alphanumeric
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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:24 pm

Personally I like that the Pi Zero doesn't have a GPIO header pre soldered in. That gives you options for using a different header. 90 degree or female on the bottom instead of male on top. Or no header for a nice slim profile for an embedded project. I can see it being an issue for those that aren't fussy for doing any soldering. You can get it with a header soldered though, for a fee.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:35 pm

dmikester1 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:06 pm
Anyone know if there has been any talk about an updated Zero coming out?
Long term I would expect RPT to arrive at a solution for an updated Zero W, overcoming the obstacles which are against that happening at the moment.

What it will be, when it will arrive, and how much it will cost, is anyone's guess.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:19 am

chipace wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:33 pm
I used one in a solar powered weather station.
Ouch! either you have got plenty of sun the whole year around, or you have plenty of solar+battery power!
I had a 30w solar panel and a 50Ah lead battery feeding just a Zero @ 80mA and it did not pass last winter.
I make noise level measurements and must be on 24/24.
I will make a second try this winter by powering the WiFi only upon the hourly summary transmission.

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rin67630
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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:28 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:59 pm
... but with a more powerful CPU and/or GPU.
You have got so much applications that will not use the Zero CPU for more than 3%... If you want power, go for its bigger brothers.
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:59 pm
That is, eventually Raspbian will have to go 64-bit and the SoC on the Pi0/Pi0W can't do that...
No. The policy of RPF is to be backward compatible with every previous model and it hopefully will always be.
I personally think, that going 64bit is not the very intent of the RPi philosophy.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:35 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:35 pm
The only down side to a Pi Zero, is having to find adapters or get special cables.
Not if you use them headless.

Else, yes the adapters are jeopardizing the nice from factor.
The good thing is that the Zeroes have all main connectors to the same side.

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rpdom
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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:56 am

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:35 am
The good thing is that the Zeroes have all main connectors to the same side.
FCVO "main".

alphanumeric
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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:19 am

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:35 am
alphanumeric wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:35 pm
The only down side to a Pi Zero, is having to find adapters or get special cables.
Not if you use them headless.

Else, yes the adapters are jeopardizing the nice from factor.
The good thing is that the Zeroes have all main connectors to the same side.
For a good number of people, they will still need at least one set of adapters to get it up and running. Those that have been at it a while will just SSH in etc. Most of my Zero builds are running headless. I have a spare monitor, keyboard, power supply and all the cables I need to hook up whatever Pi I'm tinkering with that day. Different strokes for different folks. It works OK for me and how I do things. As I mentioned earlir I ended up buying a kit to actually get my hands on a Zero so I have the adapters etc on hand anyway.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:04 am

rpdom wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:56 am
rin67630 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:35 am
The good thing is that the Zeroes have all main connectors to the same side.
FCVO "main".
Power, USB+HDMI = Non proprietary...
Last edited by rin67630 on Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:12 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:19 am
For a good number of people, they will still need at least one set of adapters to get it up and running.
Yes, I know. Starting from scratch headless is possible, but not so easy for beginners.
Too few people know, that you can set them up with e.g. a Pi 3A, activate VNC, swap the SD cards and go on headless.
SSH and only the command line is not everybody's taste.
Last edited by rin67630 on Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rpdom
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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:16 am

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:12 am
SSD and only the command line is not everybody's taste.
I think you mean SSH.

SSH and command line is a good start to get the other things configured (if you want them), and easy to set up with almost any computer.

Now, an updated Zero (Zero+?) with a single on board M.2 style interface could be interesting, but I digress. Too expensive, for one thing.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:19 am

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:12 am
alphanumeric wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:19 am
For a good number of people, they will still need at least one set of adapters to get it up and running.
Yes, I know. Starting from scratch headless is possible, but not so easy for beginners.
Too few people know, that you can set them up with e.g. a Pi 3A, activate VNC, swap the SD cards and go on headless.
SSD and only the command line is not everybody's taste.
I'm one of those, "not everybody's taste" people, lol. I install the full Raspbian, do all my setup with monitor and keyboard from the GUI. Then run raspi-config and set it to boot to command line. Its just what works for me. I'm not fussy for doing it all from command line. If I was younger with more patience I might go that way. But I'm not. ;)

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rin67630
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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:37 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:19 am
I'm one of those, "not everybody's taste" people, lol. I install the full Raspbian, do all my setup with monitor and keyboard from the GUI.
Then run raspi-config and set it to boot to command line.
Why? you can run so comfortably with VNC and still control your Zero headless fully graphically from your main computer.
All my Zeroes work that way and have mostly only 3% CPU load...

And the best is, that you get a Raspberry license to use privately VNC worldwide, across any router. That is unvaluable!

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:16 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:28 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:59 pm
... but with a more powerful CPU and/or GPU.
You have got so much applications that will not use the Zero CPU for more than 3%... If you want power, go for its bigger brothers.
I think it is unlikely that anyone would replicate the BCM2835, but with a 64-bit-capable CPU. Not impossible to do, but rather unlikely. The biggest constraint to that is the requirement for PoP RAM, which limits the physical size of the die in the package. Going to a smaller process node (the BCM2835 is 40nm node) as was done with the BCM2711 (28nm) is one way to help it fit. Think of something like a Pi4 SoC, but cut down to a single (or, at most, two) CPU core and using a smaller core like the A53. The question remains...Who is going to pay for the 7-figure development cost?
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:59 pm
That is, eventually Raspbian will have to go 64-bit and the SoC on the Pi0/Pi0W can't do that...
No. The policy of RPF is to be backward compatible with every previous model and it hopefully will always be.
I personally think, that going 64bit is not the very intent of the RPi philosophy.
They are already working on a 64-bit kernel with 32-bit userland. At some point, general support for 32-bit is going to dry up. If you want to make a case that that is a bad idea, you won't get any argument from me, but it is the future trend. And, yes, it means that early Pis are going to lose support. The best-of-the-worst case would be to keep the final, final 32-bit release available for download, with all patches in it.

Mind, you I don't expect to see Raspbian move to 64-bit for at least 5 years, which is safely after guaranteed availability of the CM1 ends. So it may not ever be an issue for me, personally, what with being 70 now.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:02 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:28 am
No. The policy of RPF is to be backward compatible with every previous model and it hopefully will always be.
I personally think, that going 64bit is not the very intent of the RPi philosophy.
I believe the policy was to help educate young people in programming and develop an interest at a young age so they can grow up with some experience and enter college with at least some idea about what to do.

In a world that is rapidly shifting to 64-bit, it seems kind of counter productive to intentionally stagnate progress by keeping 32-bit only, while trying to prepare them for the future.

It'd be like teaching a kid how to run a marathon, but limiting them to the 100M dash.
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:53 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:02 pm
It'd be like teaching a kid how to run a marathon, but limiting them to the 100M dash.
Did the Romans run to Marathon while wearing flip flops? How many flip flops are in a Pi Zero?

To fully prepare today's students for the future, the next Pi Zero should have an 8-cubit quantum processor. Barring that, the present curriculum could be made much more forward looking if only there were a reliable software stack for GPU codes using the existing VC4 video hardware.
Last edited by ejolson on Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:54 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:02 pm
In a world that is rapidly shifting to 64-bit, it seems kind of counter productive to intentionally stagnate progress by keeping 32-bit only, while trying to prepare them for the future.
I don't see it that way at all.

Firstly, unless you're writing code at a very low level with manual optomisation for the CPU you're targeting it doesn't matter. Your development tools will handle this stuff for you.

Secondly, I very much doubt that the somewhat mythical average user understands what 64bit means and what difference it makes. When I moved to 64bit windows some years (and several versions) ago about the only real difference it made was that I could have more than 4GB of RAM and that some peripherals couldn't easily be used due to a lack of drivers. I'm sure there were others but they were mostly behind the scenes. Kids using scratch and python aren't going to notice the difference between 32 and 64 bit. Neither will most adults.

Thirdly, it depends on what you're trying to teach. Architecture specific skills or general skills that will be transferrable? Don't forget the main reason we have the Pi at all: computer enducation in the UK had degenerated to the level of job preperation. Kids were being taught how to use an OS (usually MS WIndows) and an office suite (usually MS Office) but nothing about what else computers can do and how they can make em do it.

Fourthly, there are a awful lot of Pi that can't do 64bit. RPF is a charity, RPT sells into customers who naver neither the budget nor the experience to handle the sort of migration you're suggesting. Large coporations? Sure. Schools and hobbists? Not so much.

Fithly, there are a lot more 32bit only Pi in the wild than there are 64bit capable ones. Abandoning all those users would not be a sound decision.
It'd be like teaching a kid how to run a marathon, but limiting them to the 100M dash.
Not really. It's more like the difference between teaching someone to drive in a 1L engined 3 door hatchback vs teaching someone to drive in a Formula One race car. One will have the basic skills that are transferable upwards. The other would be lost without all the high tech assistance and have no idea how to cope with public roads.
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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:31 am

thagrol wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:54 pm
Fithly, there are a lot more 32bit only Pi in the wild than there are 64bit capable ones.
I'm dubious about that. Everything from the Pi3B and Pi2Bv1.2 onward can run 64-bit. Given the rising sales, year on year, even if one could make a case that 32-bit only Pis are a majority now (which I doubt), it won't stay that way for very long.

Since the Pi3B launched in March 2016, that's just shy of 3.5 years (out of 7.5) that 64-bit capable Pis have been sold. The last number anyone gave was that a total 27 million Pis have been sold, and the current production rate is on the order of 5 million per year. My best SWAG would be that at least 15 million of the Pis sold by now can run 64-bit code, and quite possibly approaching 20 million of the 27 million total.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:20 am

I kind of like the zero as a bit of an underdog also enjoy threads like this.

I once tried to turn mine into a usb wifi adapter, I got it working as a usb gadget but never really got it fully working.

using cuberite I tried to run a minecraft server though it was painfully slow, thought it did work but just randomly crashed without any users connected so I abandoned that idea.

but right now I am using mine as a simple SSH development environment I connect to form a windows machine and then using it to learn either C or C++ have not decided which yet.

"but they can play 1080p videos without a desktop without breaking a sweat"
using which software? I remember having issues trying to stream hd video on a pi3, (edit:even had issues playing local without stutter at 1080p) but now wondering if other factors were coming into play maybe slow usb or something
Last edited by Leeloo on Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:35 am

I run a full Raspbian desktop on it, little trimmed down, and overclocked the zero.
I code on it.

All in all, it's a good enough desktop.
My only complaints are the slightly slow loading times of programs, the unusability of chromium or YouTube.
The last two would have worked if it only had an extra CPU core or thread.

Perhaps they can show 480p or 720p video with an optimized OS, like a media center is of kinds...
I haven't tried it, but I doubt it would play back 1080p.
At least, not all 1080p video.

Other people use it to learn about cluster servers.
Use it as a BitTorrent client, chat or web server,
Or for emulation games, like gb or gba, nes or SNES.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:43 am

Leeloo wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:20 am
"but they can play 1080p videos without a desktop without breaking a sweat"
using which software? I remember having issues trying to steam hd video on a pi3, wondering now if other factors were coming into play.
omxplayer and I didn't mention steaming (or even streaming).

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:31 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:31 am
thagrol wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:54 pm
Fithly, there are a lot more 32bit only Pi in the wild than there are 64bit capable ones.
I'm dubious about that. Everything from the Pi3B and Pi2Bv1.2 onward can run 64-bit. Given the rising sales, year on year, even if one could make a case that 32-bit only Pis are a majority now (which I doubt), it won't stay that way for very long.

Since the Pi3B launched in March 2016, that's just shy of 3.5 years (out of 7.5) that 64-bit capable Pis have been sold. The last number anyone gave was that a total 27 million Pis have been sold, and the current production rate is on the order of 5 million per year. My best SWAG would be that at least 15 million of the Pis sold by now can run 64-bit code, and quite possibly approaching 20 million of the 27 million total.
Pi3 launch, sales was at 8million,
Zero launch just before and launch sales was at 7million.
Pi3B+ release and sales was at 19million and they're way beyond that now.

I doubt many older Pi have been sold once the 3B had been in a while, other than for some backward compatibility setups.
Only real sales would be the Zero line. No idea how constant that has been.

Anyway, pretty sure the majority of Pi are 64 bit capable*. It would be industry that may need the 32bit capability still, but that's a different support group.


*(Given over 9million Pi3 had been sold last time anything was mentioned, i.e. Pi3B+ launch, that is more than the whole pre-Pi3 period.)

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:45 am

I don't use my Zero's too much anymore.
I have one setup as a partial and environment monitor.
And a other doing the same but with GNSS added.

Unfortunately they do it ok, but not that well. My NodeMCU setups are much better at it, though not as 'fun' for me.

I use one as a keyring as it looks 'cooler' than others.

I'll probably get one setup as a mqtt broker or node red device.
I did have a camera or two setup. But streaming isn't that fast compared to the larger Pi.

They where excellent when they where released, just Raspbian Desktop now needs more grunt and other solutions have moved in for cheaper and less power usage (data collection measurements).

I still use them where I need to collect to uSD card.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:19 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:31 am
thagrol wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:54 pm
Fithly, there are a lot more 32bit only Pi in the wild than there are 64bit capable ones.
I'm dubious about that. Everything from the Pi3B and Pi2Bv1.2 onward can run 64-bit. Given the rising sales, year on year, even if one could make a case that 32-bit only Pis are a majority now (which I doubt), it won't stay that way for very long.

Since the Pi3B launched in March 2016, that's just shy of 3.5 years (out of 7.5) that 64-bit capable Pis have been sold. The last number anyone gave was that a total 27 million Pis have been sold, and the current production rate is on the order of 5 million per year. My best SWAG would be that at least 15 million of the Pis sold by now can run 64-bit code, and quite possibly approaching 20 million of the 27 million total.
OK. So I was probably wrong here. Point retracted but that doesn't make my other points any less valid.
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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:42 pm

dickon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:56 pm
In my case, as a USB gadget, firing F1 into a notional keyboard buffer, to get around my router's braindead BIOS (with the classic 'CMOS corrupt -- press F1 to continue' cretinism) and flat battery after a powercut.
I am glad you mentioned that. I think it may also be a path to effecting auto-login when an OS insists on a password being entered on start-up.
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:16 pm
Think of something like a Pi4 SoC, but cut down to a single (or, at most, two) CPU core and using a smaller core like the A53. The question remains...Who is going to pay for the 7-figure development cost?
The RPT generates plenty of profit, multiple 7-figure amounts, and there is likely to be ROI as well to offset any outlay.

I would presume it's little different to having to fund all new Pi SoC development.

A 'Pi Zero 4W' doesn't need to have the same performance or capabilities as a Pi 4B; it suits a different target sector and can have reduced functionality. If there is a 4A then the whole range is covered; 4W, 4A and 4B.

Only those who won't accept that one has to pay more to have more will complain and insist a Zero 4W must have all the 4B has in a quarter of the size and at Zero W prices.

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Re: Uses for Raspberry Pi Zero/Zero W?

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:08 pm

hippy wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:42 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:16 pm
Think of something like a Pi4 SoC, but cut down to a single (or, at most, two) CPU core and using a smaller core like the A53. The question remains...Who is going to pay for the 7-figure development cost?
The RPT generates plenty of profit, multiple 7-figure amounts, and there is likely to be ROI as well to offset any outlay.

I would presume it's little different to having to fund all new Pi SoC development.

A 'Pi Zero 4W' doesn't need to have the same performance or capabilities as a Pi 4B; it suits a different target sector and can have reduced functionality. If there is a 4A then the whole range is covered; 4W, 4A and 4B.

Only those who won't accept that one has to pay more to have more will complain and insist a Zero 4W must have all the 4B has in a quarter of the size and at Zero W prices.
The RPT profits go back to the RPF. It is questionable that a 64-bit capable Pi0/Pi0W meets the goals of the RPF, so I really can't see the RPT funding even something as--possibly straightforward--as a cut down '2711 that could be used with PoP RAM, nor an upgraded '2835 that is 64-bit capable.

One could take as an example, the development of the BCM2836 or BCM2937, but with (probably) a single 64-bit capable CPU core.

I agree that an upgraded Pi0/Pi0W needn't have Pi4B performance. Indeed, it wouldn't even need Pi2Bv1.2 performance. However, the RPF/RPT does have a history of trying to price boards the same as what they directly replace, plus the whole point of the Pi0 was, "How cheap can you make an actual computer?" Therefore, I would see resistance to increasing the price of the replacement models. At those prices, amortizing any chip development work is going to be extremely hard.

Still...based on past experience, I have reasonable confidence that the RPT/RPF will come up with *some* means to achieve the end, though I wouldn't even begin to guess when it will happen.

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