ejolson
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:06 pm

chwe wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:46 pm
A "Raspbian" based on debian Arm64 packages shouldn't be much of an issue anymore (since stretch arm64 is a 'first class release architecture').
Thanks for a well worded thoughtful post. Indeed there many 64-bit distributions which already run well on the Pi. In my opinion, most people literate enough to know the difference are also likely able to load something other than Raspbian on their 64-bit capable Pi. For those that can't, there is enough help on this forum to get a 64-bit distribution running. For example, when I had a problem with the 64-bit Gentoo image (WireGuard wouldn't build because of missing kernel headers) help came within a day.

In my opinion, the likely reason there is so much effort spent maintaining an official distribution like Raspbian is because the goals are different than mainstream distributions such as Ubuntu, Red Hat, Suse and Debian. In particular
  • Raspbian includes software such as Minecraft, Mathematica, Scratch and Sonic Pi useful for education.
  • Raspbian is designed to allow card-swap compatibility between Zero computers used in embedded projects and more powerful models used for development.
While Raspbian also includes blobs for the GPU and optimised support for the camera, touch display and other nonstandard devices, the same drivers are typically available in the other Linux distributions as well.

My point, however, is that Raspbian is unique enough to warrant the resources needed to maintain it. On the other hand, mainstream 64-bit ARM distributions are already well supported by their own development communities and don't need much help to run well on the Pi.

jamesh
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:43 pm

chwe wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:46 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:50 pm
7 posts and this. Wow. Not going to delete this one, to simply prove that NO we don't delete posts like this. You have to be a real A-hole to get a post deleted, you are just an amateur.
so if you only take people serious with a certain amount of posts, you might miss a bunch of good ones.. They simply walk away if they think it's worthless to discuss with you (representing also the company). I don't want to judge the particular post.. just as a general reminder.
jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:50 pm
32bit - well, the arguments for that go back years. You are a bit late to the party, asare most people who think rants like this are worth writing. The arguments are well known, performance of 64 isn't that much better, the support burden for two systems is beyond what we have staff for, and backwards compatibility to other devices. All perfectly valid reasons; you might not think so but you would be wrong. Because, wouldn't we have actually done an 64bit distribution if it was easy? And of course, we are now working towards one, carefully, because it's important to get it right.
The extra burden cause you can fetch most of the stuff directly from debian.org instead of doing the work on your own? Others who provide some sort of a debian for ARM SBCs provide 64bit and 32bit versions (depending on SoC used). And they don't sell the millions of devices you always mentions if someone criticizes the way you handle an issue. ;) It doesn't have to be 'perfect' from the first release (your first raspbian wasn't perfect as well, and the majority of the community seems to accept wip projects much more than an average customer). You could also do the development in public (e.g. an 64bit branch of https://github.com/RPi-Distro/pi-gen). I don't see much of a reason to pack everything by yourself - it's not that your new CPU architecture is so uncommon for debian as the RPi 1 was.
jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:50 pm
So, would it have been better to just delete your post?
IMO as a moderator you shouldn't ask the "mob", and that's what you're doing here, if a post should be deleted. You might refer to forum rules combined with your sort of common sense (I'm quite sure it will differ from mine - which is completely fine, we don't have to agree on everything). Otherwise this forum feels like "you and the 'mob' against the few who don't agree". Which likely ends in people choosing a more harsh tone cause they think it's needed to get their opinion heard (and due to the nature of this forum this mostly ends in "mob tells the new guy he should go away if he doesn't like the current approach", threads addressing such 'issues' are bloated with a lot of garbage and aren't worth to read anymore - this one is a perfect example of such a thread).

A "Raspbian" based on debian Arm64 packages shouldn't be much of an issue anymore (since stretch arm64 is a 'first class release architecture'). Most of the packages are already packed and ready to use (it wasn't much an issue on jessie as well, but in jessie the term 'first class release architecture' is missing https://wiki.debian.org/Arm64Port#Official_Debian_port). And from personal tests, a 64 bit debian rootfs combined with the raspberry pi's kernel shortly after release worked quite okay for my headless use-cases. For sure, not everything might work from the beginning and you probably should mark such an image as WIP or 'only for testing purposes' so that it's obvious for the users that the level of support isn't comparable to the Raspbian 32bit which matured over so many years.
I thought that post was past history, but i guess someone had to bring it up again. The delete question was rhetorical btw, no-one else felt the need to actually answer it. Always best not to tell us how to run the forum, it's been running pretty well for 7 years. People who rant, insult staff, or generally act like arses get short shrift. Always have, always will. And I'm the nice one. You really don't want to get on the wrong side of the boss.

And the burden of doing a 64bit userland is not wholly with simple maintaining the distro, there is a huge amount of work required to make the VCHIQ interface 64 bit capable. That bit cannot be crowd sourced, as the firmware at the end of the interface is closed. And we cannot release a 64+64 bit distro, if the camera doesn't work, or the H264 codecs don't work, or Kodi doesn't work. We are getting closer, the KMS driver takes some of the porting burden away, but not all of it by a long stretch. But KMS isn't finished, and we are concentrating on FKMS at the moment as that interfaces with the codecs and camera with no issues.

As for a 64kernel, that's on its way, there's a thread about it. Quite noticeable how many issues are being seen on something that should 'just work'. But they are getting sorted, bit by bit, and it's very much a combined effort.
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dickon
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:14 pm

I must admit, when I booted my Pi 4 with the 64b kernel for the first time, the one thing I was expecting to fail horribly -- omxplayer -- just worked, first time, with no issues. Rather impressed by that.

jdb
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:24 pm

chwe wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:46 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:50 pm
So, would it have been better to just delete your post?
IMO as a moderator you shouldn't ask the "mob", and that's what you're doing here, if a post should be deleted. You might refer to forum rules combined with your sort of common sense (I'm quite sure it will differ from mine - which is completely fine, we don't have to agree on everything). Otherwise this forum feels like "you and the 'mob' against the few who don't agree". Which likely ends in people choosing a more harsh tone cause they think it's needed to get their opinion heard (and due to the nature of this forum this mostly ends in "mob tells the new guy he should go away if he doesn't like the current approach", threads addressing such 'issues' are bloated with a lot of garbage and aren't worth to read anymore - this one is a perfect example of such a thread).

Point of order: the statement quoted above is a rhetorical question. JamesH wasn't asking people on the forum for their opinion.
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LTolledo
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:32 pm

jamesh wrote: As for a 64kernel, that's on its way, there's a thread about it. Quite noticeable how many issues are being seen on something that should 'just work'. But they are getting sorted, bit by bit, and it's very much a combined effort.
I'll probably pick on the 64bit Raspbian when its already "ripe for the picking" :D
... rather than pick it now and ..... :cry: :evil:
:mrgreen:
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Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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chwe
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:38 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:43 pm
I thought that post was past history, but i guess someone had to bring it up again. The delete question was rhetorical btw, no-one else felt the need to actually answer it. Always best not to tell us how to run the forum, it's been running pretty well for 7 years. People who rant, insult staff, or generally act like arses get short shrift. Always have, always will. And I'm the nice one. You really don't want to get on the wrong side of the boss.
quess what.... there are people which don't read your forum on a daily basis.. If it would be from 2 months ago this would make sense.. if a post is 3 days old. meh.. as said, we don't have to agree on everything... we might have a different style how to act as a moderator.
jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:43 pm
That bit cannot be crowd sourced, as the firmware at the end of the interface is closed. And we cannot release a 64+64 bit distro, if the camera doesn't work, or the H264 codecs don't work, or Kodi doesn't work.
simple question... why not? In the beginnings of the RPi not even the USB worked properly. That's why you mark such images as WIP, and to avoid future questions you can add something like:
- CSI, DSI & hardware accelerated decoding is currently not supported.
- blablabla
- ...

That's what release notes are for. For sure it won't be satisfying everyone.. the current situation doesn't do it neither, and even if you release an new one with full support someone will find something which doesn't work as he expects it. You probably shouldn't release a noobs version of a 64bit raspbian. The current situation is that non of the 'known' projects around arm SBCs support a 64bit debian derivative for the RPi4 (and this months after release). Even on the ubuntu side it looks quite dark (or at least wasn't yet updated on the websites I checked).

dickon
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:51 pm

Dear gods. Did you *see* the threads of people complaining, bitterly, that something as relatively unimportant as USB boot wasn't implemented on the Pi 4? And you seriously think that a half-finished OS is going to be received *better*?

Those who know what they're doing can install debian/arm64 and the 64b Foundation kernel, plus whatever they need to get whatever they want running. Those who don't can live with 32b for the moment, or learn in the knowledge that it isn't supported and thus not to complain here.

chwe
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:56 pm

sure, someone who might be interested in a 64bit userland is for sure an expert in debootstrap and setting up a qemu on a buildhost to glue a more or less proper 64bit debian together.. :roll:

If we've a look at the current distribution providing "debian based" (okay, it's ubuntu, but wont be picky on that) image for raspberries:

ubuntu mate (https://ubuntu-mate.org/raspberry-pi/):
Hardware acceleration:

fbturbo driver is pre-installed but limited to 2D accelerated window moving/scrolling on Raspberry Pi (using the BCM2835 DMA Controller).
VLC has hardware assisted video decoding.
ffmpeg has hardware assisted video decoding and encoding.
The experimental VC4 driver can be enabled via raspi-config.
Please note, the arm64 images do not feature any VideoCore IV hardware acceleration.
ubuntu (core and server) doesn't mention much about it (or I didn't spot it)..

People will complain anyways, no-matter how good the provided product is. If a release note (or the wiki for the USB boot) contains proper information what works and what doesn't work, it's properly done. People can complain and you can happily point to the release note where it's mentioned that certain features currently don't work.

graphicw
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:13 am

Anybody with even a little common sense knows the Pi 4 is a WIP. I enjoy the challenge and have been happy computing at 8 bit, 16 bit and 32 bit for many years now. 64 bit on any Pi is expirimental and problems are to be expect. Enjoy the challenge for what it is and buckle down and enjoy the challenge from it

Truth be told, the guys behind the Pi really care and are very transparent about there progress. I enjoy reading about their technical challenges which they detail very well. These people really care about their product and at the end of the day, that is all that matters. Problems will be ironed out in due time

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CypherOz
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:38 am

jamesh wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:28 pm
64 bit is coming. Meanwhile, 32 bit works for the vast majority of users. Like, 99.99999% of them.
And the incremental approach is probably best; i.e. kernel first etc as you are doing. - Thanks!!

I only have one application that really benefits from 64 bit, that is stockfish (chess engine).
For the [obvious?] reason of 64bit bit-boards etc. I.e. the internal bit based representation of chess information and the 64 bit instruction to manipulate that data.

So soon I will try the 64 bit kernel and attempt to build a running 64bit stockfish

Keep up the good work, I am enjoying my Pi4B and non geek friends are amazed.

I even used it for a small contract job, network security scans etc.
When the customer saw what I hooked up they were quite surprised
--
Regards, Kym
Retired software bloke from Adelaide, South Australia

Heater
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:40 am

All of computing is a Work In Progress (WIP). Hardware, software, protocols, standards, everything. All the time.

Nothing we use does not get regularly updated. At a frightening rate often.

The Pi still being 32 bits and being based on the conservatively updated Debian is a little island of stability in space and time. A haven of peace and tranquility in the oceanic turmoil that is the computing world. And guess what, people come an complain about it!

Incredible.

If they are hungry for chaos there is plenty of it available for them. I have been running a 64 bit OS on Pi for two years now. There are multiple 64 bit possibilities for the Pi 4.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

oicfar
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:38 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:22 pm
Just remember:
The Pi is not conceived to play in the formula one ligue.
It is designed to be an education and tinkering low cost SOC based computer.
Raspbian has a policy of backward compatibility, that I hope will not be broken for a long time.
If someone uses it for power-hungry apps, it's their choice, but we should not take much advice of their needs.
You are free to install 64bit OSes on your Pi.
You are right. Instead of buying an expensive Intel CPU, I decided to buy 7* Pi 4 (4 GB edition). On this cluster I installed:

- Slurm https://slurm.schedmd.com/
- Open-MPI -> For some calculations -> only just4fun
- Docker Swarm with Portainer -> currently with memcache, PostgreSQL which are running in the Docker Container.

At the moment I'm "happy" with the performance. I'm using Raspbian Buster Lite image. At the moment 32bit. I'm thinking to switch to the 64bit. But first I will do some tests.

oicfar
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:40 pm

Heater wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:40 am
All of computing is a Work In Progress (WIP). Hardware, software, protocols, standards, everything. All the time.

Nothing we use does not get regularly updated. At a frightening rate often.

The Pi still being 32 bits and being based on the conservatively updated Debian is a little island of stability in space and time. A haven of peace and tranquility in the oceanic turmoil that is the computing world. And guess what, people come an complain about it!

Incredible.

If they are hungry for chaos there is plenty of it available for them. I have been running a 64 bit OS on Pi for two years now. There are multiple 64 bit possibilities for the Pi 4.
Which 64bit systems are good for the Pi4?

Heater
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:49 pm

There is a 64 Gentoo Linux in a stocky thread at the top of this forum. Gentoo is great.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 3&t=249382
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

ejolson
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:47 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:49 pm
There is a 64 Gentoo Linux in a stocky thread at the top of this forum. Gentoo is great.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 3&t=249382
I don't know about Gentoo itself, but thanks to a talented and enthusiastic forum member, the support available on this forum for 64-bit Gentoo on the Raspberry Pi is definitely great.

In fact, my experience with Gentoo on the Pi has been good enough that I've been rethinking what to use on my Intel-compatible PC.

Heater
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:52 pm

Gentoo was great back in the day, before I got Debianized. By all accounts it still is.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

dickon
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:18 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:52 pm
Gentoo was great back in the day, before I got Debianized. By all accounts it still is.
Although there's always that amusing quote from someone: 'No, Gentoo users' computers don't run slowly due to unoptimised code. Gentoo users' computers run slowly because they're always recompiling everything.' or words to that effect...

Of course, there's a certain irony in that if Raspbian had been based on Gentoo instead of Debian, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation...

ejolson
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:24 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:52 pm
Gentoo was great back in the day, before I got Debianized. By all accounts it still is.
I switched directly from Slackware to Debian sometime near the end of the last century. Now that Debian has been assimilated, I've been looking for an alternative to figuring out in which ways systemd doesn't work. Since it is uncertain whether the next release of Slackware will arrive before the digital apocalypse, I've been looking at other Linux distributions and DragonflyBSD.

Last year I tried Gentoo on my PC, but the learning curve was too steep and my PC too slow. I've been experimenting with Artix Linux, however, given how well Gentoo is now running on the 4B, it is tempting to try that again.

Back on topic, since some good 64-bit operating systems are now available, the original question might better be phrased, "why should I use a 64-bit operating system on my Pi 4B?"

Heater
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:29 pm

True dat,

Imagine, when I was into Gentoo I had only just upgraded to a 128Kbs DSL internet connection and was using an AMD K6 !

Still there are lot's of pre-compiled Gentoo packages.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:32 pm

ejolson,

I'm curious, in which way does systemd not work.

I don't care much one way or the other but systemd has always been working for me and is very convenient for setting up and controlling services.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

dickon
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:33 pm

You can still run sysvinit on Debian and derivatives. I do on all my machines, for obvious reasons.

Code: Select all

apt install sysvinit-core
apt remove --purge systemd
reboot
apt remove --purge systemd
usually does the trick.

ejolson
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:46 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:32 pm
I'm curious, in which way does systemd not work.
I said, "I've been looking for an alternative to figuring out in which ways systemd doesn't work." As a result of those alternatives, I'm starting to know much more about the ways in which runit doesn't work.

ejolson
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:53 pm

dickon wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:33 pm
You can still run sysvinit on Debian and derivatives. I do on all my machines, for obvious reasons.

Code: Select all

apt install sysvinit-core
apt remove --purge systemd
reboot
apt remove --purge systemd
usually does the trick.
Does that also work on Raspbian Buster where everything is still 32-bit?

dickon
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:01 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:32 pm
I'm curious, in which way does systemd not work.
I could rant, but I won't.

I have managed to get systemd into a state where it logged the fact that the logging service had crashed, logged the fact that it was going to restart it, logged the fact that it had restarted the logging service, and then again logged the fact that the damned thing had crashed again. This was on a Pi, and I still have no idea what I did. I hadn't done anything I haven't done a thousand times before on other machines.

And then again, binary logfiles. Atrocious DNS handling: convert the DNS request into XML, spit it across dbus, deconvert it, hand off to the recursive resolver, read the response, convert *the bits it knows about* into XML (discarding the rest), spit it back across dbus, and return a result from the library to the process which requested it. Then you've got the buggy NTP implementation. And there are numerous other issues, which broadly comes from the NIH attitude of the authors: everything is reimplemented, badly, rather than reusing existing libraries. Couple that with the fact it's been written by the perpetrator of PulseAudio, and you get a serious set of thumbs-down from me.

It's just *so* unbearably crap, that the first thing I do on approach to a new Debianoid install is the dance above. OK, it's a bit slower to boot, but at least it, you know, *works*...

OK, I lied about the ranting. Sorry.

dickon
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:04 pm

ejolson wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:53 pm
Does that also work on Raspbian Buster where everything is still 32-bit?
My Pi 4 is running it, yes. Vanilla Buster, with no significant changes, other than netbooting and NFS root. No desktop, though; the machine is strictly commandline only.

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