takyon
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:08 pm

When I was testing the 4 GB model, I didn't get Raspbian RAM use to much past 2 GB. But I didn't fully test it before gifting it away, and I'm sure I could have used up all the RAM eventually simply by opening up more browser tabs. It's not uncommon for me to have ~60 open at once (and I would do more if it wasn't for the 2 GB on my system). When I get my next RPi 4, I will max out that RAM chip, no problem.

4 GB will help the gaming potential of the RPi 4 and future models, especially since that amount is shared with the GPU.

4 GB is the "value upgrade" since $10 gets you +1 GB and $20 gets you +3 GB. 2 GB is the regret price point, but 1 GB is just fine for many use cases.

If/when an 8 GB option is offered for a future model (don't @ me lol), it could muscle out 1 GB from the lineup. 2/4/8 at $35/?/? could make sense since any 1 GB or 2 GB RPi could be replaced by a 2 GB baseline model. If RAM prices had continued to trend downwards instead of remaining at or above ~2012 prices, we could have had 16 GB instead of 4 GB in systems. That didn't happen, but we are seeing 12 GB and likely 16 GB LPDDR4/5 packages for smartphones, so 8 GB will not be so outlandish in a few years.

MalPi
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:25 pm

HawaiianPi wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:56 pm
Pimoroni has 35 in stock at the time of this post...
Arrghhh,
thanks for the heads-up, but I was too late on parade, all sold ! :(

Note to self : pay more attention sooner lol!

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scruss
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:04 pm

I managed to score a 4GB in person at Micro Center in Mayfield Heights, OH yesterday. Sure, it was the kit (board, case, psu, cables, card, keyboard and mouse - US$120). They had two left. They had quite a number of 2GB and 1GB ones. The Raspberry Pi 4 isn't on display, you have to ask for it. They have a good maker section and unlike the Micro Center in St Louis, MO, the stock is in some semblance of order.

I got the 4GB as a green desktop replacement. It's one I can leave on and access via VNC from anywhere.
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HawaiianPi
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:18 pm

MalPi wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:25 pm
Arrghhh,
thanks for the heads-up, but I was too late on parade, all sold ! :(

Note to self : pay more attention sooner lol!
Yea, 2 hours after I posted that there was only 1 left. Gotta move fast to get one.

EDIT:
Looks like Okdo has them: https://www.okdo.com/shop/raspberry-pi/ ... aspberrypi
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:00 pm

takyon wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:08 pm
When I was testing the 4 GB model, I didn't get Raspbian RAM use to much past 2 GB. But I didn't fully test it before gifting it away, and I'm sure I could have used up all the RAM eventually simply by opening up more browser tabs. It's not uncommon for me to have ~60 open at once (and I would do more if it wasn't for the 2 GB on my system). When I get my next RPi 4, I will max out that RAM chip, no problem.
60? That's six row of tabs on my desktop here! Why? Just use bookmarks! So much easier.
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HawaiianPi
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:20 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:00 pm
60? That's six row of tabs on my desktop here! Why? Just use bookmarks! So much easier.
LOL! My GF does that. She'll actually have multiple different browsers open (Chrome, Firefox, Edge) with 50+ tabs on each. :roll:

And don't get me started on her Desktop (which is covered in files and shortcuts). :x
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

takyon
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:52 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:00 pm
takyon wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:08 pm
When I was testing the 4 GB model, I didn't get Raspbian RAM use to much past 2 GB. But I didn't fully test it before gifting it away, and I'm sure I could have used up all the RAM eventually simply by opening up more browser tabs. It's not uncommon for me to have ~60 open at once (and I would do more if it wasn't for the 2 GB on my system). When I get my next RPi 4, I will max out that RAM chip, no problem.
60? That's six row of tabs on my desktop here! Why? Just use bookmarks! So much easier.
I'd say it helps me work faster than bookmarks would (not that I don't use tons of those), prevents the closely related problem of "bookmark clutter", and makes it less likely for me to forget about news articles and other content I've recently viewed and need to refer back to, since the titles or website favicons are staring me in the face.

pagenotfound
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:25 am

jamesh wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:00 pm
takyon wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:08 pm
When I was testing the 4 GB model, I didn't get Raspbian RAM use to much past 2 GB. But I didn't fully test it before gifting it away, and I'm sure I could have used up all the RAM eventually simply by opening up more browser tabs. It's not uncommon for me to have ~60 open at once (and I would do more if it wasn't for the 2 GB on my system). When I get my next RPi 4, I will max out that RAM chip, no problem.
60? That's six row of tabs on my desktop here! Why? Just use bookmarks! So much easier.
Get a 16:9 monitor already. And use a smaller font up there. And put that "list all tabs" button in the tab row. Or use vertical tabs. Or tab grouping. Or both..

Strictly speaking, nobody needs tabs at all. But if you keep going on those pages, the tab method can be a lot faster than picking the bookmarks out of literally thousands and loading the pages again and logging in and entering data and checking boxes. You're less likely to overlook or forget something. Browsers will even remember the set of tabs you had last time and in which order, and each with its full history. Power users will give you many more reasons.

And that''s why non-programmers want the 4GB model instead of the 2GB model that works for you.

takyon
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:29 am

pagenotfound wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:25 am
And that''s why non-programmers want the 4GB model instead of the 2GB model that works for you.
I'm pretty sure many programmers would appreciate 1 terabyte of RAM or non-volatile universal memory on their future desktops/SBCs on which they write, compile, and execute code, particularly if that amount becomes as cheap as 1-4 GB is right now.

If you are using it to control a sprinkler system, you don't even need 1 GB, but as a primary desktop computer, more is better. Terabytes of memory would enable crazy use cases. Like holding data for all of the stars in the galaxy in memory for a simulation program.

More memory can enable more wasteful behavior and zillions of browser tabs, or things that are impossible or not feasible right now. A doubling of RAM for $10 and waiting a few extra weeks seems to be an easy sacrifice to make in this case, and definitely allows you to do more with your Pi.

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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:21 am

takyon wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:29 am
pagenotfound wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:25 am
And that''s why non-programmers want the 4GB model instead of the 2GB model that works for you.
I'm pretty sure many programmers would appreciate 1 terabyte of RAM or non-volatile universal memory on their future desktops/SBCs on which they write, compile, and execute code, particularly if that amount becomes as cheap as 1-4 GB is right now.

If you are using it to control a sprinkler system, you don't even need 1 GB, but as a primary desktop computer, more is better. Terabytes of memory would enable crazy use cases. Like holding data for all of the stars in the galaxy in memory for a simulation program.

More memory can enable more wasteful behavior and zillions of browser tabs, or things that are impossible or not feasible right now. A doubling of RAM for $10 and waiting a few extra weeks seems to be an easy sacrifice to make in this case, and definitely allows you to do more with your Pi.
I think you are missing the point of the Pi. If you want enough memory to do this sort of thing, then the Pi is simply not the right device. You need a 64 core 1TB RAM machine! Just having huge amounts of RAM on a relatively low CPU power devices doesn't make much sense except in some specific use cases.

More wasteful behaviour is not the right attitude! It's why the planet is knackered!

And I still think huge numbers of tabs is a crazy idea, but each to their own!
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kennyc
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:37 am

"More wasteful behaviour is not the right attitude! It's why the planet is knackered!

And I still think huge numbers of tabs is a crazy idea, but each to their own!"

Yes. This.... :| :cry: :geek:
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webbsmurfen
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:11 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:21 am
...
... If you want enough memory to do this sort of thing, then the Pi is simply not the right device. You need a 64 core 1TB RAM machine! Just having huge amounts of RAM on a relatively low CPU power devices doesn't make much sense except in some specific use cases.

More wasteful behaviour is not the right attitude! It's why the planet is knackered!
Hmm.. Actually on a x86 system i seldom uses more than 8Gb. So 8Gb on a SoC is waisted thing, unless you have some kind of server Running, that demands that amount of ram
Last edited by webbsmurfen on Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

6by9
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:41 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:21 am
I think you are missing the point of the Pi. If you want enough memory to do this sort of thing, then the Pi is simply not the right device. You need a 64 core 1TB RAM machine! Just having huge amounts of RAM on a relatively low CPU power devices doesn't make much sense except in some specific use cases.

More wasteful behaviour is not the right attitude! It's why the planet is knackered!

And I still think huge numbers of tabs is a crazy idea, but each to their own!
*whistles quietly to himself whilst looking at the 5 Firefox windows that are open on my laptop, with 186, 505, 418, 953, and 259 tabs respectively*
Perhaps I ought to rationalise them somewhat....
(The laptop is an i7 with 16GB of RAM)
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webbsmurfen
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:48 am

6by9 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:41 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:21 am
I think you are missing the point of the Pi. If you want enough memory to do this sort of thing, then the Pi is simply not the right device. You need a 64 core 1TB RAM machine! Just having huge amounts of RAM on a relatively low CPU power devices doesn't make much sense except in some specific use cases.

More wasteful behaviour is not the right attitude! It's why the planet is knackered!

And I still think huge numbers of tabs is a crazy idea, but each to their own!
*whistles quietly to himself whilst looking at the 5 Firefox windows that are open on my laptop, with 186, 505, 418, 953, and 259 tabs respectively*
Perhaps I ought to rationalise them somewhat....
(The laptop is an i7 with 16GB of RAM)
Overkill maybee :D I Have 2 Crome windows with total amount of 12 tabs

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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:00 am

6by9 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:41 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:21 am
I think you are missing the point of the Pi. If you want enough memory to do this sort of thing, then the Pi is simply not the right device. You need a 64 core 1TB RAM machine! Just having huge amounts of RAM on a relatively low CPU power devices doesn't make much sense except in some specific use cases.

More wasteful behaviour is not the right attitude! It's why the planet is knackered!

And I still think huge numbers of tabs is a crazy idea, but each to their own!
*whistles quietly to himself whilst looking at the 5 Firefox windows that are open on my laptop, with 186, 505, 418, 953, and 259 tabs respectively*
Perhaps I ought to rationalise them somewhat....
(The laptop is an i7 with 16GB of RAM)
You are all completely mad!
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pik33
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:01 am

They have RPi4/4G in Kamami/Poland: they are still available since last days of July. I have one of them on my desk now,, ordered in Friday.
1 terabyte of RAM
:) :) :) :)
640 kB ought to be enough for anybody
1980 - 16 kB
1990 - 1 MB
2000 - 64 |MB
2010 - 1 GB
2019 - 16 GB

... let's interpolate :) 2030... 256 GB ... 2040 - 4 TB

Its about 21 years=about 7 generatins of RPi :)


So... in 2040 we will have a new RPi 11 with 1 TB of RAM )

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davidcoton
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:01 am

6by9 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:41 am
*whistles quietly to himself whilst looking at the 5 Firefox windows that are open on my laptop, with 186, 505, 418, 953, and 259 tabs respectively*
How on earth do you find the tab you want amongst 2320 others? Some clever index/search application?
I thought my 15 tabs in Firefox was bad.
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rpdom
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:36 am

6by9 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:41 am
*whistles quietly to himself whilst looking at the 5 Firefox windows that are open on my laptop, with 186, 505, 418, 953, and 259 tabs respectively*
Perhaps I ought to rationalise them somewhat....
(The laptop is an i7 with 16GB of RAM)
Insane you are, hmm? ;-)

I occasionally have 2 Firefox windows and 1 Chrome windows open with no more than 25 tabs total on my 16GB 4 core i5 laptop.
Or 1 Firefox window with up to 15 tabs on my 4GB 1 core Celery laptop (and that is struggling sometimes).

The Pi 4B 4GB is somewhere between the two. Definitely much better than the Celeron laptop :)
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hippy
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:15 pm

6by9 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:41 am
*whistles quietly to himself whilst looking at the 5 Firefox windows that are open on my laptop, with 186, 505, 418, 953, and 259 tabs respectively*
I know I am at the other extreme of the spectrum, hate tabs, will enable "open in same window" whenever I can for browsers and file managers, will close apps rather than park them on the task bar when I am done with them, but I just can't see why one would even want that, how it's usable, useful, or how one even handles that 'overload' when there are so many.

takyon
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:54 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:21 am
takyon wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:29 am
pagenotfound wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:25 am
And that''s why non-programmers want the 4GB model instead of the 2GB model that works for you.
I'm pretty sure many programmers would appreciate 1 terabyte of RAM or non-volatile universal memory on their future desktops/SBCs on which they write, compile, and execute code, particularly if that amount becomes as cheap as 1-4 GB is right now.

If you are using it to control a sprinkler system, you don't even need 1 GB, but as a primary desktop computer, more is better. Terabytes of memory would enable crazy use cases. Like holding data for all of the stars in the galaxy in memory for a simulation program.

More memory can enable more wasteful behavior and zillions of browser tabs, or things that are impossible or not feasible right now. A doubling of RAM for $10 and waiting a few extra weeks seems to be an easy sacrifice to make in this case, and definitely allows you to do more with your Pi.
I think you are missing the point of the Pi. If you want enough memory to do this sort of thing, then the Pi is simply not the right device. You need a 64 core 1TB RAM machine! Just having huge amounts of RAM on a relatively low CPU power devices doesn't make much sense except in some specific use cases.

More wasteful behaviour is not the right attitude! It's why the planet is knackered!
My comment is speculating about a hypothetical future scenario where that amount would add no significant cost to the Pi. e.g. you get 1 TB of memory for no more than $55 (instead of $5,000).

That scenario might actually be plausible in 15-20 years, if a universal memory technology can match DRAM's speed and endurance, and NAND's density and cost. 1 TB of NAND is dropping to $80 right now, and will likely reach $20 within 5-10 years. If a NAND replacement inherits the same manufacturing techniques, it could have anywhere from 256 to thousands of layers right out of the "gate".

So if you had 1 TB of memory in a $55 SBC, would that be a waste? For some users, certainly. Others will figure out how to use all of it.

You can apply this to more reasonable targets, like a $35 Pi with 8 GB of memory. It's only wasteful if you use it wastefully.

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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:18 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:00 am
You are all completely mad!
I agree. Right now, I have Firefox open with 5 tabs. After I read whatever I find interesting here, I will open a 6th to read miscellaneous news. I may--very occasionally--have one or two more, but the 5 I have up now are my "default".

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Imperf3kt
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:13 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:18 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:00 am
You are all completely mad!
I agree. Right now, I have Firefox open with 5 tabs. After I read whatever I find interesting here, I will open a 6th to read miscellaneous news. I may--very occasionally--have one or two more, but the 5 I have up now are my "default".
As someone with over 3000 tabs open across multiple devices, it's time.

You find a link that catches your eye - open it to look at it later after you finish reading the page you're on. Maybe you find several links before reading the entire webpage.

But later never comes, life gets on the way. You have other responsibilities.

The next day, rinse and repeat.

Eventually you find more tabs open than you have time to sort - entire websites have come and gone, in the time some of my tabs are still open. The website is no more, but I do not have time to find and close all the tabs from it.
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

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jbeale
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:50 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:13 pm
As someone with over 3000 tabs open across multiple devices,
Well, I learn something new every day. I'm typing this on a Chromebook shared by 4 people and it seldom exceeds 10 open tabs. I guess everyone has their own way of managing things!

scaramonga
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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:56 am

takyon wrote:

It's only wasteful if you use it wastefully.
I agree.

On a PC, some may argue that 64/128Gb RAM is ludicrous, and it may be?, but if one is running a host with 24 VM clients, then maybe not? ;)

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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:34 am

scaramonga wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:56 am
takyon wrote:

It's only wasteful if you use it wastefully.
I agree.

On a PC, some may argue that 64/128Gb RAM is ludicrous, and it may be?, but if one is running a host with 24 VM clients, then maybe not? ;)
Would you be running 24 VM's on a Raspberry Pi? Use the tool for the job, spec the tool for the job.
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Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
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