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TheMindVirus
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Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:24 pm

Something to try for anyone willing to experiment with their Raspberry Pi 4 8GB Model (I have the 4GB Model):
What happens when you allocate 4096M to the GPU in raspi-config's GPU Memory Split option? (or gpu_mem=4096 in /boot/config.txt)
WARNING: Hopefully this doesn't brick the Pi (in which case you can edit the SD on PC by changing /boot/config.txt back to gpu_mem=64).

A 32-bit userland can only access up to 4GB of RAM per process. I happen to have a working 4GB swap partition on my Pi Zero.
Could all of the remaining 4GB be allocated to the GPU? Does it allow more graphics-intensive applications to run?
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:27 pm

the GPU side of things can only ever use the lower 1gig of ram
and linux needs some of that to boot, so your gpu_mem maxes out somewhere just below 1024

also, with more drivers being properly in linux, the dedicated GPU memory is used less and less

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:49 pm

The GPU does not run general applications or processes. Allocating too much to the GPU will hurt more than help.
See: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... /memory.md
Unless specified otherwise my response is based on the latest and fully updated RPiOS Buster w/ Desktop OS.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:23 am

I'm assuming this limitation is one of firmware as this kind of allocation is theoretically possible and already works on x86 systems to share large portions of system memory with PCIe-connected GPU's. Since they can access the memory directly, the CPU is not involved in any framebuffer copy operations which are a waste of time and resources. Is there any plan to implement a zero-copy mechanism on Raspberry Pi firmware?
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:27 am

TheMindVirus wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:23 am
I'm assuming this limitation is one of firmware as this kind of allocation is theoretically possible and already works on x86 systems to share large portions of system memory with PCIe-connected GPU's. Since they can access the memory directly, the CPU is not involved in any framebuffer copy operations which are a waste of time and resources. Is there any plan to implement a zero-copy mechanism on Raspberry Pi firmware?
its a design/hardware limit, that means the gpu can only access the lower 1gig of ram

on the pi4, i believe all of the 2d planes for rendering come from gpu_mem, but those dont total up to very much

it will heavily depend on what resolution of display your trying to drive, and what graphical tasks your trying to do

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:38 am

If a program used 8 GB of video RAM on the Raspberry Pi computer. I would say kudos to the Raspberry Pi Foundation. I'm serious, if the Raspberry Pi computer had the capabilities of moving 8 GB of data. Someone had to program all of these features. 3200 MHz DDR4 RAM is fast. If the computer is not fast enough to utilize the RAM speeds, then filling up the RAM space will take more time. The Raspberry Pi 4 computer uses DDR4 RAM. GPU RAM speeds do not improve performance with graphics rendering. GPU RAM speeds do not improve 3D rendering speeds either. Graphics rendering or 3D rendering is based on the speed of the computer processor, and the graphics processor.

If a program does not have enough free GPU memory, then graphics rendering speed will decrease. If a program did not have access to a certain amount of RAM, the program will be less usable, crash, or even freeze. If the program is running slow, and your computer still have free RAM available. This means the computer hardware you are using is not fast enough for the program. Computer performance problems with software can be solved with updates, and better programming optimization. Even though the graphics processor on the Raspberry Pi 4 computer has support for OpenGL 3. This does not mean OpenGL 3 will run fast on the Raspberry Pi 4 computer.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:22 am

Setting gpu_mem sets the amount of memory assigned to the VideoCore VPU (Vector Processing Unit). That is responsible for codecs, camera, legacy framebuffer, and the firmware GLES driver on Pi0-3. This region has to be in the bottom 1G of RAM.

On Pi4 the V3D block has an IOMMU, so it can access all of memory, and Linux deals with the allocation out of ARM memory. And when using either DRM/KMS driver (which is default on Pi4), the display buffers come out of the CMA (Contiguous Memory Allocator) heap. Again the CMA heap has to be in the bottom 1G of RAM.

Setting gpu_mem to insane figures gains nothing on a Pi4. Setting the combined value of gpu_mem and CMA to a value greater than 1G (minus a bit) will result in a system that won't boot.

It's all in the docs - https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... /memory.md (ack that this has already been linked to)
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:27 am

cleverca22 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:27 am
TheMindVirus wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:23 am
I'm assuming this limitation is one of firmware as this kind of allocation is theoretically possible and already works on x86 systems to share large portions of system memory with PCIe-connected GPU's. Since they can access the memory directly, the CPU is not involved in any framebuffer copy operations which are a waste of time and resources. Is there any plan to implement a zero-copy mechanism on Raspberry Pi firmware?
its a design/hardware limit, that means the gpu can only access the lower 1gig of ram

on the pi4, i believe all of the 2d planes for rendering come from gpu_mem, but those dont total up to very much

it will heavily depend on what resolution of display your trying to drive, and what graphical tasks your trying to do
Zero copy is supported in that you allocate the buffer using DRM or similar. Those are then allocated from the CMA heap, and you can pass them back in to DRM to display them.
There is no PCI-e interface involved in the graphics rendering path. The 3D and hardware video scaler are both AXI masters within the SoC, so they can request data from memory direct from the SDRAM controller over the AXI bus.

2D planes allocated by DRM come from the CMA heap, not gpu_mem.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:57 pm

So it begs the question, on a scalable system, why even have legacy restrictive settings like gpu_mem on the standard image in the first place?
It would be part of the allocation procedure to make sure larger address spaces translate to < 4GB.
(By PCIe I meant it is present in x86 systems. I wasn't referring to the Pi and Raspberry Pi OS which has its own mechanisms for this purpose).

It's good that there are mechanisms like the AXI bus and DMA to make sure the CPU doesn't have to be used for things it doesn't have to do.
(e.g. Kernels, repetitive and Real-Time tasks - the responsibility of a Programmable Real-Time Unit (PRU) as found on the BeagleBone Black).

I'm thinking about the following:
  • How many applications are actually able to make full use of the underlying hardware optimisation mechanisms?
  • Is there a way to temporarily monitor the usage of these mechanisms without affecting performance?
  • Aside from a 64-bit version of the Raspberry Pi OS and Gentoo, is it possible to use a workflow such as Arduino to safely program the Pi?
  • Say that further down the line I have a Pi with 8 CPU cores, 8GB SDRAM and a SoC which had more hardware that required system RAM...
    ...would each additional piece of hardware (e.g. 8K video encoders) be able to access higher portions of system memory with the same address space as < 1GB?
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:15 pm

As with all your posts, it would help to start with a plain English statement of what you are trying to achieve -- practical goals, or barriers to overcome.

In this case, what problem arises from the "restrictive settings"? How does it affect anything you are trying to do with current hardware?
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:34 pm

it's 'restrictive' beacuse that how it started and legacy softhard-ware-things need it. That's why it is there.

As the RPT skilled Engineering team keep at it, more 'things' may be able to move across.

But what I don't understand, is why you need more?
The camera doesn't need it.

I doubt the VC6 can push stuff around quick enough to make use of it either for the display.
The iGPU of Intel are dynamic too, they sit low until needed and then they don't use a lot.

My main GPU 1660 To thing is only 6GB.

What do you want to push around it in that sort of 'GPU or GPGPU tasks?

or are you just trying the learn (as I am)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:41 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:34 pm
it's 'restrictive' beacuse that how it started and legacy softhard-ware-things need it. That's why it is there.

As the RPT skilled Engineering team keep at it, more 'things' may be able to move across.

But what I don't understand, is why you need more?
The camera doesn't need it.

I doubt the VC6 can push stuff around quick enough to make use of it either for the display.
The iGPU of Intel are dynamic too, they sit low until needed and then they don't use a lot.

My main GPU 1660 To thing is only 6GB.

What do you want to push around it in that sort of 'GPU or GPGPU tasks?

or are you just trying the learn (as I am)

Please check the OPs other posts, none has arrived at a satisfactory understanding of the "end goal"
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:48 pm

You need a good balance more GPU memory, and faster GPU clock.

Increasing the GPU memory, has some gains. But that isn't great on it's own.

A combo of memory and clock speed of the GPU can visually improve performance.

I've been able to mod it and push another 5fps out of my Pi 4B 4GB on webGL samples. And this wasn't on Raspbian either.

It is possible to improve performance. You've just got to know what a good balance of settings are.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:09 pm

TheMindVirus wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:57 pm
So it begs the question, on a scalable system, why even have legacy restrictive settings like gpu_mem on the standard image in the first place?
It would be part of the allocation procedure to make sure larger address spaces translate to < 4GB.
(By PCIe I meant it is present in x86 systems. I wasn't referring to the Pi and Raspberry Pi OS which has its own mechanisms for this purpose).

It's good that there are mechanisms like the AXI bus and DMA to make sure the CPU doesn't have to be used for things it doesn't have to do.
(e.g. Kernels, repetitive and Real-Time tasks - the responsibility of a Programmable Real-Time Unit (PRU) as found on the BeagleBone Black).

I'm thinking about the following:
  • How many applications are actually able to make full use of the underlying hardware optimisation mechanisms?
  • Is there a way to temporarily monitor the usage of these mechanisms without affecting performance?
  • Aside from a 64-bit version of the Raspberry Pi OS and Gentoo, is it possible to use a workflow such as Arduino to safely program the Pi?
  • Say that further down the line I have a Pi with 8 CPU cores, 8GB SDRAM and a SoC which had more hardware that required system RAM...
    ...would each additional piece of hardware (e.g. 8K video encoders) be able to access higher portions of system memory with the same address space as < 1GB?
What are you on about? This is word salad, not a coherent post.

In response to your original question, legacy hardware on Pi 4 (VPU, certain peripherals like dwc2, old DMA engines) physically cannot address more than 1GB of memory. Paging memory via moveable address windows is dog slow and nobody considers it a serious solution.

gpu_mem is pretty much a deprecated parameter on Pi 4, and in fact only refers to the VPU's claim on memory space now that the 3D engine can see all of the SDRAM address space and has an ARM-side driver. There's no reason a user should modify it, because the default settings for all 3 of the shipped firmware variants (regular, cutdown, camera-enabled) suffice.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:07 pm

TheMindVirus is asking, does adjusting GPU memory to 4 GB equals 4 GB of GPU RAM? Even if you have access to 4 GB of GPU memory, what program will use 4 GB of GPU memory? I can imagine a scenario where you were designing a map full of buildings, and textures in a 3D modeling program. You would need access to more RAM. I saw a video on YouTube that involved the Raspberry Pi 4 8 GB model using GIMP image editor. Even GIMP editing a 4K picture on a Raspberry Pi 4 computer did not use 8 GB of RAM. Here is what I know about graphics engines on the Raspberry Pi computer. The graphics engine needs to be usable on ARM computers.

Even if you find a graphics engine for Linux OS, this graphics engine is intended for X86 or X64 computers. You run the Quake Engine using OpenGL on the Raspberry Pi computer. The Quake engine will use less than 128 MB of GPU memory, probably 32 MB of GPU memory. Even after the hardware on the Raspberry Pi computer improves, does not mean software will utilize the additional hardware. That is the real limitation of open source software. Most open source software involves software that was released over 20 years ago. The computer hardware standard from the early 2000's is completely different from the present times. The maximum GPU memory split on the Raspberry Pi 4 computer is 944 MB.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:26 pm

OK, so the problem here is that both Mindvirus and Moonmarch do not know how the 'GPU' on the Pi works.

Basically, NOT like an Intel GPU which is what they appear to think.

So throw away any thoughts on it being even remotely similar to an Intel/Nvidia etc GPU.

The term GPU in OUR case refers to the vector/scaler CPU, the Quad CPU's, the 3D HW blocks, the ISP, the display HW blocks, CODEC blocks etc. Everything that isn't ARM.

The vector/scaler CPU (Its a twin core) can access the first 1GB of RAM, but really don't need that much memory. It controls the rest of the HW blocks - the ones that are not controlled by the ARM. So on older PI's almost all the HW blocks are controlled by the FIRMWARE running on the vector/scaler units. With the Pi4, the 3D is now controlled by the ARM - the so called FKMS driver. However the firmware still controls the display. In KMS, the ARM also handles the display, and with libcamera, the ISP as well is controlled by the ARM. As each of these HW blocks control is moved to the ARM over time, the vector/scaler units require less RAM, so the gpu_memory split can be lower.

A minimal headless system only needs about 16MB of RAM allocated to the 'gpu' - even on the older devices, because you are not using the 3D, is ISP etc.

Cannot believe I typed all that it - its been well known for years how this all bolts together.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:27 pm

Moonmarch wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:07 pm
TheMindVirus is asking, does adjusting GPU memory to 4 GB equals 4 GB of GPU RAM? Even if you have access to 4 GB of GPU memory, what program will use 4 GB of GPU memory? I can imagine a scenario where you were designing a map full of buildings, and textures in a 3D modeling program. You would need access to more RAM. I saw a video on YouTube that involved the Raspberry Pi 4 8 GB model using GIMP image editor. Even GIMP editing a 4K picture on a Raspberry Pi 4 computer did not use 8 GB of RAM. Here is what I know about graphics engines on the Raspberry Pi computer. The graphics engine needs to be usable on ARM computers.

Even if you find a graphics engine for Linux OS, this graphics engine is intended for X86 or X64 computers. You run the Quake Engine using OpenGL on the Raspberry Pi computer. The Quake engine will use less than 128 MB of GPU memory, probably 32 MB of GPU memory. Even after the hardware on the Raspberry Pi computer improves, does not mean software will utilize the additional hardware. That is the real limitation of open source software. Most open source software involves software that was released over 20 years ago. The computer hardware standard from the early 2000's is completely different from the present times. The maximum GPU memory split on the Raspberry Pi 4 computer is 944 MB.
In short, this post is entirely nonsense. You are not doing yourself, or anyone else, any favours with these stream of consciousness postings. Please make sure you have your facts straight.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:31 pm

TheMindVirus wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:57 pm
  • Aside from a 64-bit version of the Raspberry Pi OS and Gentoo, is it possible to use a workflow such as Arduino to safely program the Pi?
I'm not entirely sure what that means.

If you are asking is it possible to program the GPU of a Pi using an Arduino IDE; the answer is yes. But I doubt the software stack currently exists for doing that. It shouldn't be too hard to create for someone with experience of what needs to be done, and might not be that hard to figure out.

But whether that would do whatever it is you are hoping for I have no idea.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:52 pm

Here is what I know about OpenGL on the Raspberry Pi computer. Eric Anholt developed the OpenGL drivers for Raspberry Pi computer. Eventually Eric Anholt was replaced by a team developing the Vulkan drivers for the Raspberry Pi computers. Here is a link to the article on the raspberrypi.org website:

VC4 and V3D OpenGL drivers for Raspberry Pi: an update
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/vc4-an ... an-update/

Before the OpenGL drivers were released on the Raspberry Pi computer. I don't know what was graphic libraries were being used to be honest with everyone. When you load a game on the Raspberry Pi computer. Let's say I started up OpenArena, you will see your GPU information.

Here is a picture of a Doom Engine map editor program:

Image
GZDoom Builder 2.3

Call me crazy, go ahead. I see the source code of user made maps released by the author of the mod. These maps are huge, involves many geometries. You runs these mods using a source port of a game. For example GZDoom is used to run Doom 1993 engine games. There are maps that are real intricate in design. I'm going to say the maps take a long time to build, perhaps years who knows. Running certain Doom mods using the GZDoom program will require a fast computer. Editing the map of the Doom mod will require even more computer resources. I don't know if that made sense to anyone, I at least understand the context.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:05 pm

Moonmarch wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:52 pm
Here is what I know about OpenGL on the Raspberry Pi computer. Eric Anholt developed the OpenGL drivers for Raspberry Pi computer. Eventually Eric Anholt was replaced by a team developing the Vulkan drivers for the Raspberry Pi computers. Here is a link to the article on the raspberrypi.org website:

VC4 and V3D OpenGL drivers for Raspberry Pi: an update
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/vc4-an ... an-update/

Before the OpenGL drivers were released on the Raspberry Pi computer. I don't know what was graphic libraries were being used to be honest with everyone. When you load a game on the Raspberry Pi computer. Let's say I started up OpenArena, you will see your GPU information.

Here is a picture of a Doom Engine map editor program:

Image
GZDoom Builder 2.3

Call me crazy, go ahead. I see the source code of user made maps released by the author of the mod. These maps are huge, involves many geometries. You runs these mods using a source port of a game. For example GZDoom is used to run Doom 1993 engine games. There are maps that are real intricate in design. I'm going to say the maps take a long time to build, perhaps years who knows. Running certain Doom mods using the GZDoom program will require a fast computer. Editing the map of the Doom mod will require even more computer resources. I don't know if that made sense to anyone, I at least understand the context.
None of which is related in any way with the topic of this thread. Even the bits that are vaguely correct
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:39 pm

None of which is related in any way with the topic of this thread. Even the bits that are vaguely correct
I'm not sure what planet some of us are on but I think it's absolutely related to the topic.
It's a demonstration of the type of memory-intensive workload that some Linux ARM apps demand otherwise they simply will not be used.
You've released an 8GB Raspberry Pi, the latter portion of which can't be used for anything useful, so why should I buy it?

I've spoken perfect English and used correct technical terminology for the devices I am referencing.
Your lack of understanding and co-operation has offended me so far in this thread and I don't think future generations will be impressed either.

To conclude the thread, my question has been answered in that "gpu_mem" shouldn't exist and the Image is in dire need of a 64-bit update.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 8GB GPU Memory Split

Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:47 pm

If you're not going to bother spending time reading and understanding the responses provided to you in this thread by engineers that absolutely *do* know what they're talking about, don't be surprised if your thread gets locked.
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