jamesh
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 3:51 pm

mikerr wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Will the x86 version join the party?

The mouthful "Debian with raspberry pi desktop" becomes

Raspberry Pi OS for PC ?
Raspberry Pi OS x86 ?
I've asked, but nothing concrete on that one.
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W. H. Heydt
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 4:40 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:45 pm
trejan wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:37 pm
It does make sense IMO but you need to know how it is built. What everybody has been downloading as "Raspbian" from raspberrypi.org/downloads has been a modified version of Raspbian. Those modified builds are now called Raspberry Pi OS. As plugwash stated in that post, the 32-bit version continues to based on Raspbian but the new 64-bit version is based on Debian.
It makes even less sense to me as people try to explain it more.

So now we have two operating systems with the same name "Raspberry Pi OS". One is derived from Raspbian and the other is derived from Debian.

No room for confusion there.
In general: RPiOS. In specific: RPiOS32 and RPiOS64.

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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 4:44 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:19 pm
And humans are derived from morganucodontids along with all other mammals.
Welll.... Yeah.... If you go back far enough. In that sense, RPiOS (both versions) derive from the GNU and Linux. (I'm tempted to say Bell Labs and unix...)

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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 5:46 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:51 pm
mikerr wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Will the x86 version join the party?

The mouthful "Debian with raspberry pi desktop" becomes

Raspberry Pi OS for PC ?
Raspberry Pi OS x86 ?
I've asked, but nothing concrete on that one.
ConcreteOS?
'What's in a name?' said Shakespeare. 'The rose by any other name would smell as sweet.' 'Oh no it wouldn't,' said Mr Leakey. 'Not if it were called the Lesser Stinkwort, or the Fish-and-chips-flower. Names matter more than you think.
("My Friend Mr Leakey" by JBS Haldane, 1937. I lost my copy many years ago, much to my regret.)
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bjtheone
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 6:08 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:23 pm
Heater wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:45 pm
trejan wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:37 pm
It does make sense IMO but you need to know how it is built. What everybody has been downloading as "Raspbian" from raspberrypi.org/downloads has been a modified version of Raspbian. Those modified builds are now called Raspberry Pi OS. As plugwash stated in that post, the 32-bit version continues to based on Raspbian but the new 64-bit version is based on Debian.
It makes even less sense to me as people try to explain it more.

So now we have two operating systems with the same name "Raspberry Pi OS". One is derived from Raspbian and the other is derived from Debian.

No room for confusion there.
Raspberry Pi OS 32bit
Raspberry Pi OS 64bit

The end bits should be the giveaway.

Most questions are unrelated to the bit depth of the OS (we aim that they are functionally equivalent), so just use Raspberry Pi OS in those cases.
Respectfully, what is on the Download's page is "Raspberry Pi OS (Previously called Raspbian)". Should that not be "Raspberry Pi OS 32bit", if that is the convention you want to adopt?

mikerr
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 7:19 pm

No point until 64bit is out of beta and also on that page
Android app - Raspi Card Imager - download and image SD cards - No PC required !

bjtheone
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 7:30 pm

mikerr wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 7:19 pm
No point until 64bit is out of beta and also on that page
Except that is yet another name change, and given that folks know the 64bit version is out there somewhere, they have no idea at a glance which one the current one on the downloads page is.

jamesh
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 9:18 pm

bjtheone wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:08 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:23 pm
Heater wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:45 pm

It makes even less sense to me as people try to explain it more.

So now we have two operating systems with the same name "Raspberry Pi OS". One is derived from Raspbian and the other is derived from Debian.

No room for confusion there.
Raspberry Pi OS 32bit
Raspberry Pi OS 64bit

The end bits should be the giveaway.

Most questions are unrelated to the bit depth of the OS (we aim that they are functionally equivalent), so just use Raspberry Pi OS in those cases.
Respectfully, what is on the Download's page is "Raspberry Pi OS (Previously called Raspbian)". Should that not be "Raspberry Pi OS 32bit", if that is the convention you want to adopt?
If you follow the link, the next page is very clear that is a 32 bit version. So the top link is just to point you to the page where you choose which bit depth you want (not there yet, only the 32 bit version).
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Moonmarch
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 9:47 pm

I personally do not use the search term "Raspbian" in Google Search. I actually use "Debian," "Linux," or "Raspberry Pi computer" as search terms when I am searching for answers to problems with Linux. I would say people would not notice the difference between Raspbian or Raspberry PI OS. People need a operating system that people would understand, people will use this OS everyday. The OS for the Raspberry Pi computer can be called "HappyRaspberryPiOS: Coconut Flavor Edition," people would still use the OS. The RPI computer OS will have a large user base, with many people contributing to the development of the OS.

When I search for "Raspberry PI OS" in Google Search, I can find operating systems for the RPI computer without any problems. Actually I search for new operating systems for the RPI computer all the time. With the inclusion of official 64 bit OS support for the RPI computer, this will mean more operating systems can be released for the RPI computer. If anyone didn't know RPI computer models 3 and up are compatible with a 64 bit OS. People that use the X64 desktop computers will consider transitioning to the RPI computer, because of the availability of the 64 bit OS. Well you can choose to install either a 32 bit OS or a 64 bit OS on your RPI computer.

Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 10:23 pm

Moonmarch wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:47 pm
I actually use "Debian," ...
That is the road to hell.

After you have been to hell and back you know that Raspbian does many things differently than stock Debian.

Like all the networking and WiFi configuration.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

bjtheone
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 11:09 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:18 pm
[If you follow the link, the next page is very clear that is a 32 bit version. So the top link is just to point you to the page where you choose which bit depth you want (not there yet, only the 32 bit version).
My apologies. Looking at the download page, the verbiage (Alternatively, use the links below to download OS images which can be manually copied to an SD card.) right above the picture lead me to assume that was the "download" button/link.

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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 11:17 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 10:23 pm
Moonmarch wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:47 pm
I actually use "Debian," ...
That is the road to hell.

After you have been to hell and back you know that Raspbian does many things differently than stock Debian.

Like all the networking and WiFi configuration.
Raspbian... the functional Debian specifically for the Pi....

Speaking as someone who has wandered down that road, many times. , backups are your best friend on that journey.

Using "Debian" as your search word when looking for solutions to issues with a Pi is not going to be a particularly happy making experience, as you are going to have to deal with both Debian vs Raspbian issues, and the elephant in the room x86 vs ARM. If you are looking for Linux level stuff like say bash or regex then the entire 'nix world is fair game. If you are sorting out OS stuff, not so much.

Moonmarch
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 11:44 pm

I use the "Linux" search term more often compared to using "Debian" as a search term. If people have a Linux question on the RPI forums, I search for the Linux answer to the problem. Ubuntu, and Debian are similar operating systems, other Linux distributions are usually based on either Debian or Ubuntu. Terminal commands used in Ubuntu should be compatible with Debian, and in theory will be functional on Raspberry Pi OS. Me starting out with the RPI computer, I had to find a way to mount a USB drive. Present times that is not necessary anymore. I always ran into problems with file permissions back then. I would read guides that show you how to mount a USB drive in the terminal, and understand which dependencies I need to install.

With the DOSBox program, DOS emulator, you would need to mount a directory on your computer to act as the C: drive. The C: drive is the home directory, and executes programs in the directory. The D: drive can be the floppy drive, the E: drive can be the CD-ROM drive, etc. If you didn't know how navigate in the DOSBox terminal, you would not be able to use DOSBox at all. The same can be said about Linux. if you don't know how to use the terminal, Linux is going to be very uninteresting. Linux is very open ended, takes a long time to understand. This is effort that pays back.

bjtheone
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 12:30 am

I respectfully disagree with you. My journey with Unix and Linux predates GUIs. I am very comfortable with CLIs. I also spent around 10 years a sysadmin and environment developer for high end cad tools, back when they all ran on SunOS, Solaris, HP-UX or Domain. Perl and shell scripts were the glue that held everything together.Before that I did high speed testing using LTX test heads on Dec systems.

Now I do something different professionally but still play with and use Linux at home. I spend way more time in a GUI than at the command line, when I am doing "desktop" stuff. In the early days the GUI front ends were so limited or just plain non existent you had to admin at the command line. That is no longer true. You can productively use a Pi with only very rare excursions down to the terminal. It is still available, and often more powerful, but is no longer required. I also mentor high school students in robotics and we don't spend much time at the command line anymore.

Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 12:40 am

bjtheone wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 11:17 pm
Raspbian... the functional Debian specifically for the Pi....

Speaking as someone who has wandered down that road, many times. , backups are your best friend on that journey.

Using "Debian" as your search word when looking for solutions to issues with a Pi is not going to be a particularly happy making experience, as you are going to have to deal with both Debian vs Raspbian issues, and the elephant in the room x86 vs ARM. If you are looking for Linux level stuff like say bash or regex then the entire 'nix world is fair game. If you are sorting out OS stuff, not so much.
Yeah, I know.

I started down the Linux road in 1997. I soon learned that anything you read should just be taken as just a hint of the possibilities. In the face of all the growing number of Linux distributions, never mind the changes to software versions and configurations they go through, nothing can be take as gospel truth. Almost nothing that works in one time and place will work in another.

For example, whatever you read about configuring networking in Debian does not work in Raspbian. Why for goodness sake?

Today I find that setting up a read-only root file system as described for Ubuntu does not work on the same Ubuntu one gets with the Nvidia Jetson Nano. Why for goodness sake?

Every time you want to do these simple things you have to start over again.

It's OK. I'm used to it.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 12:48 am

bjtheone wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 12:30 am
I also mentor high school students in robotics and we don't spend much time at the command line anymore.
I'm curious. What actually do you do?

Are all these robots dragging screen, keyboard and mouse around with them?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

scaramonga
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 1:45 am

How sad life has become, when all we can do is moan about a name change? Sigh.

bjtheone
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 2:38 am

Heater wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 12:48 am
bjtheone wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 12:30 am
I also mentor high school students in robotics and we don't spend much time at the command line anymore.
I'm curious. What actually do you do?

Are all these robots dragging screen, keyboard and mouse around with them?
The program is FRC, which is really using robotics as the hook to get high school kids interested in math and the sciences (basically a giant STEM promotion). Every year a new challenged is released an you have 6 weeks to design and build a root to accomplish the challenge. You then compete in 3 on 3 competitions. The foundation supplies and mandates a standardized controls system based on a national semi controller running an RTOS, a fairly tightly controlled pneumatic system, defined motors and motor controllers. You can get a kit that will let you build a basic 6 wheel driving chassis and then develop mechanisms and manipulators on top of it, or start from scratch, staying within the limits of the program. Challenges have included acquiring and shooting all sorts of balls, Frisbees, stacking milk crates on giant balance beams, climbing ropes, etc. Robots are up to around 150 pounds and the games include an autonomous and a user controlled period. Driver' stations interact with the robot over a private VPN on a WiFi network

We use Pi's to run vision systems, for game piece and target acquisition. They run headless, and are tied into the control system, and stream video back to the operator console.

The software teams spends most their time inside an IDE, and the hardware team uses Solidworks for 3D design.

raspipat
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 3:35 am

... Am I in the minority thinking this rename is a bad idea?
IMO - Yes

ejolson
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 5:38 am

raspipat wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 3:35 am
... Am I in the minority thinking this rename is a bad idea?
IMO - Yes
I don't think it's as bad as when someone tried to name the desktop environment Pixel at exactly the same time Google was releasing their first Pixel phones.

Originally Debian was an amalgamation of Debra and Ian, the couple who first started developing it. Similarly combining Liz and Eben could lead to something like the Lizebeno distribution. How's that?

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 6:01 am

ejolson wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:38 am
raspipat wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 3:35 am
... Am I in the minority thinking this rename is a bad idea?
IMO - Yes
I don't think it's as bad as when someone tried to name the desktop environment Pixel at exactly the same time Google was releasing their first Pixel phones.

Originally Debian was an amalgamation of Debra and Ian, the couple who first started developing it. Similarly combining Liz and Eben could lead to something like the Lizebeno distribution. How's that?
More like "Lizben" with that precedent. Or they could name the distro after their daughter...

cjan
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 7:13 am

Q: what is Raspberry Pi OS?
A: raspbian.

hippy
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 8:11 am

cjan wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:13 am
Q: what is Raspberry Pi OS?
A: raspbian.
More accurately -

A : Raspbian plus things provided by the Raspberry Pi Foundation

It makes sense to differentiate what we get from what we would get if it were just Raspbian. Especially when it comes to the 64-bit stuff which isn't Raspbian at all.

The main issues I have with the choice of the "Raspberry Pi OS" naming are that the term is ambiguous, and the continued use of Raspbian with respect to Raspberry Pi OS can be confusing.

I expect official documentation will substitute Raspberry Pi OS for Raspbian as time progresses but there is some way to go yet.

Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 8:26 am

bjtheone wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:38 am
The FRC has never really impacted my consciousness so I just checked it out.

Wow, 150 pound, 6 wheeled robots with pneumatic systems. Awesome.

That is the kind of thing we dreamed about in school back in the mid 1970's.

Now, how to get them onto the command line...?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

jamesh
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Sat May 30, 2020 10:35 am

hippy wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 8:11 am
I expect official documentation will substitute Raspberry Pi OS for Raspbian as time progresses but there is some way to go yet.
The docs repo and downloads page was updated fully on the day of the change. The Foundation stuff may take longer. Nothing to do with me!
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