josk
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64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:50 pm

Hi,

I just bought my first Raspberry PI (PI 4 with 4 GB ram). When I started to googling around I found huge more than 10 year jump to the past. It seems that Official way to run RPI is with 32bit Raspbian Buster distro. As you probably have more knowledge than I.... I want to ask following questions:

Is there real 64bit distro for RPI4 (4gb ram) that supports hardware acceleration on MPV player? Ubuntu? Manjaro?

Is PLASMA (kde) too heavy to run with PI4 (4gb ram)?

Thanks,

-josk

Giga_Pi
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:36 pm

Hi, there!

In case you are still interested...

Manjaro ARM KDE runs perfectly fine on Pi 4B 4GB. Here's a link: https://manjaro.org/download/#raspberry-pi-4-kde-plasma

See what you think.

No idea whether there is video acceleration.

KDE Plasma? A raspberry Pi 2B can run KDE plasma. I'm sure a very fast computer like the Pi 4 can.
As soon as the DM smiles, you know it's too late...

jamesh
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:09 pm

josk wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:50 pm
Hi,

I just bought my first Raspberry PI (PI 4 with 4 GB ram). When I started to googling around I found huge more than 10 year jump to the past. It seems that Official way to run RPI is with 32bit Raspbian Buster distro. As you probably have more knowledge than I.... I want to ask following questions:

Is there real 64bit distro for RPI4 (4gb ram) that supports hardware acceleration on MPV player? Ubuntu? Manjaro?

Is PLASMA (kde) too heavy to run with PI4 (4gb ram)?

Thanks,

-josk
Why not use the very real, and best supported, Raspbian distro? Its 32bit, but you probably won't notice any difference, except everything should work out of the box. The perceived benefit of 64bit turns out to be less important than actually having a fully working and tested and supported official OS.
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sakaki
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:06 pm

josk wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:50 pm
Is there real 64bit distro for RPI4 (4gb ram) that supports hardware acceleration on MPV player? Ubuntu? Manjaro?
As of v1.5.2 (thanks to a lot of upstream work by RPi engineers, including 6by9 amongst others) gentoo-on-rpi-64bit supports the RPi4B's (and RPi3B/B+'s) h/w video codecs via both V4L2-M2M and MMAL endpoints. It ships with a patched ffmpeg that can exploit this (see e.g. notes here) and you can use e.g. SMPlayer to play back both file and streamed (e.g., YouTube) content using h/w acceleration too. Here is, for example, a screenshot showing a 1080p playback of a YouTube stream with MMAL acceleration (per my post here):

Image

Incidentally, yes, this Gentoo image does support the full 4GB memory (on boards that have it!), use of dual monitors, camera module etc.

hth, sakaki

Moonmarch
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:19 pm

If you are asking if there are Linux developers building 64 bit operating systems for the RPI computer then yes there are people developing 64 bit operating systems if you needed features to be added to the 64 bit OS then you would need to wait until the features are released, 64 bit operating systems for the RPI computer has been available since the RPI 3 computer was released which contains a 64 bit CPU the current RPI4 is backwards compatible with 32 bit which is the reason why Raspbian OS is not 64 bit if you needed evidence of a 64 bit OS for the RPI computer here is a link to a article that is about SUSE OS for the RPI computer:

SUSE Releases The First Official 64-bit Linux OS For Raspberry Pi 3
https://fossbytes.com/suse-enterprise-l ... pberry-pi/

Ubuntu, Debian, Linux Mint, Arch Linux, any other Linux distributor can release their own operating system that is compatible with the RPI computer you are not stuck with only 1 operating system.

josk
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:38 am

jamesh wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:09 pm
Why not use the very real, and best supported, Raspbian distro? Its 32bit, but you probably won't notice any difference, except everything should work out of the box. The perceived benefit of 64bit turns out to be less important than actually having a fully working and tested and supported official OS.
I have my reasons:

- I have 4 GB memory and the 32 bit environment only supports 3 GB (don't want to throw away 1 GB memory)
- Now days 32 bit environments are legacy environments. Ubuntu offers only 64 bit installer, Arch dropped support for 32 bit and others are to follow.

asavah
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:58 am

josk wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:38 am
- I have 4 GB memory and the 32 bit environment only supports 3 GB (don't want to throw away 1 GB memory)
- Now days 32 bit environments are legacy environments. Ubuntu offers only 64 bit installer, Arch dropped support for 32 bit and others are to follow.
Your reasons are wrong because of your ignorance of cpu architectures.
Yes, arch, ubuntu, fedora and etc dropped (or are in the process of dropping ) support for _a_ 32 bit architecture, x86 32bit architecture aka i686.
ARM 32 bit architecture is quite alive and not going anywhere in the near future.

Raspbian kernel has LPAE enabled, so you actually do not waste any ram https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 7#p1490486
You still have 3GB per process limit, but multiple processes can and will use whole 4GB if needed.

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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:17 am

josk wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:38 am
jamesh wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:09 pm
Why not use the very real, and best supported, Raspbian distro? Its 32bit, but you probably won't notice any difference, except everything should work out of the box. The perceived benefit of 64bit turns out to be less important than actually having a fully working and tested and supported official OS.
I have my reasons:

- I have 4 GB memory and the 32 bit environment only supports 3 GB (don't want to throw away 1 GB memory)
- Now days 32 bit environments are legacy environments. Ubuntu offers only 64 bit installer, Arch dropped support for 32 bit and others are to follow.
4GB is supported, so that reason is incorrect.

Raspbian is fully supported at 32bit, so is not legacy. We are not planning to drop support any time soon. The x86 distros you mention are irrelevant.
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:04 am

josk wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:38 am
- I have 4 GB memory and the 32 bit environment only supports 3 GB (don't want to throw away 1 GB memory)
I believe Raspbian comes with a 64-bit kernel included now. It is enabled by setting a flag in config.txt
So all of the 4GB is used without LPAE.
The user space stuff remains 32-bits.

Gentoo64 looks good too!

jamesh
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:57 am

Everybody at Raspberry Pi themselves uses the 32bit OS, unless testing the 64bit kernel we provide as a beta. That should be a good pointer.

Although I do have a guitar amp that goes up to 11.
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Giga_Pi
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:53 pm

Manjaro KDE works very well on a Raspberry Pi 4 (speed wise anyway) it is 64bit, and I've been able to listen to music on youtube whilst doing other taks in chromium. It comes with firefox quantum as well, if that suits you best.
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ejolson
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:12 pm

josk wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:38 am
jamesh wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:09 pm
Why not use the very real, and best supported, Raspbian distro? Its 32bit, but you probably won't notice any difference, except everything should work out of the box. The perceived benefit of 64bit turns out to be less important than actually having a fully working and tested and supported official OS.
I have my reasons:

- I have 4 GB memory and the 32 bit environment only supports 3 GB (don't want to throw away 1 GB memory)
- Now days 32 bit environments are legacy environments. Ubuntu offers only 64 bit installer, Arch dropped support for 32 bit and others are to follow.
It's sometimes better not to go on the defensive justifying why you want something. In a human world of compassion and emotion, just the wanting is enough to deserve respect.

Along those lines, I want a software RAID layer that keeps track of used sectors provided by filesystem TRIM information so rebuilding a multiple-terabyte array needs only to sync the sectors in use. Oh, and also a pony.

As for 64-bit operating systems, one of the advantages of the Pi is how its popularity has led to the availability of many independent operating systems. While most purchasing decisions are made by people not aware of this fact, those people often follow the advice of others more knowledgeable. Thus, the existence of independently-supported 64-bit Manjaro and Gentoo distributions are very important, as well as the special-purpose spins of Raspbian.

For a programmer writing code designed for the future, it is important in my opinion to test that code on 64-bit ARM platforms as well as IBM Power and AMD's 64-bit x86 architecture. However, like all other easily-refuted justifications, the simple fact that I want to run 64-bit Gentoo on my Pi should be a reason sufficient for others to respect my desire to do so.

jamesh
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:46 pm

ejolson wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:12 pm
josk wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:38 am
jamesh wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:09 pm
Why not use the very real, and best supported, Raspbian distro? Its 32bit, but you probably won't notice any difference, except everything should work out of the box. The perceived benefit of 64bit turns out to be less important than actually having a fully working and tested and supported official OS.
I have my reasons:

- I have 4 GB memory and the 32 bit environment only supports 3 GB (don't want to throw away 1 GB memory)
- Now days 32 bit environments are legacy environments. Ubuntu offers only 64 bit installer, Arch dropped support for 32 bit and others are to follow.
It's sometimes better not to go on the defensive justifying why you want something. In a human world of compassion and emotion, just the wanting is enough to deserve respect.

Along those lines, I want a software RAID layer that keeps track of used sectors provided by filesystem TRIM information so rebuilding a multiple-terabyte array needs only to sync the sectors in use. Oh, and also a pony.

As for 64-bit operating systems, one of the advantages of the Pi is how its popularity has led to the availability of many independent operating systems. While most purchasing decisions are made by people not aware of this fact, those people often follow the advice of others more knowledgeable. Thus, the existence of independently-supported 64-bit Manjaro and Gentoo distributions are very important, as well as the special-purpose spins of Raspbian.

For a programmer writing code designed for the future, it is important in my opinion to test that code on 64-bit ARM platforms as well as IBM Power and AMD's 64-bit x86 architecture. However, like all other easily-refuted justifications, the simple fact that I want to run 64-bit Gentoo on my Pi should be a reason sufficient for others to respect my desire to do so.
Not sure what point you are trying to make, but not only should people writing 32bit code ensure it works on 64 bit, it would be nice if people also checked it the other way round, But they don't.

The basic fact is the Raspberry Pi trading themselves use the 32bit version of Raspbian. All the development and testing is done in that environment (unless it's specifically development around moving to 64bit) because we still sell lots of 32bit devices. Therefore it's the one that works best. That'll change over time as we move more stuff to 64bit. But it's not there yet.

Feel free to use any other OS you want, we are all about choice. But please don't expect everything to work unless you are using 32bit Raspbian.
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dickon
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:50 pm

ejolson wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:12 pm
Along those lines, I want a software RAID layer that keeps track of used sectors provided by filesystem TRIM information so rebuilding a multiple-terabyte array needs only to sync the sectors in use.
Then you want ZFS, which more or less does exactly that.
Oh, and also a pony.
Can't help there...

Moonmarch
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:11 pm

To see if performance improves with using different operating systems that are compatible with the RPI4 that is how you know if new software or new driver updates are being released from various software developers which will improve the capabilities of the RPI computer if you were expecting all rainbow, and sunshine in the world of RPI computers then that is what I would say is a complete mistake which is what I would describe as being false advertising, anyone can develop their own hardware drivers for the RPI computer which can cause your computer to act different or not be usable at all the RPI computer do not have M.2 connectors, or SATA connectors, or has a power brick the same as office computers which causes people to determine what can be powered by the USB ports on the RPI computer without seeing the lightning bolt symbol if the RPI computer does not meet your expectations then either leave the computer in storage or return the computer to the store.

jamesh
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:30 am

Longest sentence ever. What exactly are you trying to say?
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andrum99
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:35 pm

dickon wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:50 pm
ejolson wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:12 pm
Along those lines, I want a software RAID layer that keeps track of used sectors provided by filesystem TRIM information so rebuilding a multiple-terabyte array needs only to sync the sectors in use.
Then you want ZFS, which more or less does exactly that.
I'm using ZFS successfully on Raspbian Buster with the official 64-bit kernel. I have a script that will get you a working ZFS installation on Raspbian - it builds ZFS modules out-of-tree as both 32 and 64-bit. (32-bit is not recommended for general use, since ZFS is known to have issues on 32-bit Linux).

See https://github.com/andrum99/zfs-for-pi

ejolson
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:06 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:35 pm
dickon wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:50 pm
ejolson wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:12 pm
Along those lines, I want a software RAID layer that keeps track of used sectors provided by filesystem TRIM information so rebuilding a multiple-terabyte array needs only to sync the sectors in use.
Then you want ZFS, which more or less does exactly that.
I'm using ZFS successfully on Raspbian Buster with the official 64-bit kernel. I have a script that will get you a working ZFS installation on Raspbian - it builds ZFS modules out-of-tree as both 32 and 64-bit. (32-bit is not recommended for general use, since ZFS is known to have issues on 32-bit Linux).

See https://github.com/andrum99/zfs-for-pi
Thanks for the link and effort. I've been using BTRFS for some time because it mostly works out of the box, supports snapshots and mirroring but doesn't take a week for resynchronization in the event of a power loss like RAID.

ZFS is interesting. They definitely use it here for file servers, but I've never taken the opportunity to make a very careful comparison between the two. From reading the commentary, my impression is that ZFS requires more RAM because it maintains a separate filesystem cache and huge amounts it you enable online deduplication. If my 4B had come with 4GB, I would be trying ZFS right now.

Back on topic, it's interesting that ZFS requires 64-bit mode. That provides yet more motivation to get the accelerated video drivers working well.

andrum99
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:37 pm

ejolson wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:06 pm
I've been using BTRFS for some time because it mostly works out of the box
I had trouble with BTRFS. After forcibly removing one side of a mirror, it refused to work with just one side, and I couldn't figure out how to get it to talk to just one side of the mirror. I decided if it couldn't even do that, it wasn't worth bothering with. When the opportunity to build a 64-bit ZFS module easily came along, I tried it and it worked perfectly.

ZFS does not absolutely require 64-bit mode, but if you want to use it on 32-bit Linux you need to tune the kernel slightly to increase the amount of kernel virtual memory. It seems that unlike Solaris, which uses virtual memory by default within the kernel, Linux uses physical addresses instead.

I looked at ZFS many years ago when OpenSolaris was a thing, and was extremely impressed.
Last edited by andrum99 on Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

dickon
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:03 pm

BTRFS also had a very, very nasty bug where if you filled a filesystem completely, it would corrupt it badly enough to require restoration from backups... I believe they've fixed that one now, but it's forever gained the name 'ButterFS' in my brain.

ejolson
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:00 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:37 pm
ejolson wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:06 pm
I've been using BTRFS for some time because it mostly works out of the box
I had trouble with BTRFS. After forcibly removing one side of a mirror, it refused to work with just one side, and I couldn't figure out how to get it to talk to just one side of the mirror. I decided it it couldn't even do that, it wasn't worth bothering with.
The only problem I've had with BTRFS is a performance degradation when you make too many snapshots of a subvolume. Of course it helps to keep backups as well.

I think by default BTRFS will not mount volumes from a degraded drive pool. In such cases you have to force it back online, which in my opinion avoids much of the RAID mayhem that results when a drive disappears because of human accident rather than hardware failure.

Still, I think it is a good idea to run different filesystems on separate machines and architectures (like 64-bit ARM) to avoid a monoculture that might suffer catastrophic loss due to the same bug being everywhere (see Azure for multiple interesting case studies).

Moonmarch
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:54 pm

I was comparing a desktop PC to the RPI computer the desktop PC will always be more powerful than the RPI computer that is not the purpose of the RPI computer you can picture the RPI computer being more of a alternative to a desktop PC even though the RPI computer is advertised as being a desktop PC, and some people will be under the impression that you would be able to install Windows then use Windows software on the RPI computer which we all know is not true.

If a operating system did not receive updates frequently then the OS would be empty the OS would be pointless, and people would have to purchase a new computer if there are no operating systems compatible with their computer hardware.

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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:45 am

This view of ZFS from Linus just popped up in my news feed. https://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-zfs/
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ejolson
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:03 pm

6by9 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:45 am
This view of ZFS from Linus just popped up in my news feed. https://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-zfs/
Although Linus doesn't spend much time discussing 64-bit video drivers for the Raspberry Pi, his perception concerning the nature of Oracle as a company is becoming common among software developers. In my opinion, Oracle has lost a significant amount of good will due to the Java lawsuits, the closed again nature of Solaris, discontinuing the SPARC hardware, purchased control over the development of MySQL and a confusing licensing scheme.

From a personal point of view, it doesn't help that I regularly have to use what may be the poorest web interface ever designed by a PeopleSoft contractor.

In a cooperative business environment, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Along these lines, Oracle is likely the best thing that ever happened for Microsoft SQL server, and possibly vice versa. Back in Pi land, one can be comforted by the knowledge that ZFS is not included with Raspbian and MariaDB has replaced MySQL.

Back on topic, will the 64-bit video drivers for the VC6 ever support a CUDA-like programming environment or a subset of OpenCL for teaching GPGPU techniques on a budget?
Last edited by ejolson on Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rpdom
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Re: 64bit and hardware accelerated video?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:11 pm

I disliked Oracle as a company from way back when we were using their databases on Unix systems and the language/locale options included "American" and "American (UK)" rather than "English"

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