletproof" 10000% tested version can be archived elsewhere on the website, if needed.

Perhaps you are correct that it is rare, but maybe it is rather common. At least say in the name of efficiency, it can be investigated.
Last edited by picandies on Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:42 pm

I've skipped the last two and a half pages (some of the replies were making me very annoyed), so this is probably out of nowhere, but every gigabyte counts.


If you're going to supply an image and then make the user update to the latest version (NOT untested software) to grab all the latest, tested, updates, why not supply them in the first place?

Some people have said "it's nothing compared to this company's updates" or "it's only a few minutes" or some other things, but nobody has considered the amount of energy serving that data uses and the amount of bandwidth the world will be using in the future.
Just think of how much that will contribute to global warming and then ask yourself if it's really okay to ignore.

Google data centre energy consumption, you might be shocked to hear that it's currently around 200 terawatt hours per year and internet usage is predicted to climb to over ten times as much by 2030.
See https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-06610-y
Last edited by Imperf3kt on Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ejolson
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:49 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:34 pm
incognitum wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:26 pm
ejolson wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:32 pm
Having said this, the package repository is certainly tested against the old image to make sure after upgrading that each type of Pi still boots.
On every package update?!
Does RPF(T) even control all repositories used to start with?
The idea from EJolson is clearly from someone who has never worked for a software house. Everything is tested in the field. If you pick an obscure enough package you will be the first person in the world to try it on a RPi.

Software testing and QA was ditched in the early noughties after all of the testing budget had been spent on Y2K.
It seems that you might be right. Which commercial software houses ship stuff that hasn't ever been installed?

In my opinion, the package should not be in the official repository for Raspberry Pi OS if it has not passed some sort of quality assurance. While different from the agile development ideal of move fast and break things, that a package has at least been installed as part of the testing seems like a minimal standard to me.

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CaptainMidnight
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:01 pm

picandies wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:41 pm
You are quite certain of this claim?...you should note the connection was on a measured 200 mb/sec hookup & the pi connection was measured at 38mb/sec. The update took between 30 & 40 minutes. Perhaps you are correct that it is rare, but maybe it is rather common.
Sorry this thread's getting too big to remember / review in detail, but with the speeds stated, are you confirming the Pi was using WiFi as it's network connection during the update/upgrade time period ..... just trying to clarify the Pi's connectivity and possible areas for delay to be introduced in the update/upgrade process (initially ignoring uSDcard write performance).
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jamesh
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Re: OS download is rather useless

Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:42 pm

I had enough of this. Same old stuff being repeated.

I've stated our position, twice. Seems people just ignored my posts. It's not going to change in the near future because we simply don't have the staff to to speed up the necessary testing process. If you want the latest and greatest distribution (not kernel or new features) then use the nightlies. You want the latest kernel, use RPI update. You won't get the new features that major image releases have.

Or, just take the hit and update.
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