Hello,
I built a enclosure out of wood ( a small arcade cabinet ) for my son that can log in to a spotify only account using Chromium.
This works great but we do get frequent breaks in the music for one up to maybe three seconds maybe once every one or two minutes.
Of course this is distracting so i started looking into extending the existing antenna but that turned out to be difficult if you dont have soldering experience.
We dont want to add a usb dongle wifi antenna as we'd like to keep the ports availabe.
Could i suggest that for the next iteration of the Pi that you consider having one of those little plugs that one can attach a longer antenna to?
Cheers
Fred
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
RedMarsBlueMoon wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:28 pmHello,
I built a enclosure out of wood ( a small arcade cabinet ) for my son that can log in to a spotify only account using Chromium.
This works great but we do get frequent breaks in the music for one up to maybe three seconds maybe once every one or two minutes.
Of course this is distracting so i started looking into extending the existing antenna but that turned out to be difficult if you dont have soldering experience.
We dont want to add a usb dongle wifi antenna as we'd like to keep the ports availabe.
Could i suggest that for the next iteration of the Pi that you consider having one of those little plugs that one can attach a longer antenna to?
Cheers
Fred
The CM4 I/O Board has that feature:
https://youtu.be/yiHgmNBOzkc
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/design ... -module-4/
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.
My other Linux machines are a ChromeBox & Intel CoreDuo Desktop
My other Linux machines are a ChromeBox & Intel CoreDuo Desktop
Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
Wood should not hinder a wifi signal.
Maybe just drill a hole that doesn't quite go all the way through the enclosure from the inside so the sidewall is thinner near the wifi antenna.
Maybe just drill a hole that doesn't quite go all the way through the enclosure from the inside so the sidewall is thinner near the wifi antenna.
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
Exactly that's why I mentioned it was made of wood.
There's also a dry wall inbetween but the router is just leaning up on the other side of that wall. (no stone/concrete).
Good spot about the compute module! They must be thinking along those lines then.
There's also a dry wall inbetween but the router is just leaning up on the other side of that wall. (no stone/concrete).
Good spot about the compute module! They must be thinking along those lines then.
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
Does the drywall have foil-lined insulation? That can cause havoc with WiFi.RedMarsBlueMoon wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:02 pmExactly that's why I mentioned it was made of wood.
There's also a dry wall inbetween but the router is just leaning up on the other side of that wall. (no stone/concrete).
Good spot about the compute module! They must be thinking along those lines then.
The problem with a socket for the WiFi antenna is regulatory approval. Approval is only granted for the type of antenna submitted for test. Users may be tempted to change antennas, thus violating the approval (and hence operating illegally in many jurisdictions).
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
Are you sure it is actually an issue arising from not having an external antenna, and not something else ?RedMarsBlueMoon wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:28 pmThis works great but we do get frequent breaks in the music for one up to maybe three seconds maybe once every one or two minutes.
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
I agree it may be something else. I have a PI0W in my garage running MotionEyeOS and it stays connected just fine. The signal is going through about 3 walls, then about 150 feet away, outside, then through another wall.
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
Wood might also be a problem for WiFi, depending on the water content.
The 2.4GHz band is available for consumer stuff, including WiFi, Bluetooth, etc., because water resonates at that frequency, and so microwave ovens use it to heat the water in food. Given a bunch of cheaply made appliances, it can't be guaranteed that it doesn't "leak" and play havoc with other stuff. So nothing critical will ever be there, which makes it open for consumer stuff. The skin depth for 2.4G in water is just a handful of millimeters, beyond which there is no appreciable signal.
So, if your wood has some water in it, that'll affect the WiFi.
The 2.4GHz band is available for consumer stuff, including WiFi, Bluetooth, etc., because water resonates at that frequency, and so microwave ovens use it to heat the water in food. Given a bunch of cheaply made appliances, it can't be guaranteed that it doesn't "leak" and play havoc with other stuff. So nothing critical will ever be there, which makes it open for consumer stuff. The skin depth for 2.4G in water is just a handful of millimeters, beyond which there is no appreciable signal.
So, if your wood has some water in it, that'll affect the WiFi.
Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
On the other hand, in my small apartment if I put a Pi outside on my balcony, all of 10 meters away from my access point indoors, connectivity is very poor. Speed is low, drops out all the time. Despite the fact I can see the access point from the Pi location through the windows.Dragontail281 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:51 pmI agree it may be something else. I have a PI0W in my garage running MotionEyeOS and it stays connected just fine. The signal is going through about 3 walls, then about 150 feet away, outside, then through another wall.
I can only imagine it is because of the metallic IR reflective coating on the windows. Great for stopping heat from escaping in the winter and preventing the place overheating in the direct sun in the summer. Plays havoc with WiFi and mobile phone signals.
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
I can stream youtube and spotify to my iphone one more room further away from the router so I wouldn't want to pry the blame away from the RPi.
EDIT: Maybe if it is too hard to get approval for an antenna 'jack' the onboard antenna just needs improving? My iphone has those plastic bands with the antenna running behind both at the top and the bottom. Maybe the pi could use something like that?

EDIT: Maybe if it is too hard to get approval for an antenna 'jack' the onboard antenna just needs improving? My iphone has those plastic bands with the antenna running behind both at the top and the bottom. Maybe the pi could use something like that?
Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
It appears the radio module on the Pi 4B and and Pi 400 is approved in its own right which would seem to offer more likelihood of Pi's arriving with an external antenna option in the future.RedMarsBlueMoon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:12 pmMaybe if it is too hard to get approval for an antenna 'jack' the onboard antenna just needs improving?
As to the on-board PCB antenna I have found it absolutely fine in my experience as limited as it is. But I have also seen less than favourable comments made about it.
That it's not working well for some doesn't mean it's not working well for others. Without identifying what the root issue is it's hard to say that it's a an issue of on-board antenna.
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
With it being an apartment, more than likely you exterior walls are concrete/block, which will block signal too.Heater wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:02 pmOn the other hand, in my small apartment if I put a Pi outside on my balcony, all of 10 meters away from my access point indoors, connectivity is very poor. Speed is low, drops out all the time. Despite the fact I can see the access point from the Pi location through the windows.Dragontail281 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:51 pmI agree it may be something else. I have a PI0W in my garage running MotionEyeOS and it stays connected just fine. The signal is going through about 3 walls, then about 150 feet away, outside, then through another wall.
I can only imagine it is because of the metallic IR reflective coating on the windows. Great for stopping heat from escaping in the winter and preventing the place overheating in the direct sun in the summer. Plays havoc with WiFi and mobile phone signals.
RPI3B+ - Raspberry Pi OS -general "playing" and/or RetroPi
RPI0W#1 - MotionEyeOS - yard surveillance
RPI0W#2 - Driveway gate monitor - coming soon
RPI0W#3 - ?????
RPI0W#1 - MotionEyeOS - yard surveillance
RPI0W#2 - Driveway gate monitor - coming soon
RPI0W#3 - ?????
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
Construction techniques vary considerably by region. Brick, stone, adobe, and concrete block are very much DISfavored in California because all of them are--unless done in very specific ways--classed as "unreinforced masonry" and perform very poorly in earthquakes (aka very prone to falling down and killing people), while wood frame, if done right (sheer walls and foundation bolts), stands up amazingly well.Dragontail281 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:59 pmWith it being an apartment, more than likely you exterior walls are concrete/block, which will block signal too.Heater wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:02 pmOn the other hand, in my small apartment if I put a Pi outside on my balcony, all of 10 meters away from my access point indoors, connectivity is very poor. Speed is low, drops out all the time. Despite the fact I can see the access point from the Pi location through the windows.Dragontail281 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:51 pmI agree it may be something else. I have a PI0W in my garage running MotionEyeOS and it stays connected just fine. The signal is going through about 3 walls, then about 150 feet away, outside, then through another wall.
I can only imagine it is because of the metallic IR reflective coating on the windows. Great for stopping heat from escaping in the winter and preventing the place overheating in the direct sun in the summer. Plays havoc with WiFi and mobile phone signals.
Brick is very common--and favored--in the US midwest, e.g. Chicago, because it's fire resistant. Concrete block is--or was, haven't been through in many years--Salt Lake City, which is a bad idea because of the near by Wasatch Fault.
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
It requires specific--and expensive--testing for each and every model of antenna that winds up as part of the approval. Hence, for the CM4, there is *one* approved external antenna. Use anything else and you're either running a--definitionally--out of compliance device, or you have to go through the full approval testing process for your chosen antenna.RedMarsBlueMoon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:12 pmI can stream youtube and spotify to my iphone one more room further away from the router so I wouldn't want to pry the blame away from the RPi.![]()
EDIT: Maybe if it is too hard to get approval for an antenna 'jack' the onboard antenna just needs improving? My iphone has those plastic bands with the antenna running behind both at the top and the bottom. Maybe the pi could use something like that?
Most likely the biggest problem would be people buying random antennas, connecting them to Pis and then having regulatory bodies landing on the RPT with both feet for selling an untested and--probably--out of compliance device. Replying that users aren't using the one tested, compliant antenna isn't too likely to get them off the hook.
I suspect the only way around this would be use a unique, and generally unobtainable, antenna connector so that the *only* antenna that can be connected is the official--tested--one. Hard to do that with all the hardware sources out there and people who know how to use a soldering iron.
Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
A minor "picky" correction - just to expose a a very common myth.AaronD wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:02 pmThe 2.4GHz band is available for consumer stuff, including WiFi, Bluetooth, etc., because water resonates at that frequency, and so microwave ovens use it to heat the water in food. Given a bunch of cheaply made appliances, it can't be guaranteed that it doesn't "leak" and play havoc with other stuff. So nothing critical will ever be there, which makes it open for consumer stuff. The skin depth for 2.4G in water is just a handful of millimeters, beyond which there is no appreciable signal.
So, if your wood has some water in it, that'll affect the WiFi.
The 2.4GHz frequency isn't a specific water absorption frequency, they don't start until a much higher frequency. 2.4Ghz was a just a convenient frequency for cheap but efficient magnetrons. Most frequencies are absorbed by water in a non-resonant manner.
But as you say, because of microwave ovens, wifi was given as a freebie around that frequency as it was considered it would be unreliable and unmarketable for commercial use..
Edit: Spell guesser got me good .... abortion/absorption
Last edited by pidd on Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
Just to make it clear my building does not have 'hard' materials for walls other than the underground garage. That goes for inside and outside.
The water levels in the wood I imagine to be negligible, and if you think they aren't then every building in the world have similar amount of water in the wood.
I did explain that my iphone is doing fine with both audio and video with one additional wall between itself and the router. And the youtube app on the iphone is really crap.
I generally agree with @hippy that it's possible that its something wrong with the software. Chromium or the way Spotify runs on chromium and that should be looked into more. I don't know how I could diagnose that?
Is there a tool that just measures wifi reception from a router?
Guys, I love my Raspberry Pies as much as you do but that doesn't mean that everything is always the fault of something else.
The water levels in the wood I imagine to be negligible, and if you think they aren't then every building in the world have similar amount of water in the wood.
I did explain that my iphone is doing fine with both audio and video with one additional wall between itself and the router. And the youtube app on the iphone is really crap.
I generally agree with @hippy that it's possible that its something wrong with the software. Chromium or the way Spotify runs on chromium and that should be looked into more. I don't know how I could diagnose that?
Is there a tool that just measures wifi reception from a router?
Guys, I love my Raspberry Pies as much as you do but that doesn't mean that everything is always the fault of something else.
Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
Like I said, I have clear line of sight between where I tried the Pi outside and the WiFi router inside. This building is indeed concrete/block but between me and my balcony is almost entirely glass. Of course being Finland there are three layers of glazing in there. About the only device that can use my WiFi out there is a Mikrotick router board, in the 5 band, with a giant antenna on it.Dragontail281 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:59 pmWith it being an apartment, more than likely you exterior walls are concrete/block, which will block signal too.
The IR reflective glazing used in new buildings around here has caused people to have very poor mobile phone connectivity as well. Luckily not so here.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .
Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
The water content varies based on ambient conditions. Pretty much all (serious) woodworkers know that and allow for their work to expand, contract, and move around as the weather changes. That movement is driven by the wood absorbing and releasing water as humidity.RedMarsBlueMoon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:08 pmThe water levels in the wood I imagine to be negligible, and if you think they aren't then every building in the world have similar amount of water in the wood.
Also a good point. I hadn't completely considered that.pidd wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:34 pmA minor "picky" correction - just to expose a a very common myth.
The 2.4GHz frequency isn't a specific water abortion frequency, they don't start until a much higher frequency. 2.4Ghz was a just a convenient frequency for cheap but efficient magnetrons. Most frequencies are absorbed by water in a non-resonant manner.
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
Either that or a really serious finish with multiple coats of spar varnish.AaronD wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:01 amThe water content varies based on ambient conditions. Pretty much all (serious) woodworkers know that and allow for their work to expand, contract, and move around as the weather changes. That movement is driven by the wood absorbing and releasing water as humidity.
Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
That works too, but the OP hasn't mentioned it. Also, it doesn't take the moisture out, but simply seals it so that it doesn't change.W. H. Heydt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:13 amEither that or a really serious finish with multiple coats of spar varnish.AaronD wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:01 amThe water content varies based on ambient conditions. Pretty much all (serious) woodworkers know that and allow for their work to expand, contract, and move around as the weather changes. That movement is driven by the wood absorbing and releasing water as humidity.
Last edited by AaronD on Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
Run a continuous ping with the target as the Pi. If the sound drops out and there aren't any missing pings then its not the WiFi.RedMarsBlueMoon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:08 pmIs there a tool that just measures wifi reception from a router?
Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
ping and traceroute (mtr is a snazzy version of traceroute) will definitely help here. mtr will show packets lost, in real time.
Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
My day job involves high specific moisture content wood. I could try to test wifi reception under various conditions if there's enough interest.AaronD wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:28 amThat works too, but the OP hasn't mentioned it. Also, it doesn't take the moisture out, but simply seals it so that it doesn't change.W. H. Heydt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:13 amEither that or a really serious finish with multiple coats of spar varnish.AaronD wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:01 amThe water content varies based on ambient conditions. Pretty much all (serious) woodworkers know that and allow for their work to expand, contract, and move around as the weather changes. That movement is driven by the wood absorbing and releasing water as humidity.
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
I can't see that happening. The principle that a manufacturer is not responsible for unlawful acts undertaken by the users of its products is well established.W. H. Heydt wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:25 pmMost likely the biggest problem would be people buying random antennas, connecting them to Pis and then having regulatory bodies landing on the RPT with both feet for selling an untested and--probably--out of compliance device. Replying that users aren't using the one tested, compliant antenna isn't too likely to get them off the hook.
It seems to me the only justified complaint could be of encouraging unlawful acts by not including a certified antenna with the product which leads to some users choosing something other than the certified antenna they sell as an optional extra.
If that were a potential problem the mitigation would be to include an antenna with every product which has an antenna connector, and not have the antenna connector when a product doesn't include an antenna.
I would also assume they had considered and discounted this exact issue when they decided to sell the CM4 with an antenna connector and sell the certified antenna separately.
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Re: Antenna connector for the next Pi!?
Consider also that many products based on the CM4 will need to be re-certified in any case, at least AIUI.
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