dickon
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:05 pm

Right. Now we have trivial network booting, I thought I'd just quickly attempt to prove the point I made earlier in the thread: using the Pi Foundation's 64b kernel booting an aarch64 debian. I've booted to an ssh-capable machine (albeit NFS rooted) in under an hour.

Code: Select all

[email protected]:~# ssh pi4
The authenticity of host 'pi4 (172.29.23.7)' can't be established.
ECDSA key fingerprint is SHA256:O5kv0RFk8/zK864PCWrEKD122Fs96a/udJHoXiEnBZs.
Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no/[fingerprint])? yes
Warning: Permanently added 'pi4' (ECDSA) to the list of known hosts.
Warning: the ECDSA host key for 'pi4' differs from the key for the IP address '172.29.23.7'
Offending key for IP in /root/.ssh/known_hosts:44
Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? yes
[email protected]'s password: 
Linux debian-aarch64 4.19.73-v8+ #1267 SMP PREEMPT Fri Sep 20 18:14:38 BST 2019 aarch64

The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software;
the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the
individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.

Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
permitted by applicable law.
Last login: Mon Sep 23 14:52:07 2019 from 172.29.23.201
[email protected]:~# uname -a
Linux debian-aarch64 4.19.73-v8+ #1267 SMP PREEMPT Fri Sep 20 18:14:38 BST 2019 aarch64 GNU/Linux
[email protected]:~# file /lib/systemd/systemd
/lib/systemd/systemd: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, ARM aarch64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib/ld-linux-aarch64.so.1, for GNU/Linux 3.7.0, BuildID[sha1]=c8b6e723dc02ff7ec6ebfa0fb705ad104cea79e1, stripped
[email protected]:~# df -h .
Filesystem                                     Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
172.29.23.1:/var/local/nfsroot/debian-aarch64  135G  354M  135G   1% /
[email protected]:~# dmesg | pastebinit
/usr/bin/pastebinit:42: DeprecationWarning: dist() and linux_distribution() functions are deprecated in Python 3.5
  release = platform.linux_distribution()[0].lower()
/usr/bin/pastebinit:413: DeprecationWarning: pasteURLopener style of invoking requests is deprecated. Use newer urlopen functions/methods
  url_opener = pasteURLopener()
http://paste.debian.net/1102189/

It really *really* isn't rocket science.

I'll admit, I haven't tried to get anything interesting working yet, as I really don't need it. But if you want an aarch64 computer to play with, the Pi 4 will do the job.

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PeterO
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:09 pm

The rant isn't useless if 1 potential customer reads it and it makes them think twice. Disprove what I have written then. Send forth your best deniers and fanbois and we shall truly battle. I await...
Mean whiile in the real world the rest of us are getting on with doing useful stuff .... PLONK !
PeterO

Edit: Thought I better make it clear I wasn't referring to dickon's post :-)
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

jamesh
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:13 pm

johhnylatey wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:59 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:50 pm
johhnylatey wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:17 pm
OP, you are wasting time and effort in a pointless exercise. This forum is flooded with rabid fanbois that would shame even the saddest iPhone queue-waiting disciple of the Jobs era.

The excuses are never ending and the avoidance tactics and user blaming is also sky high.

The Pi4 is a great machine with one of the worst OS's I've seen. Currently battling xscreensaver: It likes to loks the machine, it likes to ask for the password twice, it likes to ignore the setting in config. It's just a royal pain in the arse.

When I discovered that Raspbian was 32-bit I could not believe it. And then for the Pi faithful to chorus "You don't need it" or the Foundation to say "Sorry, we haven't got enough people - so tough - and we have to support older systems... blah, blah blah.

The number of posts Ive seen from buyers of the Pi4 that have realised that they have bought a mutton dressed as lamb is shocking. You won't see many of their posts here though, cause most of them are deleted, banned or ridiculed.

Pi 1-3 were great. 4 is a joke of a desktop computer and don't let any backroom boy tell you other. Do as many have, dump it and get an x86-based one. I have and it wasn't really much more than the 4G Pi4. It runs Mint... end of story.
7 posts and this. Wow. Not going to delete this one, to simply prove that NO we don't delete posts like this. You have to be a real A-hole to get a post deleted, you are just an amateur.

So to deal with your points;

Worst OS. It's basically Debian with a few changes (which make no real difference to the experience of the OS itself), so basically you are saying Debian is the worst OS ever. That's clearly nonsense.

You have problems with xscreensaver. Is that a problem with xscreensaver, or Raspbian? Have you asked for help on here, or posted a github issue? EDIT: Ah, I see you have posted on here, and yet never went back to the post which did have some suggestions to help you. I'm afraid that's your problem not ours.

32bit - well, the arguments for that go back years. You are a bit late to the party, asare most people who think rants like this are worth writing. The arguments are well known, performance of 64 isn't that much better, the support burden for two systems is beyond what we have staff for, and backwards compatibility to other devices. All perfectly valid reasons; you might not think so but you would be wrong. Because, wouldn't we have actually done an 64bit distribution if it was easy? And of course, we are now working towards one, carefully, because it's important to get it right.

We've sold over a millions Pi4, many used as desktops, so again, you are talking rubbish. Some people may well have bought one as a desktop, and found it wasn't powerful enough for their particular task, but right now we cannot make the things fast enough, so clearly a LOT of people are getting on fine. Glad you found a x86 machine to do your desktop work, does that mean you'll not be back, because that would be great. Please donate you Pi to somewhere like a school.

Basically, your entire post is a useless rant, with so many disprovable statements it's laughable. Do you actually know anything about the subject in hand? No, clearly not.



So, would it have been better to just delete your post?

Do it. Delete my complaints as you have the countless others. Call me a spammer all you like, but I am a disgruntled customer who has received appalling customer service.

Yeah, I came back. Gave you one last chance with the OS, but no. I can't even get a stable screensaver!!!!! Even the chap who wrote it has bad-mouthed Debian.

"Glad you found a x86 machine to do your desktop work, does that mean you'll not be back, because that would be great,."

Another fine example of customer service. Look through my posts. I took time and effort to detail many of the faults with the steaming pile that is Raspbian and no concrete answers where forthcoming, cause you don't have the answers.

I must confess, you have achieved quite a feat: You have most of the work done by the users. Almost like, kinda, I dunno ... Beta level. Yes, you launched a product that barely worked as desktop - Chromium is still pants despite you best efforts - though you did fix the loop between fullscreen and windowed, but come on...

I don't care. I just want to warn others not to b taken in by your BS marketing.

You haven't even got a screensaver working. I shouldn't need support on such a basic thing.

"Basically, your entire post is a useless rant, with so many disprovable statements it's laughable. Do you actually know anything about the subject in hand? No, clearly not."

I do know quite a bit about OS's and especially the GUI part having worked in that part of the industry for neigh on 25 years now - including work that had an audience of 300 million. But this isn't about me - it's you.

The rant isn't useless if 1 potential customer reads it and it makes them think twice. Disprove what I have written then. Send forth your best deniers and fanbois and we shall truly battle. I await...
Goodbye. Had a chance to be constructive, failed.

Oh, and in reference the xscreensaver - not installed by default, not a piece of software we wrote. So what has it to do with us? You didn't even bother to respond in a thread YOU started when people tried to help you. So, forgive me if I seem not to care, but it's a two way street. EDIT: Because it seems I do actually care, I've just checked xscreensaver, both in fkms and legacy graphics mode, and all seems to be perfectly fine on my 4GB Pi4. sudo apt install xscreensaver, then set it up from the Preferences menu. There may of course be some way of setting it up that breaks something - if anyone find one, let us know here.

I have banned this user, it's all very well being constructively critical, but I draw the line at being a dick with it.

So, to all those people this idiot is trying to talk to, please consider he is just one person (albeit one with an over exaggerated sense of self importance), and we have sold over a million Pi4, and over 28M Pi's in total. And we continue to sell at a very high rate. So, think to yourself, is this one person right, or are the millions right?

And just one final point to readers. The Pi might not be for you! Really! Check the specs, make sure it does what you want before buying. For many, it'll be fine, for many, it won't suit, after all, you cannot expect a $35-$55 to perform like a $500 desktop. Use Google, ask questions, here and elsewhere before you buy. If you do get one, that's great. If you have problems, ask here for help, that's what we are here for!
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asavah
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:01 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:13 pm
So, to all those people this idiot is trying to talk to, please consider he is just one person (albeit one with an over exaggerated sense of self importance), and we have sold over a million Pi4, and over 28M Pi's in total. And we continue to sell at a very high rate. So, think to yourself, is this one person right, or are the millions right?

And just one final point to readers. The Pi might not be for you! Really! Check the specs, make sure it does what you want before buying. For many, it'll be fine, for many, it won't suit, after all, you cannot expect a $35-$55 to perform like a $500 desktop. Use Google, ask questions, here and elsewhere before you buy. If you do get one, that's great. If you have problems, ask here for help, that's what we are here for!
As RPT Engineer and Moderator you shouldn't call another person, a customer, an idiot, even if they are acting like that.
I think you should look at your own attitude every now and then too.

Edit:
We are a very small team and we don't have the resources to {insert user request here}
But we "we have sold over a million Pi4, and over 28M Pi's in total. And we continue to sell at a very high rate. "
But we are a very small team

This contradictory yada yada I've been hearing for the last 5 years on this forums has to go.
Hiring more engineers to complement the EXCELENT team you have might be the solution.
Last edited by asavah on Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:08 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:13 pm
And just one final point to readers. The Pi might not be for you! Really! Check the specs, make sure it does what you want before buying. For many, it'll be fine, for many, it won't suit, after all, you cannot expect a $35-$55 to perform like a $500 desktop. Use Google, ask questions, here and elsewhere before you buy. If you do get one, that's great. If you have problems, ask here for help, that's what we are here for!
I tend to approach Pis from the other direction. Can it do what I want to do? If yes, then it is a fine solution. If no, then find something else that can. As a result, I find that the Pis exceed my expectations and do everything I ask of them and that "everything" increases with each new model. So...many, many thanks to the fine hardware and software engineers that bring us new Pis. I vote FOR Pis with my wallet.

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rpdom
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:10 pm

PeterO wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:54 pm
rpdom wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:00 pm
PeterO wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:38 am
It would be remiss of me not to mention that I still maintain and use a 39 bit machine. It may be in a museum, but it still counts :-) (Pun intended :lol: )
That's an odd number of bits.
It's both odd (not even) and odd (unusual) :-)
Yes. Hence my post :-)

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bomblord
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:15 pm

asavah wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:01 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:13 pm
So, to all those people this idiot is trying to talk to, please consider he is just one person (albeit one with an over exaggerated sense of self importance), and we have sold over a million Pi4, and over 28M Pi's in total. And we continue to sell at a very high rate. So, think to yourself, is this one person right, or are the millions right?

And just one final point to readers. The Pi might not be for you! Really! Check the specs, make sure it does what you want before buying. For many, it'll be fine, for many, it won't suit, after all, you cannot expect a $35-$55 to perform like a $500 desktop. Use Google, ask questions, here and elsewhere before you buy. If you do get one, that's great. If you have problems, ask here for help, that's what we are here for!
As RPT Engineer and Moderator you shouldn't call another person, a customer, an idiot, even if they are acting like that.
I think you should look at your own attitude every now and then too.

Edit:
We are a very small team and we don't have the resources to {insert user request here}
But we "we have sold over a million Pi4, and over 28M Pi's in total. And we continue to sell at a very high rate. "
But we are a very small team

This contradictory yada yada I've been hearing for the last 5 years on this forums has to go.
Hiring more engineers to complement the EXCELENT team you have might be the solution.
Nothing contradictory about it. A small team of enthusiasts are selling a low cost and low profit margin device (and in the case of the base Pi-zero selling at no profit) and have sold a total of 28 million units over the course of 7+ years. You can compare that to a large hardware company like Dell to get an idea of where they stand. Dell sells ~40 million higher profit hardware units a year and doesn't make or maintain their own OS branch.

I personally thing they might be able to justify hiring more engineers/developers but I don't know their financial situation and am thankful for the excellent team they have.
Last edited by bomblord on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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rpdom
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:20 pm

asavah wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:01 pm
Hiring more engineers to complement the EXCELENT team you have might be the solution.
RPT have been hiring more engineers and other people. They are a much bigger team than when they started (and expected to sell a few thousand Pi at most).

Even so, that small team is managing (just) to do what some larger companies struggle to do: Produce one successful product after another for an affordable price with very active support.

Also, don't forget that a large chunk of any profits made are ploughed back into charity work for education.

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PeterO
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:27 pm

asavah wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:01 pm
As RPT Engineer and Moderator you shouldn't call another person, a customer, an idiot, even if they are acting like that.
I think you should look at your own attitude every now and then too.
It's refreshing to see engineers calling "a spade a spade". Most companies hide their engineers behind "help desks" (or "unhelful desks") or worse still "sales engineers" (now there's a contradiction!).

Here you get to ask questions of the people that actually know the answers and you don't have to wait days for the questions to filter through layers of
(un)support staff.

PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

jamesh
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:35 pm

asavah wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:01 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:13 pm
So, to all those people this idiot is trying to talk to, please consider he is just one person (albeit one with an over exaggerated sense of self importance), and we have sold over a million Pi4, and over 28M Pi's in total. And we continue to sell at a very high rate. So, think to yourself, is this one person right, or are the millions right?

And just one final point to readers. The Pi might not be for you! Really! Check the specs, make sure it does what you want before buying. For many, it'll be fine, for many, it won't suit, after all, you cannot expect a $35-$55 to perform like a $500 desktop. Use Google, ask questions, here and elsewhere before you buy. If you do get one, that's great. If you have problems, ask here for help, that's what we are here for!
As RPT Engineer and Moderator you shouldn't call another person, a customer, an idiot, even if they are acting like that.
I think you should look at your own attitude every now and then too.
Perhaps. I've been doing this for 7 years or so. And TBH, I've wanted to call people a lot worse that that, and managed not to. But it get very wearing when someone with so few posts, and so little inclination to take advice comes on and slags off what I believe to be a very good product, especially when the deliberately try and stop sales - which after all, is how the entire team, and the Foundation survive. That is just plain mean and unpleasant, and not deserving of much consideration. It also,. we believe, someone who used to be registered under a different username, and was previously banned. So this is simple trolling.
asavah wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:01 pm
Edit:
We are a very small team and we don't have the resources to {insert user request here}
But we "we have sold over a million Pi4, and over 28M Pi's in total. And we continue to sell at a very high rate. "
But we are a very small team

This contradictory yada yada I've been hearing for the last 5 years on this forums has to go.
Hiring more engineers to complement the EXCELENT team you have might be the solution.
Why is this contradictory? I personally think we need a larger team, but that is not my call to make. And finding decent, dedicated people is not easy. We've pretty much run out of ex-Broadcom people who are a known quantity (many now work at Amazon where the salaries are v. good!). We do take on the occasional graduate (being close to Cambridge University helps!), but it's not frequent, and there are areas outside SW that need staff also.
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jcyr
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:48 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:35 pm
I personally think we need a larger team, but that is not my call to make. And finding decent, dedicated people is not easy. We've pretty much run out of ex-Broadcom people who are a known quantity (many now work at Amazon where the salaries are v. good!). We do take on the occasional graduate (being close to Cambridge University helps!), but it's not frequent, and there are areas outside SW that need staff also.
Have you given any thought to recruiting candidates who might be willing to work remotely?

Not volunteering... Retired from Broadcom a few years back and like this leisurely pace of life. :-)
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

hippy
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:56 pm

bomblord wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:15 pm
A small team of enthusiasts are selling a low cost and low profit margin device (and in the case of the base Pi-zero selling at a loss) and have sold a total of 28 million units over the course of 7+ years.
They have indeed done well but I wouldn't call it "a small team of enthusiasts"; the RPF may be considered as such but RPT is a commercial business venture which has made over £34 million profit of which over £26 million has been gift-aided to the RPF.

And I don't believe it is correct to say the Pi Zero is sold at a loss.

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rpdom
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:57 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:35 pm
I personally think we need a larger team, but that is not my call to make. And finding decent, dedicated people is not easy. We've pretty much run out of ex-Broadcom people who are a known quantity (many now work at Amazon where the salaries are v. good!). We do take on the occasional graduate (being close to Cambridge University helps!), but it's not frequent, and there are areas outside SW that need staff also.
Well, I'm available, but currently I'd need to work from home due to caring responsibilities and not full time. Not sure I've got any skills that would be useful, but I'd be happy to do a few days a week for peanuts at the moment.

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:07 pm

bomblord wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:15 pm
(and in the case of the base Pi-zero selling at a loss)
That has been said, and denied, numerous time. You need to fish or cut bait. Please show actual data supporting the contention that the Pi0 is sold at a loss.

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bomblord
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:35 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:07 pm
bomblord wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:15 pm
(and in the case of the base Pi-zero selling at a loss)
That has been said, and denied, numerous time. You need to fish or cut bait. Please show actual data supporting the contention that the Pi0 is sold at a loss.
The moderators/enginners of this forum say that the zero is sold with an educational discount and they can't afford to sell them in quantities of more than one because of that and when selling more than one they have to increase the price per unit to maintain profitability .

If I have misinterpreted something jamesh has said I apologize and am open to correction.
Last edited by bomblord on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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rpdom
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:40 pm

There is a difference between selling at virtually zero profit and making a loss.

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davidcoton
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:41 pm

bomblord wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:35 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:07 pm
bomblord wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:15 pm
(and in the case of the base Pi-zero selling at a loss)
That has been said, and denied, numerous time. You need to fish or cut bait. Please show actual data supporting the contention that the Pi0 is sold at a loss.
The moderators/enginners of this forum say that the zero is sold with an educational discount and they can't afford to sell them in quantities of more than one because of that and whens elling more than one they have to increase the price per unit to maintain profitability .

If I have misinterpreted something jamesh has said I apologize and am open to correction.
There is a difference between minimal (or even no) profit, and a loss.
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bomblord
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:45 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:41 pm
bomblord wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:35 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:07 pm

That has been said, and denied, numerous time. You need to fish or cut bait. Please show actual data supporting the contention that the Pi0 is sold at a loss.
The moderators/enginners of this forum say that the zero is sold with an educational discount and they can't afford to sell them in quantities of more than one because of that and whens elling more than one they have to increase the price per unit to maintain profitability .

If I have misinterpreted something jamesh has said I apologize and am open to correction.
There is a difference between minimal (or even no) profit, and a loss.
rpdom wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:40 pm
There is a difference between selling at virtually zero profit and making a loss.

Alright, I don't think that detracts from my initial argument though. I'll correct it and say no profit.

dickon
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:47 pm

It'd be nice if those of us who'd bought one without realising this could somehow make up the shortfall...

I have a Zero. Wanted one, have a use-case, simple as that. Hadn't appreciated the politics.

Heater
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:17 pm

I imagine that if the Pi Zero was available in huge quantities for anyone who wanted that would divert production capacity away from the other Pi.

In so diverting capacity from something that makes a profit to something that does not you suddenly find yourself making a loss over all. And you would have people complaining they can't get hold of Pi 4 or whatever because there is not enough supply.

Not good.

I have no idea of the economics of all this of course but I will confidently let the Pi Foundation and the manufacturers figure it out for the best.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:23 pm

Probably best to get back on the subject of 32 vs 64bit? (And I never thought I'd write that)
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sal55
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:37 pm

I've managed to do a first benchmark.

The test program is a 64-bit-oriented interpreter, in a 64-bit-oriented language, translated to C source (creates different C versions for 32-bit and 64-bit targets for technical reasons) and passed through gcc-O3 on each machine (but the gcc version varies). The program runs the recursive Fibonacci benchmark. Results are:

Code: Select all

Acer Windows PC 64-bit:     2.3 seconds (AMD Athlon 2.7GHz)
Same PC, Virtual Ubuntu:    3.0 seconds
HP Windows laptop 64-bit:   4.0 seconds (Intel Celeron 1.6GHz)
RPi4 Gentoo 64-bit:         4.2 seconds
RPi4 Raspbian 32-bit:       6.4 seconds
RPi1 Debian(?) 32-bit:     45.0 seconds
eCAFE Ubuntu 32-bit:       32.0 seconds (some ARM32 processor) 
Not too confident about the RPi1 timings; I remember there was a gcc problem where it generated byte-at-a-time accesses when it thought code was doing unaligned accesses; proper timings I remember were 1/8 of my then desktop PC, making this test around 20 seconds. But then that would have been an interpreter version designed to work efficiently with 32 bits, so maybe 45 seconds here is correct (the gcc is quite old though).

I might post more about the programs used in the programming section when they are more stable.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11062
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:58 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:23 pm
Probably best to get back on the subject of 32 vs 64bit? (And I never thought I'd write that)
To address the question posed in the subject line: Because 32-bit works well enough for the vast majority of Pi users and preserves backwards compatibility with Pis that can only run 32-bit code.

Do I expect that there will--eventually--be a fully 64-bit Raspbian? Yes. Am I putting off projects because it doesn't exist now? Certainly not.

For those that--for whatever reasons--believe that they simply must have a 64-bit OS (to run on Pis than can run it), there are alternatives and/or there are vast amounts of open source code to build their own systems from.

hippy
Posts: 6210
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:11 pm

Serious question.

Whether 32-bit or 64-bit a simple looping "n = n + 1" compiles to something like -

Code: Select all

      ld  r0, #n
Loop: ld  r1, @r0
      add r1, #1
      st  r1, @r0
      b   Loop
So ignoring differences in clock speeds, that 32-bit overflows sooner than 64-bit, that pointers are bigger; where exactly is the gain in being "64-bit" over "32-bit" ?

I can understand that a 64-bit machine may have additional instructions which can improve things -

Code: Select all

      ld  r0, #n
Loop: inc @r0
      b   Loop
But that's not really a gain from being "64-bit", that's a gain from a better ISA. I would say the same for having more registers, minimising memory reads and writes. And that extends to smaller die sizes, faster clock speeds, larger and faster caches, and what not. They are all gains but don't come about through virtue of being "64-bit". One could make the same improvements for a 32-bit core.

Most times data doesn't need to be 64-bit; 32-bit will usually do and even 8-bit.

So where does the gain in being "64-bit" over "32-bit" actually come from ?

dickon
Posts: 551
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:54 pm
Location: Home, just outside Reading

Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:19 pm

IIRC, the point of Raspbian was to recompile debian/armhf with an armv7 target, because vanilla Debian is only armv6, and the performance improvement between the two architectures is significant. Since then, the RPF have changed it a bit, but at its heart that's all Raspbian is.

debian/aarch64 shouldn't suffer from that problem, as aarch64 hasn't really had much time to differentiate instruction sets from the base. Personally, I expect a 64b 'Raspbian' to be more or less a vanilla debian/aarch64 with an additional repo for a Pi-specific desktop and Pi-specific packages (like omxplayer). Still work, but much less than a complete recompile.

I'm sure we'll see. It's instructive to see how much can be done with a 64b Foundation kernel and a debian/aarch64 userland. With enough bodging, particularly around the currently-32b-only packages, it's a lot.

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