iarpi
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:54 pm

I would like to add myself to the list of people that travel with a pi. Presently it is a pi zero w that I access as an OTG device. In the future when I update to a newer laptop with USB-C, I'll take along a 4 instead. It would be nice if they are compatible with the same cables as the laptop, so all carried cables work with both.

Presently I am at home posting from a 4, accessed as an OTG device, that is connected to a USB-C port on the back of my desktop. Yeah, it was roulette when I bought the cable, but it was a cheap one. The use scenario here is that I need nothing other than the Pi 4 and a USB-C cable, no power supply needed.

I know its a first world problem, but the OTG capability of the 4 is quite cool.

Keep up the good work. I'll keep buying pi's and giving the replaced ones to the makerspace at our library down the street.

ejolson
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:22 pm

iarpi wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:54 pm
I would like to add myself to the list of people that travel with a pi. Presently it is a pi zero w that I access as an OTG device. In the future when I update to a newer laptop with USB-C, I'll take along a 4 instead. It would be nice if they are compatible with the same cables as the laptop, so all carried cables work with both.

Presently I am at home posting from a 4, accessed as an OTG device, that is connected to a USB-C port on the back of my desktop. Yeah, it was roulette when I bought the cable, but it was a cheap one. The use scenario here is that I need nothing other than the Pi 4 and a USB-C cable, no power supply needed.

I know its a first world problem, but the OTG capability of the 4 is quite cool.

Keep up the good work. I'll keep buying pi's and giving the replaced ones to the makerspace at our library down the street.
How do you tell if a USB port on a PC can power the Pi 4B?

chwe
Posts: 147
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:37 pm

ejolson wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:22 pm
iarpi wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:54 pm
I would like to add myself to the list of people that travel with a pi. Presently it is a pi zero w that I access as an OTG device. In the future when I update to a newer laptop with USB-C, I'll take along a 4 instead. It would be nice if they are compatible with the same cables as the laptop, so all carried cables work with both.

Presently I am at home posting from a 4, accessed as an OTG device, that is connected to a USB-C port on the back of my desktop. Yeah, it was roulette when I bought the cable, but it was a cheap one. The use scenario here is that I need nothing other than the Pi 4 and a USB-C cable, no power supply needed.

I know its a first world problem, but the OTG capability of the 4 is quite cool.

Keep up the good work. I'll keep buying pi's and giving the replaced ones to the makerspace at our library down the street.
How do you tell if a USB port on a PC can power the Pi 4B?
as long as your notebook/PC has PD full spec it should be able to deliver enough for a PI (e.g. my notebook can deliver up to 3A @5V on its USB-C ports - soaks up battery time faster but well it's not that such a setup would run for hours normally..). For mainboards just check the manuals.

ejolson
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:35 pm

chwe wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:37 pm
ejolson wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:22 pm
iarpi wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:54 pm
I would like to add myself to the list of people that travel with a pi. Presently it is a pi zero w that I access as an OTG device. In the future when I update to a newer laptop with USB-C, I'll take along a 4 instead. It would be nice if they are compatible with the same cables as the laptop, so all carried cables work with both.

Presently I am at home posting from a 4, accessed as an OTG device, that is connected to a USB-C port on the back of my desktop. Yeah, it was roulette when I bought the cable, but it was a cheap one. The use scenario here is that I need nothing other than the Pi 4 and a USB-C cable, no power supply needed.

I know its a first world problem, but the OTG capability of the 4 is quite cool.

Keep up the good work. I'll keep buying pi's and giving the replaced ones to the makerspace at our library down the street.
How do you tell if a USB port on a PC can power the Pi 4B?
as long as your notebook/PC has PD full spec it should be able to deliver enough for a PI (e.g. my notebook can deliver up to 3A @5V on its USB-C ports - soaks up battery time faster but well it's not that such a setup would run for hours normally..). For mainboards just check the manuals.
I'm I right that this will only work with the 1.2 version?

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davidcoton
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:57 pm

ejolson wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:35 pm
I'm I right that this will only work with the 1.2 version?
AIUI, 5V 3A is the standard for PD with no special signalling, so should be OK for any Pi. The gotcha is that not all USB-C connectors with USB3 have PD, others may be limited to 800mA, which is not enough for a Pi4 or a stressed Pi3.
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jamesh
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:43 am

spooker wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:38 am
Is there an official announcement about the new revision yet?
If anyone has it can you please post some online shops that have it?
We have never made any official announcements about board revision changes. Knowing which shops may have a particular revision is not possible from our end.
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jamesh
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:04 am

spooker wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:02 am
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:43 am
spooker wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:38 am
Is there an official announcement about the new revision yet?
If anyone has it can you please post some online shops that have it?
We have never made any official announcements about board revision changes. Knowing which shops may have a particular revision is not possible from our end.
I would like to hear the people that actually bought the new revision where they bought it from.
TBH, there's no guarantee they will have stocks of particular revisions, but worth a try. One batch might one one revision, another might be different. The supply chain is long and complicated.
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croft
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:23 am

hi
when will the new boot loader be announced and how will it be announced

thanks
croft

fruitoftheloom
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:27 am

croft wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:23 am
hi
when will the new boot loader be announced and how will it be announced

thanks
croft

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/
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jamesh
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:33 am

croft wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:23 am
hi
when will the new boot loader be announced and how will it be announced

thanks
croft
Not on topic for this thread. Covered elsewhere.
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laurent
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:13 am

jamesh wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:43 am
spooker wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:38 am
Is there an official announcement about the new revision yet?
If anyone has it can you please post some online shops that have it?
We have never made any official announcements about board revision changes. Knowing which shops may have a particular revision is not possible from our end.
The foundation has previously made some official announcements about board revisions:
The first model B: https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/upcomi ... -revision/
The Zero with CSI connector (known as v1.3): https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/zero-g ... connector/
I don't remember if there was an announcement for the Pi 2 revision with the BCM2837 though.

Official announcements are great for traceability of your products life cycle. In my company, we use many Raspberry Pis on internal products. We already had problems with the new Pi 2 revision with BCM2837, because one of our tools (a test bench) was designed with the original Pi 2, and some of our subsidiaries ordered a Pi 2 to assemble a such test bench, and it occurred some errors which were difficult to figure out.
We finally found the origin of the problem (the different SoC and run speed) and provided a correction accordingly. We also managed to include some modifications in order to use more modern Pi models and a menu on the user interface to display the board revision.

jamesh
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:30 am

laurent wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:13 am
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:43 am
spooker wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:38 am
Is there an official announcement about the new revision yet?
If anyone has it can you please post some online shops that have it?
We have never made any official announcements about board revision changes. Knowing which shops may have a particular revision is not possible from our end.
The foundation has previously made some official announcements about board revisions:
The first model B: https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/upcomi ... -revision/
The Zero with CSI connector (known as v1.3): https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/zero-g ... connector/
I don't remember if there was an announcement for the Pi 2 revision with the BCM2837 though.

Official announcements are great for traceability of your products life cycle. In my company, we use many Raspberry Pis on internal products. We already had problems with the new Pi 2 revision with BCM2837, because one of our tools (a test bench) was designed with the original Pi 2, and some of our subsidiaries ordered a Pi 2 to assemble a such test bench, and it occurred some errors which were difficult to figure out.
We finally found the origin of the problem (the different SoC and run speed) and provided a correction accordingly. We also managed to include some modifications in order to use more modern Pi models and a menu on the user interface to display the board revision.
Let me rephrase. We do not make official announcements (unless we have a specific reason to do so, i.e. a major change) on board revisions.

I don't buy the traceability argument.
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:30 pm

spooker wrote: The fact that there was a F-UP on the usb specification and the foundation fixed it is a major change that requires an official announcement.
Thank you, but I think we already have people who decide what requires an announcement.

Heater
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:53 pm

@laurent,
Official announcements are great for traceability of your products life cycle. In my company, we use many Raspberry Pis on internal products.
I think if you want an SBC with a rigorous and unchanging specification and/or months and years of advance warning of changes an/or long term supply and support of old versions you need to purchase products with industrial specifications. And be prepared to pay ten times more. There are plenty of such suppliers. For example ISEE offer the IGPEP V2 SBC, similar to a Pi in many ways it has been around since before the first Pi: https://www.isee.biz/products/igep-proc ... pv2-dm3730. About 200 Euro the last time I checked.

Consumer products undergo component and detail design changes all the time, whilst still being sold under the same name and part number. With no fanfare or announcements. One should not expect different from the Pi. It's a mistake to rely on it.

@spooker,
The fact that there was a F-UP on the usb specification and the foundation fixed it is a major change that requires an official announcement.
Nah. Seems to have been a minor error. The product worked as advertised. There are huge numbers of happy customers who probably did not notice it. I certainly would not have.

It's nice that it's fixed but hardly worth making a song and dance about.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:59 pm

@spooker,
The fact that there was a F-UP on the usb specification and the foundation fixed it is a major change that requires an official announcement.
To put things into perspective, this is what I call a major F-UP that demands an official announcement:
https://www.cnet.com/news/is-your-think ... -firmware/
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

ejolson
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:11 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:59 pm
@spooker,
The fact that there was a F-UP on the usb specification and the foundation fixed it is a major change that requires an official announcement.
To put things into perspective, this is what I call a major F-UP that demands an official announcement:
https://www.cnet.com/news/is-your-think ... -firmware/
From my perspective firmware updates are usually minor compared to hardware changes. Especially when the firmware can be updated by the customer without a visit from a field engineer.

At some point there should be an official announcement, if only to counteract the fear uncertainty and doubt that could otherwise linger on indefinitely about whether the hardware was compliant with USB-C smart chargers.

The fact that the new model can be used as a USB gadget while powered from a computer with a suitable USB3.1 port is a big feature in my opinion. Since new PCs commonly have such ports, this would allow a student to simply plug a 4B into the PC using a single cable that provides both power and a connection to log in by means of VNC.

Not only does this significantly cut down on the nest of wires needed to use the Pi, but it makes it much easier to deploy in school computing labs which are already equipped with modern PCs.

With the Pi 3B+ it used to be possible to swap cables about and use the existing monitor, mouse and keyboard in the lab. Recently, many labs around here were outfitted with all-in-one PCs similar in design to the iMac, which doesn't even have a separate monitor that can be plugged into the Pi. This is another reason why setting up power and VNC over a single USB-C cable is so interesting.
Last edited by ejolson on Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

laurent
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:46 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:53 pm
@laurent,
Official announcements are great for traceability of your products life cycle. In my company, we use many Raspberry Pis on internal products.
I think if you want an SBC with a rigorous and unchanging specification and/or months and years of advance warning of changes an/or long term supply and support of old versions you need to purchase products with industrial specifications. And be prepared to pay ten times more. There are plenty of such suppliers. For example ISEE offer the IGPEP V2 SBC, similar to a Pi in many ways it has been around since before the first Pi: https://www.isee.biz/products/igep-proc ... pv2-dm3730. About 200 Euro the last time I checked.

Consumer products undergo component and detail design changes all the time, whilst still being sold under the same name and part number. With no fanfare or announcements. One should not expect different from the Pi. It's a mistake to rely on it.
Thank you Heater for taking time for a such advice.
In fact, I work in this industry and we sell industrial products with our proprietary boards equipped with some famous NXP SoCs.
We use many Raspberry Pis for internal purposes only : customized equipments and tools (like one of our test bench for our boards), POCs and prototypes.
Unfortunately, I wasn't involved in the project mentioned in my previous post, and a lot of time elapsed before I was warned about the issue. When I was in touch, I immediately said that the Pi 2 was a bad choice because of its short life, and although I known its SoC has swapped from a 2836 to a 2837, I had difficulties finding reliable informations on this to expose, like an official announcement.
At the time of writing, the official blog's page product info still mentions a quad A7: https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/ra ... 2-model-b/ (the good information could be found here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... /README.md).

No problems so far, I made all the necessary improvements in order to make our test bench compatible with both Pi 2 revisions, and even the Pi 3B(+) (thanks to conditional config.txt, in part).
Our boss ended up saying the Pi is a wonderful product for one shot POCs and prototypes, but not suitable for our internal tools.
I'm not quite agree with that. Raspberry Pi is not really a consumer product, nor a real industrial one. It's somewhere between those, and thanks to the community, including the Pi staff, every useful informations are there.
Just like any other tool, without knowledge, it can be a mess.

Heater
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:52 am

spooker,
The only people I hear that are trying to bury this major flaw is the raspberry pi engineers
That's all far too dramatic. I don't see anyone trying "bury" anything. It's a well known, acknowledged, widely discussed issue. It's been fixed.

Certainly not a "major" flaw. Rather a minor error. As happens in many products from time to time. The product worked as advertised. Now it works even better. All is well.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

fruitoftheloom
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:13 am

spooker wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:13 am
Heater wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:59 pm
@spooker,
The fact that there was a F-UP on the usb specification and the foundation fixed it is a major change that requires an official announcement.
To put things into perspective, this is what I call a major F-UP that demands an official announcement:
https://www.cnet.com/news/is-your-think ... -firmware/
well the thing is that with pi4 that F-UP was so big that it couldn't be fixed with a firmware update. The only people I hear that are trying to bury this major flaw is the raspberry pi engineers which not to blame are trying to protect the fame of what they have created. This post has reached 10 pages and there are numerous other posts that are discussing this so it is important no matter what they say and an official announcement would be appropriate.

Totally and utterly disagree, if the Raspberry Pi 4B was actually sold with the Official Power Supply, no one would be any wiser.

It is only Power Delivery which is not supported, therefore using a non official power supply is the issue.

:roll:
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Rather than negativity think outside the box !

jamesh
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:35 pm

No-one is burying anything. We've freely admitted there is problem with using PD chargers.
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ejolson
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:43 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:35 pm
No-one is burying anything. We've freely admitted there is problem with using PD chargers.
Are there any differences between the revision 1.2 model and the original one other than the added resistor to fix the smart charging compatibility?

ejolson
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:14 pm

spooker wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:55 pm
ejolson wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:43 pm
jamesh wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:35 pm
No-one is burying anything. We've freely admitted there is problem with using PD chargers.
Are there any differences between the revision 1.2 model and the original one other than the added resistor to fix the smart charging compatibility?
I bet there are that is why I am requesting a changelog for the new revision all along.
I also bet that nobody will officially answer your question.
My daughter used to say that you can catch more change logs with honey than vinegar. Here in the liberal frontier the gaming industry (gamboling and betting) is even bigger than Switch.

https://www.switch.com/the-citadel/

Although it is expensive to house even the revision 1.2 Raspberry Pi 4B in the world's most advanced data-center campus, betting in the casinos and any place else can be even more so.
Last edited by ejolson on Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Heater
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:16 pm

spooker,
...that is why I am requesting a changelog for the new revision all along.
Given that the Pi is consumer product created by a charitable organization at a dirt cheap price I don't understand why you don't understand your request is unreasonable.

Nice if we get it, no big deal if we do not.

If you need revision histories, advance notice of new revisions, support for old revisions etc, etc then you need a different SBC and a different supplier.

For example ISEE will supply you with their IGEP V2 board, much like the Pi but in production since before the Pi existed: https://www.isee.biz/products/igep-proc ... pv2-dm3730

Of course you have to pay for such industrial strength support. That board was about 200 Euro the last time I checked.

In the mean time, Pi works as advertised. All is well.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

ejolson
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:42 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:16 pm
spooker,
...that is why I am requesting a changelog for the new revision all along.
Given that the Pi is consumer product created by a charitable organization at a dirt cheap price I don't understand why you don't understand your request is unreasonable.
I think the idea of a product designed to be consumed and thrown away is in contradiction to the ideals of the green reusable-shopping-bag generation.

For different reasons but with the same result, treating customers as intelligent people who made a good choice in purchasing an excellent product is one of the main marketing strategies of the fictional BARK™ processor with MEOW™ composable attachment developed by the team at the Fido Conservatory of Cooking and Pastry Design.

It is possible the employee tasked with writing an entertaining blog describing the adventure of adding a resistor to the original Pi 4B got caught up with some new project that is even more exciting. Until then, I'm trying to figure out how to get the revised model on my next order, because I want to power it from a PC using USB3.1 power distribution.

Heater
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:17 pm

ejolson,
I think the idea of a product designed to be consumed and thrown away is in contradiction to the ideals of the green reusable-shopping-bag generation.
I did not mean to imply the Pi was "designed to be consumed" like cornflakes or razor blades. Rather it's a question of the standards to which it is built, supplied and warranted: "consumer grade", "industrial grade", "aerospace grade". Whatever.

I have no idea about any "green reusable-shopping-bag generation". I don't get to meet young people much but when I do they seem to be busy consuming as much as we ever did. Even more so as whatever gadgets they buy go in the land fill after 1 year rather than ten or twenty or thirty as it was back in the day.

You do however remind me that I have always hated the way we are described as "consumers" for many decades now. As if that is our main function in life. Our reason for being.

Wasn't there a time when companies had "customers"? Like actual people whose needs one was servicing.

Reality is we are not consumers. Materials are drilled, mined and scratched out of the ground. After some amazingly complex processing and supply chains they end up in our hands as phones, TV's, Raspberry Pi etc. We hold on to them for a brief moment before sending them on their way to the land fill. Nothing is "consumed". It is just moved from under the ground where it was to some other place under the ground. Or distributed into the environment.

It's crazy but that is our purpose in life today.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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