rjbook51
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Re: How bad/gpod is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:35 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:27 am
60c is absolutely fine. No reason not to like it.
So trying to get the pi4 down to 40c is a cooling pipe dream?
Seriously, some of the stuff I have the poor beasty do runs for hours and fairly heavy loads, so I like 50c better.
Video stuff.

[Still pushing for a cure to powered hub backfeed (why don't they call it power feedback...why the new slang term?)]
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jahboater
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Re: How bad/gpod is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:41 pm

rjbook51 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:35 pm
So trying to get the pi4 down to 40c is a cooling pipe dream?
Seriously, some of the stuff I have the poor beasty do runs for hours and fairly heavy loads, so I like 50c better.
If you can lower the temps by under-volting or similar then that's a good thing and will save electricity and global warming. But DVFS seems to do that for you pretty effectively.

Pi's have an expected life-time of 30+ years and they are tested in ovens at 120C, so longevity is not an issue.

The only real problem is avoiding throttling - which starts at 85C.
60C under heavy load then is fine!
Plenty of headroom.

Try running this for a few minutes or more:

Code: Select all

wget https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ssvb/cpuburn-arm/master/cpuburn-a53.S
gcc -o cpuburn-a53 cpuburn-a53.S
./cpuburn-a53
This is a worse load than you will ever achieve with normal "real" workloads, so if your Pi doesn't approach 85C running cpuburn, you have absolutely nothing to worry about.
Here are the results for my overclocked Pi4 with no fan:

Code: Select all

Time       Temp     CPU     Core         Health           Vcore
14:34:40  51.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:35:40  54.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:36:40  59.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:37:40  61.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:38:41  63.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:39:41  64.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:40:41  64.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:41:41  66.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:42:42  67.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:43:42  68.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:44:42  68.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:45:42  69.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:46:43  69.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
14:47:43  68.0'C  1600MHz  500MHz  00000000000000000000  0.8438V
As you can see the engineers have done a great job with DVFS and further cooling is pointless.

This is the script for monitoring temps, freqs and throttling:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/bash
Counter=14
DisplayHeader="Time       Temp     CPU     Core         Health           Vcore"
while true ; do
  let ++Counter
  if [ ${Counter} -eq 15 ]; then
    echo -e "${DisplayHeader}"
    Counter=0
  fi
  Health=$(perl -e "printf \"%19b\n\", $(vcgencmd get_throttled | cut -f2 -d=)")
  Temp=$(vcgencmd measure_temp | cut -f2 -d=)
  Clockspeed=$(vcgencmd measure_clock arm | awk -F"=" '{printf ("%0.0f",$2/1000000); }' )
  Corespeed=$(vcgencmd measure_clock core | awk -F"=" '{printf ("%0.0f",$2/1000000); }' )
  CoreVolt=$(vcgencmd measure_volts | cut -f2 -d= | sed 's/000//')
  echo -e "$(date '+%H:%M:%S')  ${Temp}  $(printf '%4s' ${Clockspeed})MHz $(printf '%4s' ${Corespeed})MHz  $(printf '%020u' ${Health})  ${CoreVolt}"
  sleep 10
done

LTolledo
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:48 pm

rjbook51 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:35 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:27 am
60c is absolutely fine. No reason not to like it.
So trying to get the pi4 down to 40c is a cooling pipe dream?
maybe am in dreamland already...
RPi4B-buster_panel_layout.jpg
RPi4B-buster_panel_layout.jpg (10.23 KiB) Viewed 974 times
RPi4B-4G_after-Kodi18.3-1080p-videoplay.jpg
RPi4B-4G_after-Kodi18.3-1080p-videoplay.jpg (10.37 KiB) Viewed 974 times
Note that when Kodi was still 18.3 ambient was 27C
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Imperf3kt
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:22 pm

I've pushed a Pi4b below 10°C while in use.
just because you can though, doesn't mean it's beneficial. the extra energy required to keep it that cold far outweighs the benefits.

it'll run fine at 60°C, get it to 50 if that makes you happy, but ultimately there is no actual need to unless you're holding the Pi in your hands.
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X-Gen
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:27 am

To get sub 50C temperatures, you'll probably have to look into an active cooling solution.
The only other alternative is a large passive heat sink, but depending on the case design, temperature you want to achieve, and the amount of CPU load you want to run this thing continuously on, it may or may not be feasible with passive heat sinks alone.
For instance,
I tried this passive cooling:
Image
And while it works really well, under continuous load, the CPU will reach 70C, with heat sink reaching temperatures that are uncomfortable to touch.
Not a case scenario for most, unless you use the Pi as a gaming emulation device. Then CPU and GPU are often nearly maxed out; and temperatures will reach 70C in a matter of 5 to 7 minutes...

On the other hand, this case, with only 1 fan active at 3.3V cools it enough for the heatsink to be handleable, and the CPU to avoid throttling temperatures:
Image

jahboater
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:23 am

The trouble with that case is the large gap between the top of the SoC and the heat sink pad.
Did you use a shim or what?
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about is money and fairy tales of eternal economic growth."
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rin67630
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:01 am

By the way: I have seen a lot of heat sinks for CPU, RAM, LAN chips but barely one for the power supply chip.
According to my pyrometer that one gets hotter than the CPU.
I did not try at high loads.

That one seems to have it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/for-Raspberry- ... 4087087060
Last edited by rin67630 on Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

echmain
Posts: 290
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:02 am

X-Gen wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:27 am
To get sub 50C temperatures, you'll probably have to look into an active cooling solution.
The only other alternative is a large passive heat sink, but depending on the case design, temperature you want to achieve, and the amount of CPU load you want to run this thing continuously on, it may or may not be feasible with passive heat sinks alone.
For instance,
I tried this passive cooling:
Image
And while it works really well, under continuous load, the CPU will reach 70C, with heat sink reaching temperatures that are uncomfortable to touch.
Not a case scenario for most, unless you use the Pi as a gaming emulation device. Then CPU and GPU are often nearly maxed out; and temperatures will reach 70C in a matter of 5 to 7 minutes...

On the other hand, this case, with only 1 fan active at 3.3V cools it enough for the heatsink to be handleable, and the CPU to avoid throttling temperatures:
Image
I have the exact heat sink in your first photo.

No matter what I do the temp never gets above 60C.

Running cpuburn for a half hour or a build of GCC 9.2 from source (a 3 hour job). In either case, 60 was the max.

Of course the heat sink is warm to the touch. That’s the whole point of it.

X-Gen
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:15 am

echmain wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:02 am


I have the exact heat sink in your first photo.

No matter what I do the temp never gets above 60C.

Running cpuburn for a half hour or a build of GCC 9.2 from source (a 3 hour job). In either case, 60 was the max.

Of course the heat sink is warm to the touch. That’s the whole point of it.
CPU burn only tests the CPU. Doesn't test the GPU.
I test in extreme situations, where both are running at full speed (overclocked, +5 on core voltage). Situations you may only see when using the Pi as a console emulator.

X-Gen
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:20 am

jahboater wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:23 am
The trouble with that case is the large gap between the top of the SoC and the heat sink pad.
Did you use a shim or what?
Yes, a shim with thermal grease would be best, but you can also get thin thermal pads between them.
Personally I use thermal pads on the bottom of the board as well. It pushes the CPU closer to the heat sink. The thermal pads offer sufficient cooling (there's <1mm space between CPU and heat sink.

jahboater
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:04 am

X-Gen wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:20 am
Personally I use thermal pads on the bottom of the board as well. It pushes the CPU closer to the heat sink.
That sounds like a good idea.
I wondered about grinding the mounting posts (where the bolts go through) a little to close the gap.
Maybe some grinding paste on a sheet of glass would cut down the posts evenly.

I would like to just use a very very thin layer of thermal grease with some pressure on the top of the SoC, but not enough to bend the board!

Perhaps a combination of pads underneath and some grinding.
"We are in the beginning of a mass extinction, and all you can talk
about is money and fairy tales of eternal economic growth."
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rjbook51
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:30 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:22 pm
I've pushed a Pi4b below 10°C while in use.
just because you can though, doesn't mean it's beneficial. the extra energy required to keep it that cold far outweighs the benefits.

it'll run fine at 60°C, get it to 50 if that makes you happy, but ultimately there is no actual need to unless you're holding the Pi in your hands.
No, I don't lovingly hold my Pi in my hands stroking it, lovingly. I am not that impressed with it. However keeping it at 50c does make me happier.
Though, maybe I could change my setup to keep my coffee mug warm.

You heard it here first! The raspberry pi coffee warmer!
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LTolledo
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:38 pm

jahboater wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:04 am

I wondered about grinding the mounting posts (where the bolts go through) a little to close the gap.
Maybe some grinding paste on a sheet of glass would cut down the posts evenly.

I would like to just use a very very thin layer of thermal grease with some pressure on the top of the SoC, but not enough to bend the board!

Perhaps a combination of pads underneath and some grinding.
did you saw my earlier post here on what I did with that "gap", you'll see an easier hint there....
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Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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jahboater
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:16 pm

LTolledo wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:38 pm
did you saw my earlier post here on what I did with that "gap", you'll see an easier hint there....
You mean the copper spacer?
As long as its dead flat and smooth, its probably very effective.
I just have this gut feeling that two interfaces are not as good as one :(
"We are in the beginning of a mass extinction, and all you can talk
about is money and fairy tales of eternal economic growth."
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LTolledo
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:06 pm

did you see my post on RPi4B Buster desktop panel temp reading I posted again earlier?
that is the result of that setup

I'd like to see you post your temp value
after you've machined the post of your heatsink/cover
and played 1080p 5,1 encoded concert video in either Kodi or windowed VLC, in stock/not-updated/not-upgraded 9/6/2019 raspbian buster.
with a 15-active tab chromium (your choice of news, google map, this forum, etc) in the background
and ambient 27C
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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rin67630
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:30 pm

jahboater wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:16 pm
I just have this gut feeling that two interfaces are not as good as one :(
Please (others and you) don't split hairs!

None of the chips on a pi has got a casing optimized for thermal transfer.

jahboater
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:37 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:30 pm
None of the chips on a pi has got a casing optimized for thermal transfer.
Is that true for the 3B+ and the Pi4 with their metal lids and bonding to the copper PCB ground plane?
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rin67630
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:07 pm

jahboater wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:37 pm
rin67630 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:30 pm
None of the chips on a pi has got a casing optimized for thermal transfer.
Is that true for the 3B+ and the Pi4 with their metal lids and bonding to the copper PCB ground plane?
Yes its' true for the metal lid of the Broadcom SOC which has no narrow thermal bonding with the CPU.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:57 am

rjbook51 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:30 pm
Imperf3kt wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:22 pm
I've pushed a Pi4b below 10°C while in use.
just because you can though, doesn't mean it's beneficial. the extra energy required to keep it that cold far outweighs the benefits.

it'll run fine at 60°C, get it to 50 if that makes you happy, but ultimately there is no actual need to unless you're holding the Pi in your hands.
No, I don't lovingly hold my Pi in my hands stroking it, lovingly. I am not that impressed with it. However keeping it at 50c does make me happier.
Though, maybe I could change my setup to keep my coffee mug warm.

You heard it here first! The raspberry pi coffee warmer!
I would hope you're not caressing it... :?

I had meant something more skin to turning it into a handheld device.


As to the coffee warmer, while you are probably the first to use it for that exact use, I still claim the title of first to use a Pi to heat liquids :P
water and chocolate to be precise. also eggs.
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tushar86808
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:05 am

Gareth002 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:42 pm
Hi. I have heard over the internet that cooling for the raspberry pi 4 is actually getting a bit noticeable, as compared previous installments. i was wondering if the raspberry pi 4 Absolutely needs a cooling system, and if so, how well do you need to cool it?
I'm familiar with making my own wave share gameboys, and that's where my concern comes in. You see, If I made another wave share item with the Pi 4, Do i necessarily need to cool it before attacking the gameboy hat to the Pi 4?

I'll break this down in questions
- Is the Pi 4 cooling required?
- If using something that uses the GPIO Pins, are there effective ways of cooling it?
- Would heatsinks work effectively?
- What happens if I ignored the cooling? I assume it'll damage the board, Right?

I seem to hesitate to buy a Pi 4, I'm unsure if it'll be a good idea for me.

- No
- Yes
- Yes
- No

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rin67630
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:02 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:57 am
I still claim the title of first to use a Pi to heat liquids :P
What about Heater?
;-)

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rin67630
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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:05 am

tushar86808 wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:05 am
- If using something that uses the GPIO Pins, are there effective ways of cooling it?
You can expect that every hat sitting on the top of a Pi4 will be significantly heated up by the Pi and in turn prevent a cooling airflow.
I will surely be an advantage to operate the Pi having a HAT upright on the short side.

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Re: How bad/good is cooling on the Raspberry pi 4?

Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:01 am

I suspect that the OP's question has been more thoroughly answered than would be possible from a random "ebay" comment.
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

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