ejolson
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:53 pm

dickon wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:33 pm
You can still run sysvinit on Debian and derivatives. I do on all my machines, for obvious reasons.

Code: Select all

apt install sysvinit-core
apt remove --purge systemd
reboot
apt remove --purge systemd
usually does the trick.
Does that also work on Raspbian Buster where everything is still 32-bit?

dickon
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:01 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:32 pm
I'm curious, in which way does systemd not work.
I could rant, but I won't.

I have managed to get systemd into a state where it logged the fact that the logging service had crashed, logged the fact that it was going to restart it, logged the fact that it had restarted the logging service, and then again logged the fact that the damned thing had crashed again. This was on a Pi, and I still have no idea what I did. I hadn't done anything I haven't done a thousand times before on other machines.

And then again, binary logfiles. Atrocious DNS handling: convert the DNS request into XML, spit it across dbus, deconvert it, hand off to the recursive resolver, read the response, convert *the bits it knows about* into XML (discarding the rest), spit it back across dbus, and return a result from the library to the process which requested it. Then you've got the buggy NTP implementation. And there are numerous other issues, which broadly comes from the NIH attitude of the authors: everything is reimplemented, badly, rather than reusing existing libraries. Couple that with the fact it's been written by the perpetrator of PulseAudio, and you get a serious set of thumbs-down from me.

It's just *so* unbearably crap, that the first thing I do on approach to a new Debianoid install is the dance above. OK, it's a bit slower to boot, but at least it, you know, *works*...

OK, I lied about the ranting. Sorry.

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:04 pm

ejolson wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:53 pm
Does that also work on Raspbian Buster where everything is still 32-bit?
My Pi 4 is running it, yes. Vanilla Buster, with no significant changes, other than netbooting and NFS root. No desktop, though; the machine is strictly commandline only.

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:38 pm

dickon wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:01 pm
Heater wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:32 pm
I'm curious, in which way does systemd not work.
I could rant, but I won't.

I have managed to get systemd into a state where it logged the fact that the logging service had crashed, logged the fact that it was going to restart it, logged the fact that it had restarted the logging service, and then again logged the fact that the damned thing had crashed again. This was on a Pi, and I still have no idea what I did. I hadn't done anything I haven't done a thousand times before on other machines.

And then again, binary logfiles. Atrocious DNS handling: convert the DNS request into XML, spit it across dbus, deconvert it, hand off to the recursive resolver, read the response, convert *the bits it knows about* into XML (discarding the rest), spit it back across dbus, and return a result from the library to the process which requested it. Then you've got the buggy NTP implementation. And there are numerous other issues, which broadly comes from the NIH attitude of the authors: everything is reimplemented, badly, rather than reusing existing libraries. Couple that with the fact it's been written by the perpetrator of PulseAudio, and you get a serious set of thumbs-down from me.

It's just *so* unbearably crap, that the first thing I do on approach to a new Debianoid install is the dance above. OK, it's a bit slower to boot, but at least it, you know, *works*...

OK, I lied about the ranting. Sorry.
But there are some good things about systemd:

sudo systemctl stop xxx
sudo systemctl disable xxx

:lol:

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:00 am

logcabin wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:38 pm
But there are some good things about systemd:

sudo systemctl stop xxx
sudo systemctl disable xxx

:lol:
sudo is a pestilence that needs to die.

If you're going to do sysadmin tasks, do them as root. sudo just gets you into the habit of prefixing everything with it, which is much, much more dangerous than a proper root shell: you become inured to it, so do it out of habit, rather than wondering 'do I *really* need to be root to do this?'.

And as for systemctl,

Code: Select all

sh /etc/init.d/foo stop
update-rc.d foo disable
does the same thing.

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:49 am

dickon wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:00 am
which is much, much more dangerous than a proper root shell:
A root shell.... where everything is implicitly prefixed with "sudo" whether you want it or not, whether you think about it or not.......
As a long time Unix/Linux user (and former SysAdmin) these days I much prefer using a sudo prefix than a root shell.

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:57 am

My point is, you're typing into a root prompt, which looks different, with a '#' instead of a '$' (conventionally), so you are aware that what you're doing is potentially dangerous. Conditioning people to simply prefix everything with a magic 'make all the permissions problems go away' string that sudo is is actually more dangerous.

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:10 am

My plan is to win Powerball, buy the Pi foundation and force deprecation of 32 bit. If so many people love it let them maintain it while the supported OS goes 64 bit.

Actually I'd probably just use the money to make a RISCV board

This post is 100% humor

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:28 am

dickon wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:57 am
My point is, you're typing into a root prompt, which looks different, with a '#' instead of a '$' (conventionally), so you are aware that what you're doing is potentially dangerous. Conditioning people to simply prefix everything with a magic 'make all the permissions problems go away' string that sudo is is actually more dangerous.
I really can't agree about the prompt. The difference between "$" and "#" as a prompt is not something most people would even notice or know about.
Using sudo properly is a much better way. There is nothing wrong with sudo it self , as you say it's the way it's used indiscriminately and without thought that is the problem.
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:47 pm

dickon wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:00 am
If you're going to do sysadmin tasks, do them as root. sudo just gets you into the habit of prefixing everything with it, which is much, much more dangerous than a proper root shell: you become inured to it, so do it out of habit, rather than wondering 'do I *really* need to be root to do this?'.
Anyone who gets into the habit of prefixing with sudo will just as easily get into the habit of using a root shell.

But there's no easy way to avoid habits being formed when something stands in the way of what a user wants to do. Click-through by habit also occurs when asked "Are you sure?" too many times.

I am sure a lot of people using a Pi would prefer to be running with superuser privileges and not have to use sudo or root shells or otherwise be prevented from whatever they want to do. No matter that it isn't a great idea; it's what they want. It's why many Windows PC users are Administrator when they can be, with as many protections turned off as possible.

Unfortunately there's no easy fine-grained permissions system, no means to say "yes, I really do want to mess with network configurations" or the like, which need sudo, but still have protection from unintended damage otherwise; it's all or nothing.

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:18 pm

tului wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:10 am
My plan is to win Powerball, buy the Pi foundation and force deprecation of 32 bit. If so many people love it let them maintain it while the supported OS goes 64 bit.

Actually I'd probably just use the money to make a RISCV board

This post is 100% humor
Whilst humour, might be worth saying that you would not only need to buy Trading(multiple 10 of millions I suspect),. but also employ some extra staff to do the porting work. Say, another couple of hundred grand or so. Probably more.
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:17 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:18 pm
tului wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:10 am
My plan is to win Powerball, buy the Pi foundation and force deprecation of 32 bit. If so many people love it let them maintain it while the supported OS goes 64 bit.

Actually I'd probably just use the money to make a RISCV board

This post is 100% humor
Whilst humour, might be worth saying that you would not only need to buy Trading(multiple 10 of millions I suspect),. but also employ some extra staff to do the porting work. Say, another couple of hundred grand or so. Probably more.
Plus, by abandoning 32-bit the foundation would have the problem of selling a product like the RPi0 whilst not supporting it with an up-to-date OS, not to mention abandoning all those people who are currently using them. That would loose the foundation a lot of brownie points and their reputation would take a nose-dive.
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:02 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:18 pm
tului wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:10 am
My plan is to win Powerball, buy the Pi foundation and force deprecation of 32 bit. If so many people love it let them maintain it while the supported OS goes 64 bit.

Actually I'd probably just use the money to make a RISCV board

This post is 100% humor
Whilst humour, might be worth saying that you would not only need to buy Trading(multiple 10 of millions I suspect),. but also employ some extra staff to do the porting work. Say, another couple of hundred grand or so. Probably more.
Does that mean you would have to win Powerball multiple times?

The problem with sudo, in my opinion, is that it is generally set up to take the same password as the unprivileged account (or worse, none). On the other hand, a separate root account with a distinct password tends not to blur the difference between system administration tasks and user tasks. Distinct passwords makes it more clear which hat one needs to wear when doing different things.

Stated another way, with a properly configured system it should not take system-level privileges to perform user-level tasks.

To make things more definite, user-level tasks on the Raspberry Pi should, in my opinion, include development of IoT applications as well as formatting, mounting and unmounting user-owned external USB media. What makes such a setup difficult in practice is that the original Unix permission systems didn't include sufficient security mechanisms to protect a user from themselves. For example, it is difficult for a user to sandbox their own processes without invoking system-level privileges.

Back on topic, there is no reason why a 32-bit operating system couldn't implement security mechanisms that allow a user to protect themselves from their own processes. Moreover, there is no indication moving to 64-bit would help at all with this matter.

logcabin
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:42 pm

dickon wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:00 am
logcabin wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:38 pm
But there are some good things about systemd:

sudo systemctl stop xxx
sudo systemctl disable xxx

:lol:
sudo is a pestilence that needs to die.

If you're going to do sysadmin tasks, do them as root. sudo just gets you into the habit of prefixing everything with it, which is much, much more dangerous than a proper root shell: you become inured to it, so do it out of habit, rather than wondering 'do I *really* need to be root to do this?'.

And as for systemctl,

Code: Select all

sh /etc/init.d/foo stop
update-rc.d foo disable
does the same thing.
Yikes, that was supposed to be a joke, not the beginning of a debate over sudo vs. a root shell!

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:48 pm

That's OK. I just get *very* annoyed at systemd and sudo.

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:50 am

dickon wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:48 pm
That's OK. I just get *very* annoyed at systemd and sudo.
You need some therapy. sudo isn't evil although I force it to require the root password. Systemd isn't evil when compared to the old sysvinit stuff which was difficult to use if you ever wanted to create a new service. Systemd may be big and unwieldy but it's an order of magnitude (or two) easier to control.
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:11 am

But it's broken. Thoroughly broken.

sysvinit is simple -- probably too simple these days -- but works.

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:17 am

dickon wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:11 am
But it's broken. Thoroughly broken.
And yet millions of systems using it manage to boot successfully ! How is that "broken" or does it just not do what you want it to do ?

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:32 am

I have no idea why, but every time I attempt to use it, it breaks. It's probably something I'm doing, but I don't know what, and can't track it down because it's such a fundamental part of the system that when it breaks, nothing boots. It's also 'solving' an utterly non-problem for me: booting quicker is simply not a thing. With uptimes in the months, a few seconds at startup is irrelevant, and on x86 swamped by the BIOS nonsense anyway.

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:46 am

dickon wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:32 am
I have no idea why, but every time I attempt to use it, it breaks. It's probably something I'm doing, but I don't know what, and can't track it down because it's such a fundamental part of the system that when it breaks, nothing boots. It's also 'solving' an utterly non-problem for me: booting quicker is simply not a thing. With uptimes in the months, a few seconds at startup is irrelevant, and on x86 swamped by the BIOS nonsense anyway.
27 Million Pi, millions of Ubuntu installations, millions of other distros', all working fine with systemd.

It's not broken.
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:36 am

dickon wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:32 am
I have no idea why, but every time I attempt to use it, it breaks. It's probably something I'm doing, but I don't know what, and can't track it down because it's such a fundamental part of the system that when it breaks, nothing boots. It's also 'solving' an utterly non-problem for me: booting quicker is simply not a thing. With uptimes in the months, a few seconds at startup is irrelevant, and on x86 swamped by the BIOS nonsense anyway.
**your doing it wrong**

how do you attempt to use it ,
I've moved to systemd quite a few years back and have had less issues than init.d when adding new stuff ,
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:43 am

Forgive my ignorance, but
how is sudo, systemd and sysvinit part of the "...is still 32-bit" debacle? :?
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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:52 am

RaTTuS wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:36 am
**your doing it wrong**

how do you attempt to use it ,
I boot the device, mostly, and something goes horribly wrong. I've long since given up trying to work out what and why, so just blow it away at the earliest convenience.

One day it may work properly. I don't hold out much hope. It's too big, too badly architected, *far* too verbose on boot, and far, far too fragile. Yes, it works for most people. But try to do anything interesting, and it will break.

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:52 am

LTolledo wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:43 am
Forgive my ignorance, but
how is sudo, systemd and sysvinit part of the "...is still 32-bit" debacle? :?
They're all 32b processes on Raspbian..? :-)

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Re: RPI4: Why is everything still 32-bit?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:17 am

Despite the title not for or against but more a comment on the sad state of debate: "The Tragedy of systemd" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo
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