User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:47 am

I just did a few tests. I know I live out in the sticks but it takes between 10 and 20 seconds for the FAQ page to fully load on my PC, about 8 seconds for some of the comments pages for the longer blogs, compared to a fraction of a second for other pages.

rpt
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:09 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:01 am

I agree that comments on the blog should be disabled. Many of the comments on a post are irrelevant to that comment anyway. I'd also disable comments on the FAQ.

Alchemy
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:10 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:10 am

Depends on the blog post. Some information is just facts you can't add more. So disable posts on it.

Some information is about delays. Technically you have nothing to add but allowing posts takes the lid of the pot before it explodes.

pluggster
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:13 am

+1 Montekuri, RaTTuS, Stormy1, bredman et al.

User avatar
ArborealSeer
Posts: 300
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:48 am
Location: South West, UK

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:18 am

+ 1 rattus too.. its what i would have suggested had I not been beaten to it.
Pi Status > Farnell, Arrived 24/5- RS, Arrived 1/6

User avatar
Robert_M
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:46 am

I have no objection to moderated blog posts.

I'm also mostly okay with the idea of disabling comments to blog posts entirely.

But if blog posts were replicated in a special forum sub-section, as has already been suggested, then for those particular blog posts that leave questions unanswered, there will be someplace to follow up.

The other thing lost when comments are disabled on blog posts is the ability to simply say "WooHoo!" or "+1" to good news or cool tricks. It takes a certain amount of effort to put a proper blog post together, and it'd be nice to have a quick & simple way to show appreciation for that if comments are disabled - even if it's just a counter to tally up "+1" clicks (but please, for the love of Pi, don't go to a Facebook integration just to get that kind of functionality. I wouldn't be able to tell you how wonderful the blog posts are if Facebook membership were required to do so).
I sometimes ride my Pi to the Forum.

kasperl
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:20 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:55 am

I think disabling blog comments is pretty much the way to go. I would like to second the request for some beefier forum software as well though. There's a lot of stuff out there which is quite a lot more capable, especially in marking new/unread posts and searching for specific posts.

toxibunny
Posts: 1382
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:21 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:14 am

1. post blog post

2. add 'discuss this on the forums' link

sorted.
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

timn
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:39 am

+1 on disabling comments on blogs.

Allan
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:16 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:54 pm

+1 on disabling comments on both blog and FAQ. Is it possible to trim the existing FAQ comments too? 1,861 'thoughts' is rather a lot and very few of them add anything to the FAQ.

Moving away from the Wordpress forum software would be a good step too. I appreciate it would be a lot of work for the admins and may result in existing members having to sign up to the new forum which won't go down well with many people but the current forum software really does struggle at times and I suspect the load is about to get much higher after the launch. As Kasperl said, there is a good choice of forum software out there.

On a forum I administer we individually approve (or not!) each pending new member. It is a chore but actually reduces the overall workload for the admins because the delay in the sign-up process puts enough of a break in the 'Read post > Get mad > Sign up to forum > Start flame war' chain to kill off many potential arguments at source.

Just a thought.

User avatar
liz
Raspberry Pi Foundation Employee & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Foundation Employee & Forum Moderator
Posts: 5212
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:22 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:19 pm

Thanks, guys - a very different consensus from what I'd been expecting! I think that if at all possible, those commenting should be directed (easily) to a new forum topic rather than being able to post under the blog posts themselves. I'll spend some time over the weekend looking at the best ways to implement that.

The FAQ comments are the way they are because some months ago Alan, one of the trustees, requested they be like this. I think they've outgrown their usefulness, so another task for the weekend will be archiving and removing them.

Thanks very much for all your input; it's really very helpful when trying to make a decision on this sort of thing!
Director of Communications, Raspberry Pi

SneakerMonkey
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:21 pm

toxibunny said:


1. post blog post

2. add 'discuss this on the forums' link

sorted.

^^^ this is a good idea


jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 26650
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:50 pm

ElReg have just changed their moderation policy - seems sensiible..

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2.....ines_2012/
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

Lynbarn
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:03 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:05 pm

JamesH said:


ElReg have just changed their moderation policy – seems sensiible..

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2.....ines_2012/


That"'s actually quite a good policy – a well-balanced approach, plenty of freedom for the majority, minimal extra effort required from the mods, but with an easily understood progression to the ultimate sanction for the transgressors – if it can easily be done within Wordpress…

cowfodder
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:07 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:54 am

liz said:


Thanks, guys - a very different consensus from what I'd been expecting! I think that if at all possible, those commenting should be directed (easily) to a new forum topic rather than being able to post under the blog posts themselves. I'll spend some time over the weekend looking at the best ways to implement that.

The FAQ comments are the way they are because some months ago Alan, one of the trustees, requested they be like this. I think they've outgrown their usefulness, so another task for the weekend will be archiving and removing them.

Thanks very much for all your input; it's really very helpful when trying to make a decision on this sort of thing!


Liz,

I don't know about wordpress, but it's very easy in phpbb to setup a forum where only certain user ranks can create a topic, but everyone can comment on it.  If I were you I would look at migrating to phpbb for the forum (mainly because that's what the forum I admin uses.)

User avatar
Jessie
Posts: 1754
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:40 pm
Location: C/S CO USA

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:20 am

cowfodder said:


I don't know about wordpress, but it's very easy in phpbb to setup a forum where only certain user ranks can create a topic, but everyone can comment on it.  If I were you I would look at migrating to phpbb for the forum (mainly because that's what the forum I admin uses.)


If you want to go just upon preference I personally like vBulliten.

roelfrenkema
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:17 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:57 am

Lets just face it, 'modern' forums are nothing then a bad emulation of the usenet. They are flat and unproductive. I would never use either wordpress nor phpbb or any other futile attempt to emulate usually based on MySql.

These primitive program solutions are prone to hacking attacks and one update usually leads to two new exploits.  Thats why I think Google made the right choise with their Google groups that is an effective and good use of a very good protocol to have discussions on. NNTP rules and so do Google Groups.

There is a Raspberry discussion group as announced in my sig.

spurious
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:29 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:37 am

My 2p

Remove blog comments - you don't want unseemly comments off the front page.

Forum - on report post, either hide post until moderated or 3 strike rule and delete after 3 reports.

Might want an adult content button too and it moves those comments to another area.

This is because very soon this will be inundated by children wanting to find out more about the new machines they have at school.

User avatar
Jongoleur
Posts: 1179
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:47 pm
Location: O'erlooking the sea, and all those effin windfarms...

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:52 am

Well, it says "your input wanted" and it hasn't been locked yet, so...

Me Too!

I don't know how I missed this thread as I've been around for the past couple of days - it doesn't fill me with confidence re noticing that the Pi has gone on sale when that happens.  Nevermind....

There's been a lot of eloquent argument on a number of measures, for what its worth here's some I agree with (without some of the verbiage).


Disallow comment on the blogs.
More active discouragement of trolls and flamebait. 
As well as complete bans, variable "cooling off" bans for minor/first offenders
Allow posters to retract posts, even if there have been subsequent posts ("This comment has been removed by the author" sort of stuff). I think most people have posted, and come back with a cup of coffee to think WTF?  I didn't mean THAT!  Did I?
You'll need more admins for the forum, just to keep a closer eye on things


There has been some mention of user moderation (thumbsup/down style stuff).  Even allowing only positive expression, this still becomes a bit of a popularity contest.  If applied to comments, then we'd end up with a slashdot type appearance with valid comment vanishing because they've not scored compared with other posts.  If applied to a member, it turns into a popularity index and there's more work for mods as less "approved of" posters get held back for moderation.  I prefer the moderator "whack-a-mole" approach. 

As I said.

Me TOO!!!
I'm just a bouncer, splatterers do it with more force.....

tufty
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:32 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:00 pm

Allowing post removal only encourages forum drahma. Once you"ve posted, you"ve posted - if you were drunk, man up and apologise. Seriously.

The FAQ is so slow to load /not/ because of the number of comments, but because of bloody gravatar requests for each comment (the same goes for all the long threaded blog posts). Gravatar sucks, it adds nothing, kill it kill it kill it.

Nntp as suggested above might well be a decent solution. It would certainly be better than this wordpress junk.

Simon

User avatar
Burngate
Posts: 6301
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:34 pm
Location: Berkshire UK Tralfamadore
Contact: Website

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:42 pm

"Gravatar Sucks ..." could the icons be mirrored / archived / cached on the forum server? That, I would think, would speed them up. Maybe. Or not. Same for JPGs. Though not videos.

Just talking, brain disengaged.

tufty
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:32 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:29 pm

Burngate said:


"Gravatar Sucks …" could the icons be mirrored / archived / cached on the forum server? That, I would think, would speed them up. Maybe. Or not. Same for JPGs. Though not videos.

Just talking, brain disengaged.


Well, the problem is this.  The forum software itself goes and looks for relevant details about each user who has posted, which is (at best, if the software's coded properly) one database hit.  Part of the data returned is information about the avatar (usually the name of a file stored on the server's filesystem, might be information required to make a second database query and return the binary image from the database, or, in the current case, a key that's used to go off and get the image from gravatar.com).  This information is used to produce an <img> tag, which is sent back to the browser.  As the page is rendered, the <img> tag is resolved, and a query is made.  For the "server-local storage" case, the browser knows where the server is (no DNS lookup, so faster), and should already have a connection to the server open (which also cuts time).  With the gravatar.com case, a dns lookup and new connection have to be established.  And then there's the latency of gravatar.com, which appears to be significant when there's a large number of queries being made.

I just profiled the FAQs page, it took 41 seconds to load.

The HTML for the page itself claims to have been built in 4.9 seconds, which looks about right (but which is glacially slow anyway).

There was another 5 or six seconds of "faffing", requesting huge amounts of pointless javascript. This was not a "clean" reload, so what was requested is already cached on my machine, there was very little actual data transfer.  What do I mean by pointless?  Mainly javascript that's only required for editing, despite not being required in the "majority" case of not wanting to edit.

The remaining 30+ seconds was *entirely* made up of requests to gravatar.com. 1089 requests to gravatar.com.

Even storing them locally wouldn't fix this issue – 1000+ requests take time to serve, even if it's by returning a "304 Not Modified" response, and especially given that each hit to the faqs page would then cause another 1000+ hits to the raspberrypi.org server, which appears to be falling apart at the seams already.

Avatar gettage is far less significant on pages with a "sensible" number of comments, of course – the FAQs page as it stands is totally pathological and needs to have its comments removed.

I'm becoming more enamoured by the minute of roelfrenkema's suggestion of an nntp server.  Not only would i mean being able to use a decent editing and reading tool for browsing the discussions (emacs / gnus), but the whole gravatar / javascript / bloody awful web editor interface / stupid math question issue would become absolutely moot (but remain accessible through *someone else's server* if you insist on it – i.e. groups.google.com).

Simon

User avatar
scep
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:53 am

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:36 pm

This may come as a shock to many of the current members of the Pi forums, but the average web user – and target Pi customer – does not care about (has not even heard of) protocols, emacs, gnus, usenet etc. It all comes across as rather elitist even though it may not be meant in that way. The current forum demographic is far from "normal" – let's not forget that.

And as much as I prefer forum software like phpBB or SMF (yes, I'm a n00b, don't get nuffin, all writing is just a crap simulacrum of cuneiform blah blah ) to WP, I find Google Groups pretty useless TBH.

[edit]yes, the Gravatar thing has always bugged me too – can this be switched off to allow uploaded / forum gallery avatars only?

russ wall
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:49 pm

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:46 pm

gravatars ... just say NO. What is the point of them?

User avatar
Burngate
Posts: 6301
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:34 pm
Location: Berkshire UK Tralfamadore
Contact: Website

Re: Moderated blog comments: your input wanted!

Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:46 am

Burngate said:


Just talking, brain disengaged.



Engage Brain. Read Tufty. Engage fingers. Type "Switch off Gravitars" Disengage Fingers. Disengage Brain.

Return to “General discussion”