glenk
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:33 am

Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:40 am

Hi Guys

I am looking to buy 3 - 4 Raspberry Pi 4 4GB boards for various projects.

It has been reported in various websites that there will be a future revision of the board that will fix the USB C power issue.

Does anyone have any insight into what the timeframe for this might be? If we are only talking weeks, which if I understand they are basically selling all of the devices from the factory as they are made, might be possible as there isn't much stock being held on hand, or are we likely talking many months?

I know I can get around this issue with the official power supply but I would prefer to have a revised board for future flexibility.

Regards Glen

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10995
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:35 am

The simplest power cable solution (if you don't want to use the RPF PSU), is to use an inexpensive cable. It's the fancy ones with built in chips that cause problems. I.e. Don't try to run your $35 Pi from your $60 Apple PSU.

As for when such a change happens... Nobody outside of the RPT knows, and they aren't talking. I suspect they're waiting to see if any other changes are needed or warranted. It is also moderately likely that there won't be any actual announcement when the changeover takes place. So, if you can make use of the Pi4Bs now, go ahead and get them and don't let the future put you in fear of the present.

spooker
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:52 pm

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:21 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:35 am
The simplest power cable solution (if you don't want to use the RPF PSU), is to use an inexpensive cable. It's the fancy ones with built in chips that cause problems. I.e. Don't try to run your $35 Pi from your $60 Apple PSU.

As for when such a change happens... Nobody outside of the RPT knows, and they aren't talking. I suspect they're waiting to see if any other changes are needed or warranted. It is also moderately likely that there won't be any actual announcement when the changeover takes place. So, if you can make use of the Pi4Bs now, go ahead and get them and don't let the future put you in fear of the present.
this is really ridiculous. The foundation messed up big time and should make an announcement when this is fixed with a new board revision.

jdb
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 2121
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:37 pm

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:36 am

spooker wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:21 am

this is really ridiculous. The foundation messed up big time and should make an announcement when this is fixed with a new board revision.
This is really tedious. People keep posting about being irate that the issue exists, not that they have found that their Pi 4 doesn't work because of this issue.
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

User avatar
HawaiianPi
Posts: 4737
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:53 am
Location: Aloha, Oregon USA

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:37 am

spooker wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:21 am
this is really ridiculous. The foundation messed up big time and should make an announcement when this is fixed with a new board revision.
Exaggerate much? :roll:

They didn't mess up big time, it's a minor inconvenience, with multiple simple solutions.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 3898
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:45 am

this is really ridiculous. The foundation messed up big time and should make an announcement when this is fixed with a new board revision.
Yep really messed up not allowing a $60 PS to power a $35 computer.
Their official PS works with Pi's, did they mess up by not making it run Apples?
Surely this is all Apple's fault?

Just think of it as a feature, no one is going to pinch your Apple PS to run a Pi4.
I have a $15 AUD PS that runs two 4's and two Zero's.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

jahboater
Posts: 4766
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:38 pm

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:46 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:37 am
They didn't mess up big time, it's a minor inconvenience, with multiple simple solutions.
And several million users have had no problems.

User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 15391
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:47 am

spooker wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:21 am
this is really ridiculous. The foundation messed up big time and should make an announcement when this is fixed with a new board revision.
Nonsense. This is a minor issue that only affects a few people who for some reason don't want to pay a few pound dollars for the proper power supply. Really almost a non-issue.

User avatar
neilgl
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: Near Aston Martin factory

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:23 pm

Yes, it is not much of an issue, so as a test I ran my pi4 from an Apple ipad air 3 charger, using a cheap USB-C cable that I use for my Galaxy S9+ phone - it worked perfectly.

User avatar
pi-tastic
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:34 pm

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:59 pm

you could always power it right from the GPIO
supply 3a 5.2volts to +5

the official PSU works great.
s-l400.jpg
s-l400.jpg (30.19 KiB) Viewed 1698 times
maccaps.com - bringing life to dead electronics.

User avatar
Imperf3kt
Posts: 2873
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:16 am
Location: Australia

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:50 pm

pi-tastic wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:59 pm
you could always power it right from the GPIO
supply 3a 5.2volts to +5

the official PSU works great.
s-l400.jpg
I think the arrangement of your image could be pushed into the middle of the text.
As it currently is, it looks like you are claiming the power supply in the picture is the official supply, which of course it is not.
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

User avatar
ehem
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:17 am

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:46 pm

glenk wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:40 am
Does anyone have any insight into what the timeframe for this might be? If we are only talking weeks, which if I understand they are basically selling all of the devices from the factory as they are made, might be possible as there isn't much stock being held on hand, or are we likely talking many months?
Strictly as an onlooker as I am not affiliated with the organization, there is some room for speculating a time-frame. Helpfully, eLinux.org has a time-frame with some dates towards the bottom. According to this information the initial 10K batch of revision 1 boards was announced on February 29th, while full production was announced in April. The revision 2 board was announced September 5th (thanks to Archive.org, since the link to http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1925 no longer works).

The official announcement was June 24th. Depending on which dates you consider comparable, 5 months would put revision 2 out in November, while 7 months would put revision 2 in January. This seems reasonably plausible.

One can also speculate that the 512MB version came out 3 months after that, which might place the 8GB version around April 2020.

Again, note I am speculating as I am not affiliated with the organization in any way. I'm merely finding publicly available historical dates and extrapolating them.


Now glenk, you've got to weigh your options. What is your cost of waiting an additional 1-3 months? Does that cost outweigh the benefit of getting one with a proper USB-C connector? I see distinctly less hassle from not having to worry about non-interchangeable USB-C power supplies, yet as I'm likely to use the official power supply that benefit is distinctly dubious. Meanwhile waiting means delaying the project which I have in mind which has a significant cost.

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:45 am
Surely this is all Apple's fault?
The Raspberry PI 4 incorrectly implemented part of the USB-C specification. That is the Raspberry PI Foundation's fault. For all the railing against smarter power supplies, making it less likely a dumb one will burn down your place of residence has distinct value.

chwe
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:35 pm

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:36 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:45 am
this is really ridiculous. The foundation messed up big time and should make an announcement when this is fixed with a new board revision.
Yep really messed up not allowing a $60 PS to power a $35 computer.
Their official PS works with Pi's, did they mess up by not making it run Apples?
Surely this is all Apple's fault?

Just think of it as a feature, no one is going to pinch your Apple PS to run a Pi4.
I have a $15 AUD PS that runs two 4's and two Zero's.
who did wrong here is obvious.. there's no way to blame someone else than RPT.. not even with but nobody will do blablabla.
They didn't follow the reference design/spec how power-sensing should be done and it turned out to be wrong. If people would not use 'apple psu's (and it doesn't matter if this is apple or not, also other 'more advanced' USB-C charges will fail) we would probably never figure this out.. But the fact that this came to the attention of a bunch of us just shows that people actually use the 60$ PSU to power their RPi, so you can't say that nobody will do this. It was tried, it doesn't work for them and obviously they're not happy with the situation.
rpdom wrote:
spooker wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:21 am
this is really ridiculous. The foundation messed up big time and should make an announcement when this is fixed with a new board revision.
Nonsense. This is a minor issue that only affects a few people who for some reason don't want to pay a few pound dollars for the proper power supply. Really almost a non-issue.
they have a proper power supply which follows the USB-C specification. There's no reason to blame apple nor apple PSU users for RPT did a mistake when designing their power circuit. I was wrong, it was acknowledged that they did wrong and for sure the next board revision (not major update like a 4b+ or whatever follows) should address it. Mistakes happen, it's not the first one and it wont be the last one. It's IMO not a terrible one but never the less there's no reason to blame the people using such a PSU nor the company which provides such a PSU. It wasn't their fault that the implementation doesn't follow USB-C specs.

User avatar
Imperf3kt
Posts: 2873
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:16 am
Location: Australia

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:51 am

If it bothers you that much and you have a soldering iron on hand and a few cents to spare buying a resistor...
You can fix it yourself.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 5#p1526692
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

User avatar
jcyr
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:31 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:54 am

jdb wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:36 am
People keep posting about being irate that the issue exists, not that they have found that their Pi 4 doesn't work because of this issue.
What I understand from this thread is that some are irate the RPT is unwilling to provide any form of time estimate for a correction they have indicated is trivial. The standard "just go buy an official power supply" response, when they already have a USB compliant supply, would also likely irritate.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23878
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:20 am

Whilst it could be argued that the mistake was trivial, just a missing resistor, the fix is far from it, it requires a new PCB to be designed and tested, it requires the channel be flushed etc so there's an awful lot of delay in getting a new board revision out.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

LTolledo
Posts: 2012
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:29 am
Location: Anime Heartland

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:45 am

Who is requiring (or forcing) who to specifically use phone or tablet chargers to power their RPi4B?
what document/manual/(or government ordinance) that specifically instruct users to do this? (links please)
how did they arrive with this instruction?
when was these documents released?

"....like trying to run your petrol engine car using diesel fuel.... then complaining to the maker that the car wont start....
...then ask the car maker for revision time table to be able to use both petrol and diesel on the same car...."
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

Some people be like:
"Help me! Am drowning! But dont you dare touch me nor come near me!"

User avatar
jcyr
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:31 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:33 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:20 am
Whilst it could be argued that the mistake was trivial, just a missing resistor, the fix is far from it, it requires a new PCB to be designed and tested, it requires the channel be flushed etc so there's an awful lot of delay in getting a new board revision out.
Understood. However this is a low risk update and I'm sure the RPT has a fairly good understanding of the timeline for the process and delays involved. I don't think folks are saying "we want it now", but rather an estimate of "when?". Personally I think it's much ado about nothing, but these USB-C threads persist.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

User avatar
jcyr
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:31 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:45 pm

LTolledo wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:45 am
Who is requiring (or forcing) who to specifically use phone or tablet chargers to power their RPi4B?
https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/ra ... fications/
No one is forced to do anything. The only requirement is that one adhere to the specification.
"....like trying to run your petrol engine car using diesel fuel.... then complaining to the maker that the car wont start....
...then ask the car maker for revision time table to be able to use both petrol and diesel on the same car...."
Not at all like that!

But we are flogging a dead horse. The issue is understood and there are simple workarounds... The only thing left folks can bitch about is the lack of timeframe.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23878
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:00 pm

Not sure what difference knowing when the change will percolate through will make. People who want a fixed board will need to wait until it's out, whether they know the date or not. From our point of view, demand is still outstripping supply, so sales are not affected. My presumption is that we won't announce it but just let the manufacturing change over as supply lines adjust. There is bound to be a period when the old and fixed device are both on sale. But I am not privy to the plans so take that with a pinch of salt.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 15391
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:12 pm

I'm slightly surprised that no one has started marketing a cheap adaptor that gets around the issue. A simple USB-C socket, two resistors and USB-C plug. Maybe there just isn't enough demand for it.

User avatar
HawaiianPi
Posts: 4737
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:53 am
Location: Aloha, Oregon USA

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:19 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:00 pm
There is bound to be a period when the old and fixed device are both on sale. But I am not privy to the plans so take that with a pinch of salt.
Yup, and this is the problem with announcing any date. People will assume that purchases after that date will be the new board revision, and then more chaos and complaining happens as the remaining old stock ships. Or they will only want the new board and dealers will have trouble selling off their older inventory (I'm sure the click-bait news media will play a big role in the latter problem).

Not announcing the change until all old stock has depleted, if that can be verified in some way, is the smart play.

Although I suppose old stock could be bundled in kits with the PSU... :?
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

User avatar
jcyr
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:31 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:23 pm

rpdom wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:12 pm
I'm slightly surprised that no one has started marketing a cheap adaptor that gets around the issue. A simple USB-C socket, two resistors and USB-C plug. Maybe there just isn't enough demand for it.
Nit picking... Only a single resistor would be required. :-)
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10995
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:29 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:00 pm
Not sure what difference knowing when the change will percolate through will make. People who want a fixed board will need to wait until it's out, whether they know the date or not. From our point of view, demand is still outstripping supply, so sales are not affected. My presumption is that we won't announce it but just let the manufacturing change over as supply lines adjust. There is bound to be a period when the old and fixed device are both on sale. But I am not privy to the plans so take that with a pinch of salt.
That's been pretty much my assumption about how it will work. I might also speculate that there might be other--minor--revisions while the PCB layout is being reworked. The only--and again, minor--item of interest would be if the board revision will be marked on the board so that one can easily tell at a glance which PCB version one is dealing with. (Mind you, this won't affect me either way. Not owning any Apple or other "smart" USB-C devices, I'm running Pi4Bs exclusively with RPF USB-C PSUs.)

User avatar
HawaiianPi
Posts: 4737
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:53 am
Location: Aloha, Oregon USA

Re: Timeframe for USB C power board revision

Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:07 pm

rpdom wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:12 pm
I'm slightly surprised that no one has started marketing a cheap adaptor that gets around the issue. A simple USB-C socket, two resistors and USB-C plug.
I think you'd just need to connect a single resistor to ground in the cable/adapter (which would be even simpler).

Maybe there just isn't enough demand for it.
That's really the issue.

How many of those would you expect to sell?

And would it be inexpensive enough to justify the cost (significantly cheaper than a dumb cable or official PSU)?

I think I have some USB-C sockets and plugs in the parts bin ... if I can find them (and some spare time) I'll look into an external solution (not in terms of an actual product, but more of a proof of concept).
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

Return to “General discussion”