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Weiand
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Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm

I am brand new to the R Pi's. Currently just have a "starter" kit.

I have the R Pi 3 B + (Raspberry Pi 2017)

The "premium Starter Kit" included:
R Pi, Power supply, HDMI cable, Case, 16GB NOOBS Micro SD card

Seemed a pretty basic start up kit to get the basics to get started.
Granted, still need a mouse, keyboard & monitor to be able to start using it.
I can find "regular" mouse and keyboard fairly inexpensive and are still usable with my desktops so not much of an issue there.
Monitor... Since I figure I will end up with more than one R Pi using a smaller and bigger monitor, thinking about that 7" touch screen first to get things up and going.

Then the questions start that usually can only be answered by trial and error or from those that have already been there.

My mindset is as with my desktop builds. Big case, big power supply, high heat, lots of cooling and fans etc.
This isn't a big huge desktop and sure won't be using a vid card that is 5 times bigger than the R Pi itself.

So then the question. How hot does it get? Granted, what it's doing will be a factor.

For now I am basing "use" on two different applications. The first being just getting it set up and looking at / playing with / learning the OS and the code.
The second being the first attempted project which would be to have it have an MP3 player program on it to play MP3's. Have a sound card added for better sound quality. Add an ext h.d.d. for more storage of MP3's and an ext ROM drive to be able to play cd's then using the 3.5 out jack to connect to ext speaker system.
Which will be put in an enclosure to "house" it all and to give it a "Stereo" look with venting as well as an intake and exhaust fan.
And on / off switch and maybe a power indicator light. A touch screen so no keyboard or mouse needed and can open the player and start stop etc. MAYBE at start / stop / pause button as well.
The size isn't known yet since still in the early stages.
Starting thought is to use layer plates with risers or just risers for each board to help with airflow and to help mount it to the inside.

So with that in mind looking at the issues of heat and cooling.
Do they run hot by nature? Does a big ext fan blowing air over the entire unit cool much more than like inside a desktop case?

Heat sinks... I see a few different brands / types out there. The ones I've seen claim to have a thermal tape, which reviews seem to say it isn't thermal and to remove that and use paste. Doesn't seem like it would stay in place though or stay in place tight enough.

Cooling fans.. again, seen different types and sizes, that would vary per application, but I'm sure there are ones that just work better than others.

Storage... I've got 16GB to start with which came with the kit. I've read where there are issues with it being able to "see" the 64GB SD cards. Could upgrade to a 32GB which for the first project would prob be more than enough space. I believe I read that 4 TB is the biggest h.d.d. that it would see. So then it's an issue of if can bypass the SD card and boot and run from an ext h.d.d.. Again, I'm brand new to the R Pi and don't have all the parts yet to start boot up. I did read what to me seems like once the initial install / start up the SD card is "full" according to windows. Which is why it seems I would need the SD card for the OS then the ext h.d.d. to pull the MP3 files from my desk top then have the R Pi OS pull them from there. I'm guessing the MP3 player program can install on the SD card directly.

Then the question of if using the additional R Pi cards or a breadboard for expanding. I'm guessing that can depend on the application as well.

I've still got many more questions, as well still scanning this forum for answers, which is taking a while. There is a lot of info here to sort though.

Getting these first few taken care of prior to buying parts will save a lot of trail and error from those that have done the first few steps already and save from buying the "wrong" / "bad" parts or un-needed parts.

As far as coding... I'll need to learn all over again for that. The last coding I did was in college with VB 6

For getting started, things that make it a bit easier will be much needed during the learning process. Would rather avoid ending up buying the "junk" parts to eliminate those hassles to start with.

Any and all answers / tips / thoughts / input / etc. is fully appreciated. Again, I am brand new to the R Pi. It just seems like an endless amount of potential.
It was broke when I got here...

Puffergas
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:54 pm

My set up is vertical in open air. Running FlightGear the core temp is about 75C. Under throttling temp. Ambient temp about 24C. I no longer use a heat sink. Only tun the fan on if it might be needed. Enclosures can build up heat.
Cooling_fan_Raspberry_Pi4.jpg
Cooling_fan_Raspberry_Pi4.jpg (183.58 KiB) Viewed 645 times

jahboater
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:55 pm

Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm
My mindset is as with my desktop builds. Big case, big power supply, high heat, lots of cooling and fans etc.
Wrong! Sorry.
The Pi uses ARM CPU cores which use much less power than the x86 in your PC.
The story is: when they booted the first ever test ARM CPU, it ran fine. Later they discovered that they had forgotten to switch on the power and it was running off the leakage current from another device. Think cool, silent, and so little power that its never worth turning it off.
Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm
Heat sinks... I see a few different brands / types out there. The ones I've seen claim to have a thermal tape, which reviews seem to say it isn't thermal and to remove that and use paste. Doesn't seem like it would stay in place though or stay in place tight enough.
You could use thermal epoxy, or some of the larger heat sinks are bolt-on so you can use paste. If you use tape, make sure its proper 3M tape.

However, for the sort of light usage you are intending, you don't need any additional cooling.
Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm
Cooling fans.. again, seen different types and sizes, that would vary per application, but I'm sure there are ones that just work better than others.
If you want to play mp3 files, you don't want a noisy fan in background.

I would use the Pi for a period and monitor the temperatures. You will likely find they are nothing to worry about.
If the Pi did overheat, it would throttle back the CPU frequency and voltage until the temp was lowered. You can easily detect if it is throttled or has throttled in the past.
Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm
Storage... I've got 16GB to start with which came with the kit. I've read where there are issues with it being able to "see" the 64GB SD cards.
There are no issues with 64GB SD cards. NOOBs may need to be formatted with FAT32 instead of exFAT. Normal OS installs need nothing special and work fine. (I have used 128GB cards with no problems).

The main filesystem the OS uses can handle 2^60 bytes (1 exbibyte).
Last edited by jahboater on Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Botspot
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:05 pm

Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm
I have the R Pi 3 B + (Raspberry Pi 2017)
A 3B+ is going to be perfectly fine for most applications, but if you want a RPi for a desktop computer - get a Pi 4. Its responsiveness is at least 4x as fast.
Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm
Big case, big power supply, high heat, lots of cooling and fans etc.
This isn't a big huge desktop and sure won't be using a vid card that is 5 times bigger than the R Pi itself.
<off-topic> You would not believe how many noobs think they need a graphics card for their Pi. FYI it's built-in. </off-topic>
Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm
So then the question. How hot does it get? Granted, what it's doing will be a factor.
Raspberry Pies have always been designed to be in an enclosed space with no active or passive cooling.
Take a look at the Foundations official Pi case: Image
Believe it or not, a Pi running in that thing will stay cool. No fan, no heatsink.

I find beginners understand this more easily when I compare a RPi to a smartphone. Small, compact, doesn't need a fan. Also helps them understand why a RPi cannot run Windows. Same processor type as a smartphone (ARM), totally different processor type than a conventional PC.
Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm
Do they run hot by nature?
Usually not, unless you're compiling something (continued high CPU usage), or overclocking (literally running the CPU on a higher voltage to run faster).
If it runs extremely hot (100°C) for no apparent reason, then your Pi is damaged - go get a new one. That happened to me once after I fed the Pi 5.25V (too high) and disabled the overvoltage protection (by applying that voltage through GPIO instead of through the usb power plug).
Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm
I've read where there are issues with it being able to "see" the 64GB SD cards.
Not sure where you read that. On the contrary, my Pi3 was had no problems with a 64 GB SanDisk Extreme Pro. (High-end SD card)
And I've heard of many other folks using 128 and 256 GB cards with no problems.
Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm
I did read what to me seems like once the initial install / start up the SD card is "full" according to windows.
Windows can only see the boot partition of the sd card. Raspbian Buster OS has a 256 MB boot partition and the rest can't be seen by a Windows PC. If you just want to play MP3s, I can't imagine why that wouldn't easily fit on a SD card. After all, a single CD (0.8 GB) can hold around 8 hours of MP3 songs. So I can't imagine you needing a 4TB (4000 GB) hard drive to store the MP3s.
Want to make your own Raspbian image?
  • Hard way: Mess with confusing terminal commands.
  • Easy way: Let Pi-Power-Tools do it all for you!
Boot your image in a VM, Flash from the Internet at top speed, Mount (to drop files in), Edit partitions, Shrink/Expand, Repair, and more. Enjoy! :)
https://github.com/Botspot/Pi-Power-Tools

achrn
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:08 pm

I'll answer some of your questions:

1: Pi 3B doesn't run hot. As long as your case has some slots / cutouts for convection cooling at most you'll need a little stcik-on heatsink, and you probably don't need that (none of my Pi3B doing digital signage stuffed down teh back of TVs have any additional cooling). A Pi will throttle itself before it damages itself due to heat, so use with nothing and see how it goes.

2: Don't use the on-board 3.5mm. There is a I2S (ie digital) output available on the header pins, so you connect a DAC to that and get potentially very good sound quality (obviosuly depending on how good your DAC is). There are lots of add-on boards that do the job.

Here's a basic one I've used when I only wanted portable radio type quality: https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/adaf ... i-mini-kit

My listening-to-music system is built around one of the boards from here: http://iqaudio.co.uk/9-audio

3: Easiest HDD solution is an external portable USB HDD. Not the highest performance though. Note that Pi 3 is 'only' USB2, so factor that in when thinking about speed on and off disk (i.e. there's no need for a super-fast disk becasue the USB won't saturate it). Do you really anticipate wanting 4TB of MP3s?

You coudl also stream teh music off a file server elsewhere on your network. That's what I do, which keeps teh player box small (it can hide behind a speaker, and my speakers are small) and also avoids fan noise. Fan noise is bad.

jahboater
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:11 pm

To the OP:

You have a lot of questions and I suspect you might be "other-thinking" it.

My suggestion is to just boot it up and use it!!!!!

Have fun learning!
"We are in the beginning of a mass extinction, and all you can talk
about is money and fairy tales of eternal economic growth."
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PhatFil
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:19 pm

Have you considered running your pi headless? you can connect to the shell via ssh or the desktop via VNC. so no need for a dedicated screen and keyboard.. Can get you started with your pi quicker ;) You only need drop an empty file named "ssh" into the boot partition of your pi sd card to enable ssh coms then you can ssh into the pi run the command "sudo raspi-config" to enable the VNC server and provide you with remote desktop access

your Pi3B+ shouldn't get too hot the Pi4 is the 'hot' one.. ;) but if it does it will throttle back and save itself should temps rise above 85c which you will probably become aware of and can address at that point. I doubt you would need take any actions beyond perhaps fitting a heatsink or 2.

A case/enclosure is a good idea especially if on a workbench with stray wires .. avoid accidental short circuits..

Peppy Player is a well documented/supported pi project that may be worth a look for mp3 player inspiration.

your 16gn sd card isnt full, its just containing the 4-5gb raspbian image or perhaps noobs image pre install. if noobs i would suggest strongly just downloading the latest release of raspbian and overwriting it before doing anything else, and once you have run the start up config utility "raspi-config" and set things like network settings and what interfaces you want open screen resolution changed password etc you can also EXPAND the file system this when you log off and reboot the system will then utilise your full sd card and provide you with ample sd card space circa 11gb on a 16gb card iirc..

get stuck in and have some fun..

LTolledo
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:29 pm

For your reference here are some pics of my RPi3B+ setups:

RPi3B+ "bare" desktop setup, with armorcase
RPi3B+ Desktop Setup2.jpg
RPi3B+ Desktop Setup2.jpg (123.62 KiB) Viewed 577 times

and how my typical "loading" of the system looks like
RPi3B+Desktop_vnc_RPi3B.jpg
RPi3B+Desktop_vnc_RPi3B.jpg (233.25 KiB) Viewed 577 times

and below are my RPi setups (RPi3B+, RPi4B-4G) with audio DAC-Amps
RPiDesktopSetups.jpg
RPiDesktopSetups.jpg (195.4 KiB) Viewed 577 times
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
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Weiand
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:46 pm

I was thinking it would run cooler than my desktop, which is a bonus.

Not having to deal with the heat sinks would be nice then. A small intake / exhaust fan in the housing would be simple enough to do and create an air flow. As for fan noise, not too worried about that. It will plug into my 5.1 surround sound system that peaks at 1000 watts. Makes the windows shake, the water in the fish tank bounce and the reptiles look at me like I'm on something.

Bigger SD card usage is good then. One less component to put in, one less thing to heat up.

Getting a keyboard, mouse and monitor on it's way to me now so can start with initial set up and testing. Not having to buy any heat sinks is just one less thing to deal with.

Being able to put it in it's case to get started and not worry about heat is a major bonus there.

Wanting to stay away from the streaming. Just wanting it all on file. I can use my echo dot to stream, which is plugged into my speakers via 3.5 and it shakes the windows and sounds good. Streaming, my play list can change when a song / songs are no longer "free". This way a self contained unit that just needs a speaker and can be used anywhere that has power.

usb 2 & 3 I'm not worried about. Speed isn't really going to be a factor for the things I'll want to do. If I want speed and power, I've an insane desktop that.
I mean yea, I could just buy an MP3 player or a "stereo" but where's the fun in that?

Then if windows only sees the boot, then using a SD card reader via usb on my desktop to transfer the MP3 files wouldn't work...

The link to the speaker bonnet was my basic thought of a sound card. As said, my mind is still seeing / thinking desktop.

Peppy player is noted and will look into that as well.

As far as headless, yea, you lost me there. :p I get the concept of what your saying. But with not even seeing it booted up yet, it's pretty much all foreign to me right now.
You have a lot of questions and I suspect you might be "other-thinking" it.
Yea... that seems to happen a lot. I just like to be a bit prepared, not just run in blind and "let all the smoke out" of things too fast.

Thanks all for the given info already. Has answered some questions as well as given me more insight on the R Pi compared to desktop which I was basically comparing it to via my knowledge.

I'm liking the look of that set up.
I'd like to have a "dead" board for using to make templates and face plates / enclosures so not to damage an working one during the process.
Though I'm sure between now and later, I'll fry one, cuz well, it happens.
It was broke when I got here...

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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:51 pm

I'm posting this from a Pi4B4 that has an RTC and a 120GB SSD attached to it. It is in the official RPF case (i.e. no ventilation). The browser has 4 tabs open. It is also running MariaDB and Apache, though neither is actually doing anything at the moment. The Pi4B has worse thermal issues than your Pi3B+. At the moment, the temperature monitor says 67'C. That's well below the 85'C throttle point.

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Weiand
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:56 pm

Oye! To me then ,that is a cool running machine. I like heat not being an issue like my i7...
It was broke when I got here...

jahboater
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:43 pm

Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:56 pm
Oye! To me then ,that is a cool running machine. I like heat not being an issue like my i7...
Here is a Pi4 4GB outside of a case - no fan.
It is overclocked to 1.8GHz, and this is the log of it running a 215,000 line C compilation with maximum optimization.

Code: Select all

Time       Temp     CPU     Core         Health           Vcore
22:39:28  38.0'C   600MHz  200MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8388V
22:39:38  38.0'C   600MHz  200MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8388V
22:39:48  41.0'C  1800MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8938V
22:39:58  42.0'C  1800MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8938V
22:40:08  43.0'C  1800MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8938V
22:40:18  42.0'C  1800MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8938V
22:40:28  41.0'C  1800MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8938V
22:40:38  40.0'C   600MHz  200MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8388V
22:40:48  39.0'C   600MHz  200MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8388V
As you can see it barely starts to get warm for this large(ish) job.
Throttling occurs at 85C by the way, so you can see that no fan is needed - its not even close.
And that's with a 300MHz overclock (and over voltage)!
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LTolledo
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:48 pm

This RPi3B+ desktop (the first image on my post above) that I am using to post this
is showing 33C on ambient of 20C.
RPi3B+ desktop temp.jpg
RPi3B+ desktop temp.jpg (8.62 KiB) Viewed 496 times
just running Chromium with 10 active tabs
RPi3B+ native USB booting on 120GB SSD
default clock setting
non-RPF PSU, 5v 3.0A
14" HDMI monitor
keyboard and mouse, 2.4GHz wireless type
Ethernet LAN conntection
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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Weiand
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:50 pm

That's like an ice cube!!
Very much other-thinking on my part for heat issues.
My desktop runs in the 30 - 40 c range a bit over idle with insane amounts of fans and huge fanned heat sink etc.

The rest of the "get started" parts will arrive in a couple of days as well as a SD card reader for my pc so I can find and download the newest version of Raspinsomething as suggested intead of using the included NOOBS
It was broke when I got here...

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:56 pm

Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:50 pm
That's like an ice cube!!
Very much other-thinking on my part for heat issues.
My desktop runs in the 30 - 40 c range a bit over idle with insane amounts of fans and huge fanned heat sink etc.
Bear in mind that Pi4B SoC is dissipating--at most--6 to 8W. The whole board, at max load, is only handling 15W. Of that, 6W is available to USB devices and various smaller amounts go to HDMI, Ethernet and GPIO pins. It's likely the cooling system for your i7 CPU takes more power than a Pi.

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Weiand
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:02 pm

Running a 1200 w PSU in the system. I'm sure my cooling system is drawing at least 4 times what the pi even gets.
Guts 01.JPG
Guts 01.JPG (39.05 KiB) Viewed 470 times
It was broke when I got here...

LTolledo
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:06 pm

that's the reason why I avoid x86 based PCs nowadays....

am mostly "armed" with RPi based desktops and servers.

On using a linux based desktop, it will take some time to getting used to it.
but once you get the hang of it.... you'll probably demote your PC for "just for gaming only" to save on power cost.
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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Botspot
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:11 pm

Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:02 pm
Guts 01.JPG
My first reaction: What a waste of power!
My second reaction: I wonder how many RPis could have been purchased with the money spent on that i7 PC... :lol:
My third reaction: Selling that thing and spending it all on Pi4s would probably get you many times the processing power as that i7. :mrgreen:
Want to make your own Raspbian image?
  • Hard way: Mess with confusing terminal commands.
  • Easy way: Let Pi-Power-Tools do it all for you!
Boot your image in a VM, Flash from the Internet at top speed, Mount (to drop files in), Edit partitions, Shrink/Expand, Repair, and more. Enjoy! :)
https://github.com/Botspot/Pi-Power-Tools

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Weiand
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:14 pm

Sure is a lot less in the dollar amount between the two. Not sure I'd be able to not have a x86 desktop though

Yea... could get LOTS of "kits" for what it cost me to build that one.

I will say though, doesn't matter what I throw at it, it runs fast and hard like it's a walk in the park.


Edit...
Ah yes, Linux. Quite a few years back I was dinking with Linux 7.2 on a secondary system until that system had a bearing in the PSU fan seize, over heated, sent a surge through the entire system taking pretty much everything with it...
It was broke when I got here...

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:46 pm

Botspot wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:11 pm
Weiand wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:02 pm
Guts 01.JPG
My first reaction: What a waste of power!
My second reaction: I wonder how many RPis could have been purchased with the money spent on that i7 PC... :lol:
My third reaction: Selling that thing and spending it all on Pi4s would probably get you many times the processing power as that i7. :mrgreen:
First, bear in mind that it is typical to over-spec PSUs (aka run them at a relatively low load factor), so that PC is probably using a lot less than 1200W. Most of the time, it might well be less than half of that.

On the third reaction...you might be surprised at just how much processing power that system has (don't forget to include the GPU(s) ).

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Weiand
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Re: Starting out questions

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:57 pm

Always better to not max the PSU. *nods*

i7-8700 Processor - OC'd 4.4GHz, 6 Cores, 12 Threads, 12MB Cache

Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1660 OC 6G Graphics Card, 2X Windforce Fans, 6GB 192-bit GDDR5

There is some power being put out in the combo there.

Then there is the 64GB of RAM...
It was broke when I got here...

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RaspbianUser1
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Re: Starting out questions

Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:36 am

TL:DR


If your worried about heat on your pi you can get a worst case scenario on heat with a stresser on your pi
first install the stresser by entering this into your terminal

Code: Select all

sudo apt install stress-ng mesa-utils 

to actually use the stresser enter the command

Code: Select all

sudo  stress-ng --cpu 0 --cpu-method fft
just do a CTRL+C to do a keyboard interrupt and stop the stress, it will run for 24 hours otherwise
don't format your sd because someone said so.

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Weiand
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Re: Starting out questions

Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:38 am

That will be quite handy as well.
It was broke when I got here...

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RaspbianUser1
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Re: Starting out questions

Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:42 am

on a raspberry pi 4b I would recommend a cooling solution like a heat sink but on a 3b or anything lower if it gets just take the case lid off :D
don't format your sd because someone said so.

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Weiand
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Re: Starting out questions

Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:45 am

And end result for the project I want, it will be in a "big box" with vent holes / slots and one small fan just to circulate air and help to blow dust out instead of suck in.
VERY different heat wise than I'm used to, making one less thing to have to worry about / deal with.
It was broke when I got here...

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