whiteshepherd
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:39 pm

Fans wear out. I find the cheap inexpensive passive cooling aluminum cases work well even when at max stress will not throttle. Example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Aluminum-Case- ... SwZH1d4Jeh

If you want a cheap efficient active cooling with a smart fan then something like the Argon is about as good as it gets. Example: https://www.amazon.com/Argon-Raspberry- ... s9dHJ1ZQ==

I am of the opinion the cooler you keep your electronics the longer they will generally last.

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clicky
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:51 pm

whiteshepherd wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:39 pm
Fans wear out.
Quite correct. Reason more to invest some time to run PWM version of software for fan shim (or similar).

cspan
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:52 pm

Revisiting this topic in light of the Pi 400 ...

Please confirm or correct my understanding ... from what I read, it appears that there's general agreement that:

- A normally-operating Pi 4 won't overheat, full stop. To ensure this, it may have to throttle performance when under heavy load.

- The Pi 400 achieves such dramatic heat-sink-based cooling that the chip can operate at 20% higher clock speed, without even accounting for overclocking. As with the Pi 4, it won't overheat, but it won't really ever have to throttle, either. Even overclocked.

In contemplating an upgrade to my 3B/3B+ units (my use case is desktop replacement*, eventually), I find it is a difficult choice. The 4B advantages are the potential to get 8 GB RAM, retention of the audio port, and the need/ability to bring my own keyboard (I'm not a big fan of the Pi keyboard). But I may need a cooling solution to prevent throttling.

The Pi 400 advantages are higher processor speed, elimination of throttling, power "button(s)", and the kit that, for a more-than-fair premium over the equivalent 4B, packages nice and/or necessary items such as HDMI cable, power supply, SD card, effectively a case (and one with the most effective and elegant cooling solution to date), keyboard, mouse, guidebook, etc. All very aesthetically pleasing too.

* In addition to email and browsing, I use LibreOffice quite a bit (Calc, Writer, Impress), work with PDFs (some large), and edit photos. I rarely edit video anymore. I download/manage music and podcasts too.

Anyway, it would be a a tough decision if I had to make it now. Fortunately I don't have to, but I have some pretty old hardware that my Pi are backing up.

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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:35 pm

cspan wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:52 pm
Revisiting this topic in light of the Pi 400 ...

Please confirm or correct my understanding ... from what I read, it appears that there's general agreement that:

- A normally-operating Pi 4 won't overheat, full stop. To ensure this, it may have to throttle performance when under heavy load.

- The Pi 400 achieves such dramatic heat-sink-based cooling that the chip can operate at 20% higher clock speed, without even accounting for overclocking. As with the Pi 4, it won't overheat, but it won't really ever have to throttle, either. Even overclocked.

In contemplating an upgrade to my 3B/3B+ units (my use case is desktop replacement*, eventually), I find it is a difficult choice. The 4B advantages are the potential to get 8 GB RAM, retention of the audio port, and the need/ability to bring my own keyboard (I'm not a big fan of the Pi keyboard). But I may need a cooling solution to prevent throttling.

The Pi 400 advantages are higher processor speed, elimination of throttling, power "button(s)", and the kit that, for a more-than-fair premium over the equivalent 4B, packages nice and/or necessary items such as HDMI cable, power supply, SD card, effectively a case (and one with the most effective and elegant cooling solution to date), keyboard, mouse, guidebook, etc. All very aesthetically pleasing too.

* In addition to email and browsing, I use LibreOffice quite a bit (Calc, Writer, Impress), work with PDFs (some large), and edit photos. I rarely edit video anymore. I download/manage music and podcasts too.

Anyway, it would be a a tough decision if I had to make it now. Fortunately I don't have to, but I have some pretty old hardware that my Pi are backing up.

The Raspberry Pi SBC can not overheat, they have always included Thermal Management, click-bait websites over-egged the 4B *supposed* issues.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... agement.md


The VideoCore which is at the heart of the SoC has had years of development and many of RPT Staff previously worked for Old Broadcom before it was sold to Avago.


Regards the 400 it has a revised SoC shared with the CM4, so not just better cooling but many other tweaks. The reason the CM4 and 4B are clocked lower is that there is no Official Cooling Product. Though an overclock to 1800+ seems perfectly achievable....
Thinking outside the box is better than burying your head in the sand...

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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:58 pm

whiteshepherd wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:39 pm
Fans wear out.
While true, I haven't seen a single fan wear out in the last three decades, and some of those fans have tens of thousands of hours use.
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:02 pm

In my opinion all models other than the Pi 4 need cooling. The Pi 4 gets a lot hotter that the previous models because it uses USB-C, and the Pi will run slow if it gets to hot. Also it is a likely fire hazard if it gets TOO hot, but I doubt it would come to that.
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Heater
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:20 am

QuiteCuriousKoala wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:02 pm
In my opinion all models other than the Pi 4 need cooling. The Pi 4 gets a lot hotter that the previous models...
Sorry, can't handle the self contradiction in that statement. Please clarify.
QuiteCuriousKoala wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:02 pm
...because it uses USB-C
It seems impossible to me that a device would consume more power and generate more heat because of a connector change. Please clarify.
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Kaadk
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:07 am

cspan wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:52 pm
Revisiting this topic in light of the Pi 400 ...

Please confirm or correct my understanding ... from what I read, it appears that there's general agreement that:

- A normally-operating Pi 4 won't overheat, full stop. To ensure this, it may have to throttle performance when under heavy load.

- The Pi 400 achieves such dramatic heat-sink-based cooling that the chip can operate at 20% higher clock speed, without even accounting for overclocking. As with the Pi 4, it won't overheat, but it won't really ever have to throttle, either. Even overclocked.

In contemplating an upgrade to my 3B/3B+ units (my use case is desktop replacement*, eventually), I find it is a difficult choice. The 4B advantages are the potential to get 8 GB RAM, retention of the audio port, and the need/ability to bring my own keyboard (I'm not a big fan of the Pi keyboard). But I may need a cooling solution to prevent throttling.

The Pi 400 advantages are higher processor speed, elimination of throttling, power "button(s)", and the kit that, for a more-than-fair premium over the equivalent 4B, packages nice and/or necessary items such as HDMI cable, power supply, SD card, effectively a case (and one with the most effective and elegant cooling solution to date), keyboard, mouse, guidebook, etc. All very aesthetically pleasing too.

* In addition to email and browsing, I use LibreOffice quite a bit (Calc, Writer, Impress), work with PDFs (some large), and edit photos. I rarely edit video anymore. I download/manage music and podcasts too.

Anyway, it would be a a tough decision if I had to make it now. Fortunately I don't have to, but I have some pretty old hardware that my Pi are backing up.
My 4B 8GB has almost completely become my replacement non-work desktop (aside from my itunes/plex still running off my old iMac). Handles all my basic browsing, office, email, etc... needs and it's been running in the 40's mostly just on passive cooling. I had no experience with Pi's before, so based on the reviews on various youtube sites, I had purchased an Argon One case for it, thinking I was going to need the active/passive cooling mix. In the 3 months I've been using this, I have *never* once heard the fan kick on, or see the temp go over 48. I probably would have been fine with something like the Flirc, and just ran it on passive cooling. My case is rarely ever warm, and I doubt I'd ever hit throttling with simple day to day usage, even without a case, as long as I had it on standoffs and had room for air to get around it.

In your case, it seems, well, not necessarily 'wrong' but 'odd' to want a 400, but not the keyboard. You get more I/O with a Pi4B, for a cheaper price, and more or less, the same performance (Yes, one is clocked higher out the gate). The benefits to the 400 is the 'all in one' aspect of it. If the only reason you want one is the heatsink, then just throw a heat sink on a Pi4B and call it a day.

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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:02 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:58 pm
whiteshepherd wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:39 pm
Fans wear out.
While true, I haven't seen a single fan wear out in the last three decades, and some of those fans have tens of thousands of hours use.
I have seen several wear out. Mostly in cheap PC PSUs, but the one in my not-very-cheap laptop started making nasty noises a few months ago and I had to replace it.

I like the fact My Raspberrys don't need fans :)
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:34 am

A PC in the office started running very slowly for no obvious reason. It wasn't a Windows problem.
Turned out to be the fan had died and the CPU was overheating and throttling.

A common problem with fans is the accumulation of dust which in time can block the cooling fins and cause overheating.
rpdom wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:02 am
I like the fact My Raspberrys don't need fans :)
+1
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thatchunkylad198966
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:28 am

Well, just my two cents...

When I first got my RPI4, (day of release) the heat was scary, I managed to get a fanshim and haven't looked back!
40c idle and 65c under full load.

I like it.
Honestly, if you're hammering your RPI4 100% CPU usage, you're going to need good cooling/a fan, IMO.
One man's trash is another man's treasure! :) Pi's I have; Pi Zero, Pi Zero W, Pi 2 x2, Pi 3 x2, Pi 4 4GB x2.

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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:31 am

thatchunkylad198966 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:28 am
When I first got my RPI4, (day of release) the heat was scary, I managed to get a fanshim and haven't looked back!
40c idle and 65c under full load.
Did you know that some time ago the engineers sorted the firmware and running temps are far lower than on the day of release?
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thatchunkylad198966
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:35 am

jahboater wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:31 am
thatchunkylad198966 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:28 am
When I first got my RPI4, (day of release) the heat was scary, I managed to get a fanshim and haven't looked back!
40c idle and 65c under full load.
Did you know that some time ago the engineers sorted the firmware and running temps are far lower than on the day of release?
I wouldn't say far lower but yes, I know. under 100% CPU usage I was still getting a over-heating warning and throttling. :)
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AndrewPiEater
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:46 am

I run 3 Pi 4Bs in a cluster. They are all using PoE and are cooled by the intrinsic fan that comes with the hat. Fans come on quite often.

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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:17 pm

thatchunkylad198966 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:35 am
I wouldn't say far lower but yes, I know. under 100% CPU usage I was still getting a over-heating warning and throttling. :)
That's interesting. I have a Pi4 here with no cooling at all, not even a stick on heat sink, and its ventilation is mostly blocked by a HAT.
I tried running this for about 1/2 hour and yes, you are right, it does eventually reach 80C or so. It didn't throttle for some reason.
You would think it should throttle at 81C?

Code: Select all

stress-ng --cpu 4 --cpu-method fft

Code: Select all

Time       Temp     CPU     Core         Health           Vcore    PMIC
12:09:57  81.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
12:10:07  80.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
12:10:18  81.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
12:10:28  79.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
12:10:38  79.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
12:10:49  80.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
12:10:59  79.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
12:11:09  79.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
12:11:20  80.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
12:11:30  79.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
12:11:40  81.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
12:11:50  80.0'C  1500MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8350V  72.2'C
but that's extreme, I doubt that any normal workload would get it that hot, not even something big like compiling the kernel.
Last edited by jahboater on Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:18 pm

QuiteCuriousKoala wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:02 pm
In my opinion all models other than the Pi 4 need cooling. The Pi 4 gets a lot hotter that the previous models because it uses USB-C, and the Pi will run slow if it gets to hot. Also it is a likely fire hazard if it gets TOO hot, but I doubt it would come to that.
Sorry, got to flag this post up as wrong.

No Pi models NEED cooling. They will ways self regulate to prevent high temperatures, and will NEVER EVER become a fire risk.

The Pi0,1 have no need for extra cooling at all. They will likely never get hot enough for the throttling to happen (except perhaps when in a very enclosed or hot space)

The Pi2/3/4 MIGHT benefit from extra cooling if you run them at 100% all the time, but general desktop use will rarely hit throttling temperatures.

USB-C is completely irrelevant.
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zxcvbob
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:29 pm

My first post and I'm going to step in a controversial topic :) I just ordered a 0W and can't wait for it to get here. After I get my feet wet with that I'm planning to get a 4B to tinker with and the 0W will be dedicated to... something. (I used to program embedded system SBCs back in the mid 1980s in assembly language and can't believe how far they have come since then, and just how much you can get now for $10) Meanwhile, I am putting my shopping list together for the 4B.

Anyway, the official Pi 4 case is cute but looks like it would overheat severely. Are you supposed to run it with the cover off? Serious question; the lid might just be for carrying it in your pocket or purse. Or is there a different case for the model B that has vent holes in the top? One thing I'm planning to try is running a BOINC client with all 4 cores doing number crunching (World Community Grid if it supports ARM processors) but that might not last long before I move on to something less taxing.

Do you even need to mount Pi in a case, or can you just put little feet on the bottom to get it off the desk and using it open-air? Thanks for listening.

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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:57 pm

zxcvbob wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:29 pm
Do you even need to mount Pi in a case, or can you just put little feet on the bottom to get it off the desk and using it open-air? Thanks for listening.
No it doesn't need to be in a case. Its all personal preference.
I think the Raspberry Pi is such a clever design that its nice to actually see it, but there are many excellent cases:

https://flirc.tv/more/raspberry-pi-4-case

https://thepihut.com/collections/raspbe ... berry-pi-4

or even just a stick on heat sink:

https://thepihut.com/collections/raspbe ... 4-heatsink

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/heatsinks/7500951/

One option, free with the MagPi, is a plastic or card strip with a slot cut in it, placed at right angles to the Pi so that Pi is held on edge.

As noted by the engineer above, extra cooling is not mandatory.
If the Pi4 is overclocked and the workload is heavy, a heat sink might improve the performance (avoids throttling).
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LTolledo
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:23 pm

zxcvbob wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:29 pm
Do you even need to mount Pi in a case, or can you just put little feet on the bottom to get it off the desk and using it open-air?
as long as a similar scene below can be avoided at all cost.... then it may be OK.
RPi3A+_disaster-waiting-to-happen.jpg
RPi3A+_disaster-waiting-to-happen.jpg (174.95 KiB) Viewed 271 times

some have ingeniously used the RPi's own box that came with it as an "interim case", cutting out holes for the necessary ports, and standoffs...
(might try it myself and post pictures later on)

going back to the question....extra cooling is necessary if, based on personal preference, its deemed absolutely necessary....
otherwise... heed the RPF engineer's recommendation on the matter...
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:56 pm

LTolledo wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:23 pm
zxcvbob wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:29 pm
Do you even need to mount Pi in a case, or can you just put little feet on the bottom to get it off the desk and using it open-air?
as long as a similar scene below can be avoided at all cost.... then it may be OK.
RPi3A+_disaster-waiting-to-happen.jpg


some have ingeniously used the RPi's own box that came with it as an "interim case", cutting out holes for the necessary ports, and standoffs...
(might try it myself and post pictures later on)

going back to the question....extra cooling is necessary if, based on personal preference, its deemed absolutely necessary....
otherwise... heed the RPF engineer's recommendation on the matter...
That picture looks like what I will have if I'm not careful; that's why I'd really like to use a case. Currently planning to buy the official Pi case and some little stick-on heat sinks, and take the lid off the case when the in use. A friend who has several Pis says I'll be sorry if I don't get a case w/ a fan.

Homemade paperboard case from the original box is not a bad idea...

ganzgustav22
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:19 am

Currently planning to buy the official Pi case and some little stick-on heat sinks, and take the lid off the case when the in use. A friend who has several Pis says I'll be sorry if I don't get a case w/ a fan.
A fan is absolutely not needed with one of those cases that have a thermal connection to the SoC. They give very good cooling performance without a fan.

The "Flirc Case" for example or one of the knock-offs.
https://magpi.raspberrypi.org/articles/ ... ase-review

If you search for "Pi4 heatsink case" on Amazon or Ebay you'll find several different options. Just make sure it's one of those that has a thermal path to the SoC.

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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:45 pm

Note that the Flirc case makes access to the GPIO pins very difficult without modifying the case, or buying a special cable.
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:27 pm

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GlynH
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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:22 am

I can only speak as I find but I have a couple of Model 4/4GB and have the official RPi PoE HAT with fan so I can just run a Cat6 from switch to Pi and I'm done.

I bought a third 4/4GB and bought the Uctronics Mini PoE HAT fanless which was slightly more expensive than the official version.

I liked it because it had a cut-out over the CPU location which meant I could use a heatsink or even a fan shim.

The fan version idled @38c where the fanless version idled @58.2c so although hotter was still well within spec.

Although I was going to go over to the fanless version as I like the idea of silence, no moving parts to fail, less dust etc. for my own peace of mind I decided to exchange the fanless PoE HAT for the version with the fan as currently my loft is pretty cold @15c where it rises @40c in the summer months. That additional 25c ambient temperature might push it towards throttling and I never like driving anything flat out.

Interestingly between swapping the HAT I purchased a tall, passive heat sink designed specifically for the Pi 4 from a reputable dealer and the idle temp actually increased slightly from 58.2c without to 58.4c (although there could be other reasons but I expected to see more cooling effect than that) with so I wrote that idea off.

Mind you the heat transfer pad looked like nothing more than double sided tape and would probably have been more efficient with Arctic Silver or similar but it proved to me that in my situation fan cooling was the preferred method.

Both Pi's were housed in identical aluminium cases with vent holes in the top (not also in the bottom as advertised) and although I purchased the FlirC case with its own heat sink solution based on my heat sink experience I decided not to use it and swapped that for another aluminium case at half the price. The fact that it wouldn't accommodate the PoE HAT played a big part in my decision not to use it but for peace of mind I would prefer a fan every time.

The only thing that troubles me about the official PoE HAT is it is rated at 2.5A which is fine for a 3B but the Foundation themselves recommend a 3A PSU for the Model 4 despite their own PoE HAT being listed as compatible?

-=Glyn=-

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Re: How necessary is extra cooling for the RPi4 now?

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:27 am

GlynH wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:22 am
Mind you the heat transfer pad looked like nothing more than double sided tape
Its not unknown for these pads to actually be an insulator !!!

This one from RS works very well:-
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/heatsinks/7500951/
Align the fins with the airflow of course.
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