slimplynth
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:50 am

Form Factor?

Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:04 pm

Just watched "We asked our engineers your Raspberry Pi 4 questions.." Youtube vid.. along with other reviews. I can understand the principle of maintaining the same form factor but are there any plans to say double the PCB size.. just seems you could add so many things.. like standard HDMI ports, sata for SSD, more GPIO pins? Am sure others have their thoughts but what if you did just double the size and make an RPI XL.. personally, i think the Pi Zero is my favourite but just wondered, after seeing the explanations relating to the self imposed constraints i.e. size.. why not grow it in size in the future...

Heater
Posts: 14459
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Form Factor?

Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:18 pm

This kind of question comes up here every other day. Generally leads nowhere very fast.

It's so easy to list dream features one would like. It's totally another matter to engineer it down to a price as sometjing people actually want to buy.

Doubling the size increases the cost
Adding connectors and components increases the cost.
Etc, etc.

That puts such ideas dead in the water immediately. You said it yourself: "...the Pi Zero is my favourite".

For me, doubling the board size, using bigger connectors, adding connectors, sata etc, would make a less useful device.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11487
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Form Factor?

Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:53 pm

Heater wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:18 pm
This kind of question comes up here every other day. Generally leads nowhere very fast.
This *particular* premise is, so far as a I recall, very rare, if not unique.
It's so easy to list dream features one would like. It's totally another matter to engineer it down to a price as sometjing people actually want to buy.

Doubling the size increases the cost
Adding connectors and components increases the cost.
Etc, etc.

That puts such ideas dead in the water immediately. You said it yourself: "...the Pi Zero is my favourite".

For me, doubling the board size, using bigger connectors, adding connectors, sata etc, would make a less useful device.
I mostly agree. There are things I would really like to see on a Pi, but won't because it would impact the price adversely. I'm pretty indifferent to the bigger connectors, though full sized HDMI does have the advantage that HDMI to DVI cables are a lot easier to find than micro-HDMI to DVI are. An on board RTC is something I'd like, though the add ons to do that are a reasonable alternative.

SATA...would depend on there being something--preferably within the SoC--to connect it to. Without a native interface, there is very little to recommend the addition.

The one thing I think the Pi4B could really use--(a) would be extremely difficult due to trace routing issues, and (b) will probably be an on-going issue with future boards--would be a fan header to get a 5v pin where HATs and other add-on boards don't pre-empt it.

takyon
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:05 am

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:43 am

I would look into this in the near future:

AMD developing barebones PC kit to take on Intel NUC platform

This should make that larger but still small form factor more competitive. Pair something like the Ryzen 3 2200G or Athlon 200GE with this kit and you'll have a tiny computer with plenty of ports.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11487
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:09 am

takyon wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:43 am
I would look into this in the near future:

AMD developing barebones PC kit to take on Intel NUC platform

This should make that larger but still small form factor more competitive. Pair something like the Ryzen 3 2200G or Athlon 200GE with this kit and you'll have a tiny computer with plenty of ports.
That (like the NUC) is a completely different animal than an SBC. And not just a matter of size, either. Power consumption is far greater.

takyon
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:05 am

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:01 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:09 am
That (like the NUC) is a completely different animal than an SBC. And not just a matter of size, either. Power consumption is far greater.
The animal OP is asking for is nowhere to be found. At least, not from RPT.

As for power consumption, Intel has made 5W, 6W, 7.5W, 10W, and 15W chips for NUCs. AMD could follow suit (ideally with Zen, but they could also release something like the A6-9220C for NUCs). You can also underclock/undervolt to reduce power consumption further.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11487
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Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:18 am

takyon wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:01 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:09 am
That (like the NUC) is a completely different animal than an SBC. And not just a matter of size, either. Power consumption is far greater.
The animal OP is asking for is nowhere to be found. At least, not from RPT.
Agree about the "not from the RPT". As for the underlying idea, the PINE64. It was really a shock when I got one. My impression was "huge", because I was used to using Pis.

fruitoftheloom
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Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:30 am

slimplynth wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:04 pm
Just watched "We asked our engineers your Raspberry Pi 4 questions.." Youtube vid.. along with other reviews. I can understand the principle of maintaining the same form factor but are there any plans to say double the PCB size.. just seems you could add so many things.. like standard HDMI ports, sata for SSD, more GPIO pins? Am sure others have their thoughts but what if you did just double the size and make an RPI XL.. personally, i think the Pi Zero is my favourite but just wondered, after seeing the explanations relating to the self imposed constraints i.e. size.. why not grow it in size in the future...

If you had researched you would of found out that

A) the RPT / RPF never offer a public roadmap of future products.

B) most so called ideas have already been considered by people with a lot more knowledge.

C) yes we have heard these wonder stories before and never any BoM costs have been put forward.
Retired disgracefully.....
......to a more gentile life !

slimplynth
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:56 am

Thanks for the useful feedback fruitoftheloom. :( I'm guessing your forum posts are highly popular and equally as helpful...

Heater
Posts: 14459
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:05 am

fruitoftheloom only tells it the way it is.

Such posts are indeed popular and helpful.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

slimplynth
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:09 am

I'll be glad if I don't get to 20,000 posts in that case.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:17 am

slimplynth wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:56 am
Thanks for the useful feedback fruitoftheloom. :( I'm guessing your forum posts are highly popular and equally as helpful...
Not always, I delete quite a few.

If you have a problem with a post, please use the report button rather than comment on it.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I own the world’s worst thesaurus. Not only is it awful, it’s awful."

slimplynth
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:29 am

I'm torn, do i reply or not, if it were the real world.. you'd just tell someone you were displeased by their words?

Janesh, do you find fruit's words helpful?

Heater
Posts: 14459
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:39 am

It does not matter whose words they are. They concisely state the reality of the situation. Which has been stated by many others over the years.

A) the RPT / RPF never offer a public roadmap of future products.

B) most so called ideas have already been considered by people with a lot more knowledge.

C) yes we have heard these wonder stories before and never any BoM costs have been put forward.

See, now they are my words :)

Think of it like Pythagoras theorem, no one knows or cares if it was actually Pythagoras that discovered it (it probably was not). But it's true anyway.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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rpdom
Posts: 16121
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:22 am

The tone of the words could have been better, but they are correct and informative.

Heater
Posts: 14459
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:35 am

The tone is fine. Sometimes reality is not as nice as we would like. Don't shoot the messenger as they say.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 25007
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:55 am

Heater wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:35 am
The tone is fine. Sometimes reality is not as nice as we would like. Don't shoot the messenger as they say.
I dunno, sometime the Fruit is too abrasive and I have to delete posts. Borderline most of the time, so benefit of doubt is given, but everyone needs to be careful in how they phrase their posts, no matter how many posts they have already.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I own the world’s worst thesaurus. Not only is it awful, it’s awful."

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 25007
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Form Factor?

Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:57 am

slimplynth wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:29 am
I'm torn, do i reply or not, if it were the real world.. you'd just tell someone you were displeased by their words?

Janesh, do you find fruit's words helpful?
You report and let a mod deal with it. Otherwise things go downhill fast.

And most of the time time, no, not really.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I own the world’s worst thesaurus. Not only is it awful, it’s awful."

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