rotation
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What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:40 am

So now that the new BalenaEtcher contains ads and ignores privacy settings, what is a good replacement for Etcher?

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PeterO
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:45 am

rotation wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:40 am
So now that the new BalenaEtcher contains ads and ignores privacy settings, what is a good replacement for Etcher?
On which platform ?
PeterO
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gordon77
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:45 am

I still use WinDiskManager32 on my old Windows PC.

rotation
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 am

PeterO wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:45 am
rotation wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:40 am
So now that the new BalenaEtcher contains ads and ignores privacy settings, what is a good replacement for Etcher?
On which platform ?
PeterO
Sorry, Windows 8.1

jamesh
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:07 am

TBH, nothing as good as Etcher.
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B.Goode
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:08 am

rotation wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 am
PeterO wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:45 am
rotation wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:40 am
So now that the new BalenaEtcher contains ads and ignores privacy settings, what is a good replacement for Etcher?
On which platform ?
PeterO
Sorry, Windows 8.1

If you care about privacy and the like, wouldn't you be running an Operating System which has ongoing support from its supplier/maintainer?
Windows 8.1 falls under the same lifecycle policy as Windows 8, and will reach end of Mainstream Support on January 9, 2018, and end of Extended Support on January 10, 2023.
Ref: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/hel ... s-products

rotation
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:26 am

B.Goode wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:08 am
rotation wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 am
PeterO wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:45 am

On which platform ?
PeterO
Sorry, Windows 8.1

If you care about privacy and the like, wouldn't you be running an Operating System which has ongoing support from its supplier/maintainer?
Windows 8.1 falls under the same lifecycle policy as Windows 8, and will reach end of Mainstream Support on January 9, 2018, and end of Extended Support on January 10, 2023.
Ref: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/hel ... s-products
No new features means no broken things that are tested at the user as M$ is doing with Windows 10. I get security updates though. Next will probably be Win 10 LTSB.

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PeterO
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:35 am

jamesh wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:07 am
TBH, nothing as good as Etcher.
Last time I tried to use it it complained about writing to a hard disk, so I've gone back to good old "dd" :-)
PeterO
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hippy
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:08 am

rotation wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:40 am
So now that the new BalenaEtcher contains ads and ignores privacy settings, what is a good replacement for Etcher?
I am not that fussed about adverts but how do you mean by "ignores privacy settings" ?

There is some discussion on adverts on the Balena forums here -

https://github.com/balena-io/etcher/issues/2903
https://github.com/balena-io/etcher/issues/2599

"We're trying to find a model that justifies us continuing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on development of etcher while keeping it free and open source. We feel that the featured project is interesting to the maker audience (this isn't exactly a McDonald's ad) while helping us at balena promote our other products which are also very interesting to the same folks that use etcher".

I think I saw those 'adverts', just ignored them, followed my usual practice of doing other things while waiting for the flashing to complete. I don't find it a great imposition.

What is more concerning is this -

"We're working on it, both privacy-friendly settings and EU laws compliance 👍 it just requires more time and internal discussions before jumping into implementation"

That suggests that it's not currently compliant with EU law. Which isn't good and may mean the Foundation should not be promoting its use in the EU.


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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:38 am

hippy wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:08 am
rotation wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:40 am
So now that the new BalenaEtcher contains ads and ignores privacy settings, what is a good replacement for Etcher?
I am not that fussed about adverts but how do you mean by "ignores privacy settings" ?

There is some discussion on adverts on the Balena forums here -

https://github.com/balena-io/etcher/issues/2903
https://github.com/balena-io/etcher/issues/2599

"We're trying to find a model that justifies us continuing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on development of etcher while keeping it free and open source. We feel that the featured project is interesting to the maker audience (this isn't exactly a McDonald's ad) while helping us at balena promote our other products which are also very interesting to the same folks that use etcher".

I think I saw those 'adverts', just ignored them, followed my usual practice of doing other things while waiting for the flashing to complete. I don't find it a great imposition.

What is more concerning is this -

"We're working on it, both privacy-friendly settings and EU laws compliance 👍 it just requires more time and internal discussions before jumping into implementation"

That suggests that it's not currently compliant with EU law. Which isn't good and may mean the Foundation should not be promoting its use in the EU.
As far as we are concerned, it is GDPR compliant. And until an actual lawyer says it isn't, that stays our opinion. So far it just been internet commentary from IANALB's. Backroom lawyers are not lawyers and certainly not GDPR experts.

I do take issue with "hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on development of etcher". I cannot see how they can be spending that much money on it - it's not a complicated thing to do. It does one thing, and does it well. But not multiple 100k's worth. The only changes to it are bug fixes AFAICT, the heavy lifting has already been done. Of course, they could be spending money on adding all the advertising features....
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hippy
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:51 am

Thanks I wasn't aware of these issues until this thread was posted and expect I am not alone.

I understand businesses wanting to collect usage data, crash reports, etc, but I really don't understand why they cannot have a 'don't send anything' option and respect that when set.

"No means no" isn't hard to understand.
jamesh wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:38 am
As far as we are concerned, it is GDPR compliant. And until an actual lawyer says it isn't, that stays our opinion. So far it just been internet commentary from IANALB's. Backroom lawyers are not lawyers and certainly not GDPR experts.
Yes it's the age old problem; is it okay because we cannot prove it isn't, or is it only okay when we can prove it is - That's why the FAA said 767 737 MAX planes were airworthy and didn't need to be grounded while the CAA and others were saying they weren't and must be.

I have no opinion on Etcher and its compliance with EU law because I don't know enough about it to judge.

The statement from Balena that they were working on making it EU law compliant suggests they didn't believe it was, but I don't know.
jamesh wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:38 am
I do take issue with "hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on development of etcher". I cannot see how they can be spending that much money on it
That was my immediate thought, though staff salaries do soon add up.
Last edited by hippy on Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

jamesh
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:59 am

hippy wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:51 am

Yes it's the age old problem; is it okay because we cannot prove it isn't, or is it only okay when we can prove it is - That's why the FAA said 767 MAX planes were airworthy and didn't need to be grounded while the CAA and others were saying they weren't and must be.
The burden of proof is on the accusers, anything else is a slippery slope.

Your plane analogy is nonsense BTW, for starters it's the 737 MAX, and there was clear evidence of issues.
hippy wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:51 am
I have no opinion on Etcher and its compliance with EU law because I don't know enough about it to judge.
And neither do the other commentators. This requires legal expertise from a GDPR expert. Not hounding from internet wannabe experts, which is sadly where much of the world is going nowadays.

If/when a GDPR expert tells us this is non-compliant, then we obviously our position will change.
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hippy
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:06 am

jamesh wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:59 am
hippy wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:51 am

Yes it's the age old problem; is it okay because we cannot prove it isn't, or is it only okay when we can prove it is - That's why the FAA said 767 MAX planes were airworthy and didn't need to be grounded while the CAA and others were saying they weren't and must be.
The burden of proof is on the accusers, anything else is a slippery slope.
Others would disagree. Particularly in the EU where a precautionary approach is favoured -

https://www.europeaninstitute.org/index ... n-riles-us
jamesh wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:59 am
Your plane analogy is nonsense BTW, for starters it's the 737 MAX, and there was clear evidence of issues.
That was a slip of the finger typo which I have now corrected. Thanks for noting that.

As to being nonsense; the FAA did make the call that it was airworthy and did not need grounding while the CAA and others had made the call that it wasn't and must be. That is simply fact -

"US regulators, airlines and the manufacturer have become increasingly isolated in maintaining that the plane is safe"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -737-max-8 - other sources available

And that came down to the difference between "is it proven not to be airworthy" versus "has it been proven to be airworthy".
Last edited by hippy on Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Andyroo

Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:18 am

GDPR does not guarantee safety - it gives you a framework for prosecution (only the government and lawyers get rich at that point) and a semblance of security. look into the use of 'reasonable' in contract law and be very very scared.

If folk want to sell your data, they can bury that in pages and pages of legalese (also known as T&Cs) and I bet you will not notice. Apple have six sections on privacy alone and Microsoft had to send a specialist out to help us with their T&Cs more than once (no not licences).

Yes - I use Etcher nearly every day as it works for me (bar from two instances I can think of and one of those was a duff card). If it bothers you that much then use it in a stand alone machine (or VM).

Yes - I do have VMs, fake / multiple email accounts, two factor authentication and other things BUT data leaks - learn to protect what is vital as best as you can and HOPE that companies do the same (they won't but you can hope). So far given the way major companies have handled my data in the past (inc Adobe, Yahoo, Facebook, power companies, my bank, recruitment agencies and at least 11 others at last check) I think the only way I can be secure is to go off-grid.

(Sorry - end of rant)

rjbook51
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:22 am

I am assuming, since you posted this in an RPi forum, you have one. So why don't you try "gnome-disk-utilities", which creates a "disk" app in your menu.? It has a disk image create and restore function built in. Unlike Etcher you might have to uncompress an image first, but that is easy enough. Gparted and Gnome Disk Utilities are what I consider essential utilities.

A windows option is Rufus, or Unetbootin. I still use Etcher, since I don't pay attention to the ads, and privacy in this era is a pipe dream. :D

rotation
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:32 am

rjbook51 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:22 am
I am assuming, since you posted this in an RPi forum, you have one. So why don't you try "gnome-disk-utilities", which creates a "disk" app in your menu.? It has a disk image create and restore function built in. Unlike Etcher you might have to uncompress an image first, but that is easy enough. Gparted and Gnome Disk Utilities are what I consider essential utilities.

A windows option is Rufus, or Unetbootin. I still use Etcher, since I don't pay attention to the ads, and privacy in this era is a pipe dream. :D
Uh, yeah, about that....
See my other thread:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 8&t=252765


:(

fruitoftheloom
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:33 am

rjbook51 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:22 am
I am assuming, since you posted this in an RPi forum, you have one. So why don't you try "gnome-disk-utilities", which creates a "disk" app in your menu.? It has a disk image create and restore function built in. Unlike Etcher you might have to uncompress an image first, but that is easy enough. Gparted and Gnome Disk Utilities are what I consider essential utilities.

A windows option is Rufus, or Unetbootin. I still use Etcher, since I don't pay attention to the ads, and privacy in this era is a pipe dream. :D

Tried many alternatives, despite the "so called" negatives, still will keep on using and recommending.
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:40 am

Andyroo wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:18 am
GDPR does not guarantee safety - it gives you a framework for prosecution (only the government and lawyers get rich at that point) and a semblance of security. look into the use of 'reasonable' in contract law and be very very scared.
As an outsider the EU Privacy laws are rather enthusiastic and their burden of proof rules seem odd. As @Andyroo pointed out, companies can still work around much of the perceived protections since people can waive their rights and the T&Cs in licenses are getting absurd. Beyond that, evil megacorporation can buy the small friendly company that you have entrusted with your data, and then they get access rights to all of said data.

Beyond the legal aspect, what I am more concerned about is large scale data leaks and thefts. A reasonable working assumption is that if you put it online, it may end up in the wrong hands. Personally I am amazed that people continue to use Facebook.

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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:56 am

the best bet is dd
run debian off a usb stick or portable hard drive or dual boot your PC ....


or
dd for windows
http://chrysocome.net/dd

be -careful of it ....
I've not used it in years but it used to be fine

or rufus
https://rufus.ie
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:11 pm

Andyroo wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:18 am
GDPR does not guarantee safety
That is very true, but it does dictate what a business or provider of services must do and adhere to in order to be deemed lawful within the jurisdiction of the EU with penalties and sanctions if they are not.

It is just one of the tools we give those 'rough men who stand ready in the night to save us from those who would do us harm so we can sleep soundly in our beds'.

It isn't an absolute guarantee of safety but it does increase protection against harm and allows recourse when harm is done, when people's rights are abused. It is a deterrent against doing harm.

I don't have any issue with the noble aims of GDPR and similar legislation to protect people. It seem to me the only people who have a problem with it are those who want to do harm or abuse people's rights or want to allow others to do that.

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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:32 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:38 am
I do take issue with "hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on development of etcher". I cannot see how they can be spending that much money on it
They've got a couple of devs, and a team of undetermined size developing the Etcher Pro hardware duplicator. So even if they've got four people at minimum wage full time, they'll break the $100K barrier easily.
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:35 pm

scruss wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:32 pm
jamesh wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:38 am
I do take issue with "hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on development of etcher". I cannot see how they can be spending that much money on it
They've got a couple of devs, and a team of undetermined size developing the Etcher Pro hardware duplicator. So even if they've got four people at minimum wage full time, they'll break the $100K barrier easily.

Balena offer much more than just Etcher:

https://www.balena.io/what-is-balena
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:56 pm

gordon77 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:45 am
I still use WinDiskManager32 on my old Windows PC.
I also give WDM32 my vote as well. Works great for me in copying the Pi's sd card to my PC as a back up image and then also to write images to sd cards. Very simple to use.
Honestly, i've no idea what i'm doing. :oops:

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Gavinmc42
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Re: What is a good replacement for Etcher (ads and ignores privacy)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:10 pm

Every time I use Etcher to write a Pi image I have to go through three level of permissions in Win10.
I am so sick of that.

Perhaps the next version of the Pi Keyboard can be USB 3 with an uSD card writer built in?
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