fruitoftheloom
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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:50 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:44 am
davidcoton wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:05 am
I'm sure RPF will surprise us. I'm sure some will like the surprise, other will carp about it missing their xyz feature.
My best guess -- even the timescale and the model name will be a surprise, let alone the spec and feature set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAn7baRbhx4

That is a mild response, still do not understand that after 3 years the OP has not chosen to read various posts before posting. Google and other Search Engines are such a rich resource....
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:52 am

lowfat wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:26 pm
It seems that it has been two years already since the Rpi Zero W was released.
How time flies.
Is there any word on when it will be updated?
If so what will change?
Will the RAM be upgraded to 1GB?
Will another USB OTG be added?

Maybe you should undertake research before posting in future ??? It has already been extensively discussed.
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:00 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:50 am
jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:44 am
davidcoton wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:05 am
I'm sure RPF will surprise us. I'm sure some will like the surprise, other will carp about it missing their xyz feature.
My best guess -- even the timescale and the model name will be a surprise, let alone the spec and feature set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAn7baRbhx4

That is a mild response, still do not understand that after 3 years the OP has not chosen to read various posts before posting. Google and other Search Engines are such a rich resource....
Mild? The Spanish Inquisition?
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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:06 am

Seeing repeated questions on things which have been answered numerous times, it seems what we are lacking is a FAQ or something which contains those answers, which can be pointed to when a poster hasn't researched fully or isn't sure if what has been said in the past remains true today.

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:08 am

jbudd wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:04 am
mahjongg wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:18 am
Nothing much can change.

Only the current SoC, which has 512K RAM on top (PoP technology) can be used, and 512K seems to be the maximum `that is available for PoP RAM. other RPI socks demand RAM next to the SoC, or on the reverse side of the board, both of which is a no-go, because one would require a much larger board, and the other dual sided soldering.
The current SoC of the zero only supports one USB port, other PI's use an external USB-Hub with ethernet, and it doesn't fit on the zero's tiny PCB.


I don't expect dramatic changes in this scenario, ever....
Thanks for that clear answer with no sign of defensive anger mahjongg.

Mounting the memory on top of the processor is excellent for squeezing the most computer into the least possible space. It's a pity it can't be repeated with more power/memory.
Presumably the soc was designed for smart phones? How long ago? What phone was it used in?

Not making a request for a new machine here, but it would be interesting to see a single sided single board computer to which one could solder sockets for memory and SSD storage.

Yep VideoCore:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VideoCore


There are other Single Board Computers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... _computers
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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:26 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:00 am
Mild? The Spanish Inquisition?
Is that the new market research strategy? I am surprised.
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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:31 pm

rpdom wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:22 am
mahjongg wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:18 am
Only the current SoC, which has 512K RAM on top (PoP technology) can be used
Well, the 512K version must have been very old. I only have the 512MB version ;-)
Oops, well spotted, is now corrected :mrgreen:

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:35 pm

Technocolour wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:43 am
mahjongg wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:18 am
Nothing much can change.

Only the current SoC, which has 512K RAM on top (PoP technology) can be used, and 512K seems to be the maximum `that is available for PoP RAM. other RPI socks demand RAM next to the SoC, or on the reverse side of the board, both of which is a no-go, because one would require a much larger board, and the other dual sided soldering.
The current SoC of the zero only supports one USB port, other PI's use an external USB-Hub with ethernet, and it doesn't fit on the zero's tiny PCB.


I don't expect dramatic changes in this scenario, ever....
As you note, price is kind of a big deal when it comes to a $5, well, anything.
But, this selector notes that the 16 and 32Gb (as in 2GB and 4GB) LPDDR parts have PoP packages available, from Micron. Both which are too pricey for a 5 dollar computer.
Note that the SoC used in the Zero does not support more than 1GB anyway, so these parts are unusable!

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:36 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:26 am
jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:00 am
Mild? The Spanish Inquisition?
Is that the new market research strategy? I am surprised.
Well, the Cray-1 had the soft cushions and comfy chairs.
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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:26 pm

Fear & surprise won't necessarily be the best marketing strategy. As for a "ruthless devotion to the Pope", that's a whole new level.
Note: Any requirement to use a crystal ball or mind reading will result in me ignoring your question.

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:10 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:35 pm
Technocolour wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:43 am
As you note, price is kind of a big deal when it comes to a $5, well, anything.
But, this selector notes that the 16 and 32Gb (as in 2GB and 4GB) LPDDR parts have PoP packages available, from Micron. Both which are too pricey for a 5 dollar computer.
Note that the SoC used in the Zero does not support more than 1GB anyway, so these parts are unusable!
While that's a good point for the existing Pi0/Pi0W, a new SoC would--probably--not have that particular limit. The big trick is...catching a new SoC.

I still don't see something that fits in the Pi0/Pi0W niche having--or needing--more that 1GB RAM. Nor do I see it needing a particularly powerful CPU. The niche being minimal size and minimal power requirements. Thus, I would see a new SoC as having a single CPU core, but the smallest (and lowest power) 64-bit capable. A BCM2711 would be totally unsuited to a Pi0/Pi0W even if it met all the other constraints.

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:13 pm

How about Zero revision with micro hdmi and usb c connectors? I would like updated wifi chip and external antenna connector as well, but that would definitely add to the cost.

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:36 pm

tweak42 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:13 pm
How about Zero revision with micro hdmi and usb c connectors? I would like updated wifi chip and external antenna connector as well, but that would definitely add to the cost.
As I recall, the choice of mini-HDMI was to avoid soldering on the bottom of the board as both the full sized and micro connectors would both require that. The reason for the Pi4B to get a USB-C power connector is that the board needs more current than can be handled through a micro-USB-B connector. The Pi0/Pi0W have no such constraints. There doesn't appear to be anywhere to put the newer WiFi module (which is probably more expensive as well). No Pi has an external antenna connector because that would create major regulatory certification issues.

Sorry to disappoint you, but the RPT has undoubtedly thought about all of those ideas--and many more as well--and dismissed them for good reasons.

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:26 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:28 am
To be fair to the OP, upgrading the Pi0/Pi0W is what quite a few people would like to see. The roadblocks to doing so have been explained.
The arbitrary price goal of $10 for a Zero W is an obsession that most buyers don't share.
When someone orders a Pi they are also buying accessories with it, such as dongles and a power supply, even a case and perhaps a camera module.
It seems strange to obsess over achieving the $10 price when consumer is spending $40 plus shipping, when adding another $5 to fix board issues remove headaches would be appreciated.
People buy the Pi Zero (W) not because it is cheap but because it is small and low-power.

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:19 am

lowfat wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:26 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:28 am
To be fair to the OP, upgrading the Pi0/Pi0W is what quite a few people would like to see. The roadblocks to doing so have been explained.
The arbitrary price goal of $10 for a Zero W is an obsession that most buyers don't share.
When someone orders a Pi they are also buying accessories with it, such as dongles and a power supply, even a case and perhaps a camera module.
It seems strange to obsess over achieving the $10 price when consumer is spending $40 plus shipping, when adding another $5 to fix board issues remove headaches would be appreciated.
People buy the Pi Zero (W) not because it is cheap but because it is small and low-power.
The original object of the Pi0 was: How low a price can you achieve in practice for a working computer? From the RPT, that turned out to be $5.

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:54 am

lowfat wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:26 pm
People buy the Pi Zero (W) not because it is cheap but because it is small and low-power.
Nope, I bought mine because they were cheap and I had limited funds at the time.
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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:11 am

I'm just glad there is no shop I can walk into and buy one close by.
Otherwise I would have dozens by now :lol:

A 64bit dual core low power with sleep mode Zero would be nice.
But it has to be pink with rainbow sprinkles.

I wonder if it could be done with a K210?
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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:51 am

lowfat wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:26 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:28 am
To be fair to the OP, upgrading the Pi0/Pi0W is what quite a few people would like to see. The roadblocks to doing so have been explained.
The arbitrary price goal of $10 for a Zero W is an obsession that most buyers don't share.
When someone orders a Pi they are also buying accessories with it, such as dongles and a power supply, even a case and perhaps a camera module.
It seems strange to obsess over achieving the $10 price when consumer is spending $40 plus shipping, when adding another $5 to fix board issues remove headaches would be appreciated.
People buy the Pi Zero (W) not because it is cheap but because it is small and low-power.
The arbitrary and kept to price of $35 for the higher end models was what got us in to the market leading position we are in now....and we did indeed obsess over keeping prices to a specific set of levels. It has proven to be a winning strategy. Although I would say that Zero pricing is a little different, but obsessing over keeping the cost to a minimum happens on ALL models. Less cost, more profit, more good product.
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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:14 am

jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:51 am
The arbitrary and kept to price of $35 for the higher end models was what got us in to the market leading position we are in now....and we did indeed obsess over keeping prices to a specific set of levels. It has proven to be a winning strategy. Although I would say that Zero pricing is a little different, but obsessing over keeping the cost to a minimum happens on ALL models. Less cost, more profit, more good product.
I really don't understand why you need to justify it at all. Sales and popularity speaks for themselves. :D

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:33 am

Maybe recreate the soc with 45nm is also an option to increase the clock speed instead of the current 65nm. Plus other small things e.g. Wifi ac...

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:50 am

alnaseh wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:33 am
...increase the clock speed instead of the current 65nm. Plus other small things e.g. Wifi ac...
An would you like some whipped cream on the top of your special order?
Last edited by rin67630 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:51 am

alnaseh wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:33 am
Maybe recreate the soc with 45nm is also an option to increase the clock speed instead of the current 65nm. Plus other small things e.g. Wifi ac...
To correct you:
The Pi4 is on 28nm. All the rest are on 40nm.
VideoCore3 was 65nm, but that's not relevant for any Pi boards.

(I don't recall there being a 45nm process node - most fabs dropped from 65 to 40nm, although Intel always seem to do their own things.
Edit: Wiki appears to say there was such a thing - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45_nanometer. I think it's just naming stuff though as it doesn't list 40nm in their list)
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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:52 am

jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:51 am
Although I would say that Zero pricing is a little different...
Zero pricing is a bit extreme, isn't it?
;-)

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:54 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:52 am
jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:51 am
Although I would say that Zero pricing is a little different...
Zero pricing is a bit extreme, isn't it?
;-)
If the price were any lower, it would be possible to include a Pi Zero inside select boxes of Kellogg's cereal.

Image

Do you think someone from marketing should look into that?

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Re: Update for Rpi Zero W?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:39 pm

- contribution deleted -
Last edited by B.Goode on Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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