jamesh
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:47 pm

PeterO wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:16 pm
hippy wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:55 pm
The presumption seems to be that people buying a Pi will know what it is, how to use it, or will go and find out how to before using it. But that's a faulty presumption.
A presumption based on the millions of Pi's have been sold so far and set up correctly. This is a non-issue !
PeterO
Nearly 30M IIRC, but the point being is there a small significant change that could be made to make it easier to set up? I'm not sure there is, even after asking for more details, still not sure. This is the only report we have ever had on this specific subject, in the entire history of the Pi.
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:01 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:47 pm
PeterO wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:16 pm
hippy wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:55 pm
The presumption seems to be that people buying a Pi will know what it is, how to use it, or will go and find out how to before using it. But that's a faulty presumption.
A presumption based on the millions of Pi's have been sold so far and set up correctly. This is a non-issue !
PeterO
Nearly 30M IIRC, but the point being is there a small significant change that could be made to make it easier to set up? I'm not sure there is, even after asking for more details, still not sure. This is the only report we have ever had on this specific subject, in the entire history of the Pi.
Short of shanghaiing people off the street to test on naive users, I think access to and clarity of set up instructions are pretty good. There is always going to be that residual population that can't figure things out. See jokes about people who can't pour champaign out of shoe with instructions printed on the heel. It's also why the mantra of RTFM has persisted for so long and is used so vehemently.

Heater
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:37 pm

hippy,
The presumption seems to be that people buying a Pi will know what it is, how to use it, or will go and find out how to before using it. But that's a faulty presumption.
Perhaps.

It's polite though. Or should one go through life with the default assumption that everyone is a complete imebcile?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

hippy
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:53 pm

Heater wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:37 pm
hippy,
The presumption seems to be that people buying a Pi will know what it is, how to use it, or will go and find out how to before using it. But that's a faulty presumption.
Perhaps.

It's polite though. Or should one go through life with the default assumption that everyone is a complete imebcile?
I'm not suggesting anyone is an imbecile or should be treated like one, and I don't think providing set-up instructions with a product implies that anyone is.

mattmiller
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:24 pm

TBF to the OP the text
The Raspberry Pi is a small computer that can do lots of things. You plug it into a monitor and attach a keyboard and mouse.
doesn't say to put the a card into the slot (or even to plug in a power supply)

So maybe a small change wouldn't go amiss :)

jamesh
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:25 pm

It's very very common nowadays to forgo printed instructions inside a product box, instead providing links to online instructions. Whilst this may be a hindrance to some, it's clearly better for the environment, and does make the product cheaper, and actually, much easier to improve. We make one change to the website, and everyone gets that change straight away - no need for reprinting instructions or getting out of date in box instructions.

So it's swings and roundabouts. But it does mean the online instructions need to be good, and easy to find. If they are not, we need to know about it. But having gone through the process (albeit from a viewpoint of someone who already knows) , it's difficult to see where they can be improved.
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:26 pm

mattmiller wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:24 pm
TBF to the OP the text
The Raspberry Pi is a small computer that can do lots of things. You plug it into a monitor and attach a keyboard and mouse.
doesn't say to put the a card into the slot (or even to plug in a power supply)

So maybe a small change wouldn't go amiss :)
Where is that text?
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hippy
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:46 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:26 pm
Where is that text?
https://projects.raspberrypi.org/en/pro ... ng-started

But it seems clear to me that's not suggesting it's the be all and end of it.

lewmur
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:47 pm

averageyouzer wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:37 am
Well the documentation I received with my unit did not mention it. I however did not think to look for the official documentation. It may have been clear to ya'll and that is fabulous but I was just trying to help other users that may be having issues. That is all.
Out of the millions upon millions of Pis sold, this is the first time I've heard of someone not realizing they had to put the SD card in the board's slot. Seems nobody else found the documentation to be lacking.

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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:52 pm

PeterO wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:16 pm
hippy wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:55 pm
The presumption seems to be that people buying a Pi will know what it is, how to use it, or will go and find out how to before using it. But that's a faulty presumption.
A presumption based on the millions of Pi's have been sold so far and set up correctly. This is a non-issue !
PeterO
Well, the question asked was "how did this happen', and when given an answer you brush it aside and blame the end user?
Jamesh wrote: it's clearly better for the environment
Not entirely, running a webserver uses a lot of electricity and generates a lot of heat, bad for the environment, much more so than recyclable paper.
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PeterO
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:03 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:52 pm
Well, the question asked was "how did this happen', and when given an answer you brush it aside and blame the end user?
It's hard to see how not reading the readily accessible documentation can be seen as being anyone else's fault.
PeterO
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Imperf3kt
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:11 pm

True, but there still could be improvement, as Jamesh asked about to prevent _anybody_ from missing the guide.

Maybe make the text larger, or a different color to stand out from the rest of the text on the bottom of the box, or reposition it.

Just because this is the first reported case of this happening, doesn't mean it's the first time it's happened. Maybe millions of users do the same thing, then go ask their friend who told them about the Pi in the first place meaning they never come to the forum to tell of their difficulty with first use.
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PeterO
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:22 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:11 pm
True, but there still could be improvement, as Jamesh asked about to prevent _anybody_ from missing the guide.

Maybe make the text larger, or a different color to stand out from the rest of the text on the bottom of the box, or reposition it.

Just because this is the first reported case of this happening, doesn't mean it's the first time it's happened. Maybe millions of users do the same thing, then go ask their friend who told them about the Pi in the first place meaning they never come to the forum to tell of their difficulty with first use.
Sorry but I don't buy it. Look how stories about problems unroll via social media. It only takes one person to post about an issue, and then lots of others try to replicate the issue and in a matter of hours you've go a world wide story. Note that I have some experience in this area!

Has that happened here ?

PeterO
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix. (inserting the sd-card)

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:28 pm

Best place a URL would be a sticker over the SDCard slot - except we'd get folks complaining they don't know where to insert their NOOBS card. Have a "read & remove before flight" sticker and a suitable URL (may work, may get ignored).

The problem is the more foolproof you try to make it, then it's the better breed of fool that defeats you.

How does Ikea do it? They get folks to read instructions - perhaps the answer is to include a bag of two dozen M3 nuts & bolts and instructions in pidgin/muppet chef Swedish.
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:06 pm

lewmur wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:47 pm
averageyouzer wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:37 am
Well the documentation I received with my unit did not mention it. I however did not think to look for the official documentation. It may have been clear to ya'll and that is fabulous but I was just trying to help other users that may be having issues. That is all.
Out of the millions upon millions of Pis sold, this is the first time I've heard of someone not realizing they had to put the SD card in the board's slot. Seems nobody else found the documentation to be lacking.
It's not that the documentation the OP found was lacking, it was that the step-by-step guide on our site was never discovered by the OP. Having URLs on the outside of the box is not 100% reliable, as HIppy found that a shop stuck a label over one of them.

When I got my (pre-release) retail packaged Pi 4, there was a small pictographic card slip along with the regulatory information leaflet inside the box. I assume it's pictographic to avoid translating into dozens of languages, but that card slip needs to have URLs on it somewhere.
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hippy
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:08 pm

lewmur wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:47 pm
averageyouzer wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:37 am
Well the documentation I received with my unit did not mention it. I however did not think to look for the official documentation. It may have been clear to ya'll and that is fabulous but I was just trying to help other users that may be having issues. That is all.
Out of the millions upon millions of Pis sold, this is the first time I've heard of someone not realizing they had to put the SD card in the board's slot. Seems nobody else found the documentation to be lacking.
The issue here is booting off USB. As pointed out earlier it would have worked just fine without an SD Card for a 3B+ and for a 3B after a one time boot from SD Card to set the 'boot from USB' option.

The OP obviously assumed it would work for the 4B, but was wrong on that.

If the OP had used a 3B+ or waited a few months for 4B firmware to be updated they'd have been absolutely fine, it would indeed have worked just how they'd expected, no SD Card required.

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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:14 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:08 pm
The issue here is booting off USB. As pointed out earlier it would have worked just fine without an SD Card for a 3B+ and for a 3B after a one time boot from SD Card to set the 'boot from USB' option.
{...}

If the OP had used a 3B+ or waited a few months for 4B firmware to be updated they'd have been absolutely fine, it would indeed have worked just how they'd expected, no SD Card required.
This is a bad assumption to make. OP's approach would not work for a Pi 1B, 1B+, 2B, 3B or 4B. The fact that it would work by exploiting an incidental feature of a 3B+ isn't an argument for claiming this is an issue with USB boot (or lack thereof). See my last post.
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:27 pm

jdb wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:06 pm
When I got my (pre-release) retail packaged Pi 4, there was a small pictographic card slip along with the regulatory information leaflet inside the box. I assume it's pictographic to avoid translating into dozens of languages, but that card slip needs to have URLs on it somewhere.
It already does !
https://twitter.com/PeterOnion/status/1 ... 24/photo/1
PeterO
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trejan
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:29 pm

jdb wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:06 pm
When I got my (pre-release) retail packaged Pi 4, there was a small pictographic card slip along with the regulatory information leaflet inside the box.
What does the bottom middle pictogram mean? Pull off heatspreader? Chip pops up when it has finished cooking?

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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix. (inserting the sd-card)

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:33 pm

Re-reading the original post it appears that it's quite possible it was not an "official" kit - amongst other things it included a USB card reader writer: "Got a SD card and USB dongle capable of putting the SD card inside of it. "
In part it seems it was that that led to the assumption of USB booting just like the PC's the o.p. was used to. - if such a device wasn't included but a uSDHC card still was then, even without specific instructions, there's only one place said card can be put in!
Trev.
Still running Raspbian Jessie or Stretch on some older Pi's (an A, B1, 2xB2, B+, P2B, 3xP0, P0W, 2xP3A+, P3B+, P3B, B+, and a A+) but Buster on the P4B's. See: https://www.cpmspectrepi.uk/raspberry_pi/raspiidx.htm

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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:37 pm

trejan wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:29 pm
jdb wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:06 pm
When I got my (pre-release) retail packaged Pi 4, there was a small pictographic card slip along with the regulatory information leaflet inside the box.
What does the bottom middle pictogram mean? Pull off heatspreader? Chip pops up when it has finished cooking?
No, I'm fairly sure it means place the board with the main chip facing up.

Never mind the fact that the Pi actually runs cooler with the main chip oriented vertically instead.
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jdb
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:39 pm

PeterO wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:27 pm
jdb wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:06 pm
When I got my (pre-release) retail packaged Pi 4, there was a small pictographic card slip along with the regulatory information leaflet inside the box. I assume it's pictographic to avoid translating into dozens of languages, but that card slip needs to have URLs on it somewhere.
It already does !
https://twitter.com/PeterOnion/status/1 ... 24/photo/1
PeterO
That URL isn't a link to the setup guide. It hits the landing page for Raspberry Pi, and front and centre is the blog (which is by design). You have to go through 2 clicks to get to the generic setup guide (Raspberry Pi 4 splash -> find out more -> get started). Alternatively the banner menu: "Help -> getting started". Including a direct link in the out-of-box stuff removes the existing 3 levels of indirection required to get to a comprehensive setup guide.
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix. (inserting the sd-card)

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:50 pm

Has anyone tested those icon cards on the general population because I'd guess most folks won't be able to make head nor tail of them? What are they trying to tell us? What happened to "human factors" engineering (that we used to do in the 1990s)? I think the Twitter interpretations say it all (paraphrased as "mostly meaningless").

A good URL for RPi4 would be https://magpi.raspberrypi.org/issues/84/pdf (for an English speaking consumer). That may also get folks to take a look at other MagPi current & back issues.
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PeterO
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:51 pm

jdb wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:39 pm
That URL isn't a link to the setup guide. It hits the landing page for Raspberry Pi, and front and centre is the blog (which is by design). You have to go through 2 clicks to get to the generic setup guide (Raspberry Pi 4 splash -> find out more -> get started). Alternatively the banner menu: "Help -> getting started". Including a direct link in the out-of-box stuff removes the existing 3 levels of indirection required to get to a comprehensive setup guide.
Are you really suggesting that it is unreasonable to expect people to be able to follow a couple of clearly identified links to get to a "getting started" page ?
If they can't do that then they really are going to struggle with what comes next :roll:
PeterO
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Re: Pi 4 Wasn't Booting. Here is my fix. (inserting the sd-card)

Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:28 pm

PeterO,
If they can't do that then they really are going to struggle with what comes next
Apparently what comes next is that they want to run Skype or Windows 10 on their Pi. Or so I have read here recently :)
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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