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Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:19 am
by LTolledo
TL:DR :mrgreen:

going back to topic....any projection when the supply leveling off with the demand? ;)

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:13 am
by jamesh
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:19 am
TL:DR :mrgreen:

going back to topic....any projection when the supply leveling off with the demand? ;)
Given the huge numbers we are making, and the production shift to favour 4GB, and the large demand....no, no idea! I've sure some people have an inkling, but I am not privy. Months rather than weeks would be my guess.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:41 pm
by LTolledo
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:13 am
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:19 am
TL:DR :mrgreen:

going back to topic....any projection when the supply leveling off with the demand? ;)
Given the huge numbers we are making, and the production shift to favour 4GB, and the large demand....no, no idea! I've sure some people have an inkling, but I am not privy. Months rather than weeks would be my guess.
Oh oh...might as well really wait until the holidays then.... don't want to deal with some "black market" sources anyway....
having none (any variant) is somewhat "keeping me out of the loop" at the moment..... :|

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:50 pm
by jamesh
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:41 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:13 am
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:19 am
TL:DR :mrgreen:

going back to topic....any projection when the supply leveling off with the demand? ;)
Given the huge numbers we are making, and the production shift to favour 4GB, and the large demand....no, no idea! I've sure some people have an inkling, but I am not privy. Months rather than weeks would be my guess.
Oh oh...might as well really wait until the holidays then.... don't want to deal with some "black market" sources anyway....
having none (any variant) is somewhat "keeping me out of the loop" at the moment..... :|
You should be able to order at any time and get within a sane timescale - I was talking about the time when you can buy and definitely get next day delivery from most suppliers.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:09 pm
by pica200
Why i bought the 4 GB model:
It's advertised as desktop computer and what comes to mind first running on one? A browser! Chromium/Firefox already take 1-2 GiB alone when you visit a few big and bloaty sites. This is in part due to them spawning new processes for every single tab or Add-on to enforce insulation.
The Pi 4 should also be a good and energy efficient machine for compiling stuff over night when it's not important to finish quickly.

And the people saying 4 GB is unnecessary forgot one thing which i saw no one mention here. RAM is never wasted. Everything you don't use serves as filesystem cache speeding up reads and writes massively ;)

And in my opinion there should at least be an official 64 bit kernel for the ARMv8 Pis so users have the option to run 64 bit software if they want (and take advantage of the improved instruction set for software which benefits from it). The 32 bit userland can still be default. No harm there ;)

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:43 pm
by drgeoff
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:19 am
TL:DR :mrgreen:

going back to topic....any projection when the supply leveling off with the demand? ;)
When demand reduces. It won't remain at current "must have" level indefinitely.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:33 pm
by W. H. Heydt
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:13 am
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:19 am
TL:DR :mrgreen:

going back to topic....any projection when the supply leveling off with the demand? ;)
Given the huge numbers we are making, and the production shift to favour 4GB, and the large demand....no, no idea! I've sure some people have an inkling, but I am not privy. Months rather than weeks would be my guess.
In other words...typical--and probably unavoidable consequence--of a new Pi launch.

Every time I see the thread title, my reaction is, "Well, duh!"

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:41 pm
by W. H. Heydt
pica200 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:09 pm
And the people saying 4 GB is unnecessary forgot one thing which i saw no one mention here. RAM is never wasted. Everything you don't use serves as filesystem cache speeding up reads and writes massively ;)
I don't think anyone has said that the Pi4B4 is "unnecessary", only that it's not needed for *every* use case. The debate really comes down to the degree to which one might expect people (in general) to know when 4GB is needed and when it is not. I have a use for several Pis for which I'm considering whether to go with Pi2Bv1.2 (which can certainly handle the job) or Pi4B1 (also adequate).
And in my opinion there should at least be an official 64 bit kernel for the ARMv8 Pis so users have the option to run 64 bit software if they want (and take advantage of the improved instruction set for software which benefits from it). The 32 bit userland can still be default. No harm there ;)
The problem--at least as I see it--is two-fold. First, it would require the RPF/RPT to maintain two versions at least at the kernel level. Not necessarily twice the work, but certainly more than only one kernel. Second, there are several models of Pi--some in common use--that simply can not run a 64-bit OS, even if it's just the kernel. One of those has a guarantee that it will be in production (and that implies software support) for at least another 3 or 4 years. Find the RPT as fully suitable and cost equivalent replacement for the BCM2835, *then* start talking about a move to 64-bit.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:42 pm
by W. H. Heydt
drgeoff wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:43 pm
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:19 am
TL:DR :mrgreen:

going back to topic....any projection when the supply leveling off with the demand? ;)
When demand reduces. It won't remain at current "must have" level indefinitely.
That has to be balanced against the spread of knowledge that Pis even exist.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:00 pm
by Fraoch
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:42 pm
That has to be balanced against the spread of knowledge that Pis even exist.
The Pi4 is the first Pi truly capable of desktop use. Word may be getting out.

People new to the Pi from the Windows world are trained to think more RAM is always better. So they order the 4 GB version.

They're unaware that Raspbian is highly optimized for low RAM usage. They can't conceive of a desktop using anything less than 4 GB of RAM, and even 4 GB may feel uncomfortable.

I can certainly appreciate all the hard work the devs did in getting Raspbian Buster as efficient as it is - it runs on my 1B, just barely.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:35 pm
by jamesh
Fraoch wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:00 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:42 pm
That has to be balanced against the spread of knowledge that Pis even exist.
The Pi4 is the first Pi truly capable of desktop use. Word may be getting out.

People new to the Pi from the Windows world are trained to think more RAM is always better. So they order the 4 GB version.

They're unaware that Raspbian is highly optimized for low RAM usage. They can't conceive of a desktop using anything less than 4 GB of RAM, and even 4 GB may feel uncomfortable.

I can certainly appreciate all the hard work the devs did in getting Raspbian Buster as efficient as it is - it runs on my 1B, just barely.
I wonder if we should have priced the 4GB version a bit higher! $65 maybe?

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:49 pm
by rpdom
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:35 pm
I wonder if we should have priced the 4GB version a bit higher! $65 maybe?
I probably wouldn't have bought a Pi4 if you had. The current price was stretching my budget a lot. I could have gone for a smaller memory version, but didn't really want to.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:50 pm
by Fraoch
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:35 pm
I wonder if we should have priced the 4GB version a bit higher! $65 maybe?
LOL, well if people really feel they need 4 GB without doing their research to determine if they really need it, might as well make some profit! :)

It's their prerogative if they want 4 GB or more, but if they want it and need it they should pay for it.

Yes, perhaps $55 was too much of a good deal to pass up for most people!

To me, efficient use of RAM is interesting and requires skill on the programmers' and developers' parts. It's amazing that Buster will run on ~250 MB of RAM.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:08 pm
by pica200
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:41 pm
I don't think anyone has said that the Pi4B4 is "unnecessary", only that it's not needed for *every* use case. The debate really comes down to the degree to which one might expect people (in general) to know when 4GB is needed and when it is not. I have a use for several Pis for which I'm considering whether to go with Pi2Bv1.2 (which can certainly handle the job) or Pi4B1 (also adequate).
There is more behind the decisions though. I bet many have the future in mind where software keeps growing and eating more RAM. Investing more now means investing less in the future. It will work longer with common software --> less electronics waste and such. The Pi 4 is probably my last one for a good while since i own 4 in total now :mrgreen:
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:41 pm
The problem--at least as I see it--is two-fold. First, it would require the RPF/RPT to maintain two versions at least at the kernel level. Not necessarily twice the work, but certainly more than only one kernel. Second, there are several models of Pi--some in common use--that simply can not run a 64-bit OS, even if it's just the kernel. One of those has a guarantee that it will be in production (and that implies software support) for at least another 3 or 4 years. Find the RPT as fully suitable and cost equivalent replacement for the BCM2835, *then* start talking about a move to 64-bit.
There is not much to do after the initial fix marathon of drivers. After that it's just building the kernel twice. I think that's a worthwhile tradeoff for giving the user a choice. In fact there is an unofficial kernel floating around and it's working with a few limitations.
Where did i say move? I meant there should be an option for a 64 bit kernel. The 32 bit one needs to stay of course for the ARMv6/7 models until they go out of support which will be quite a few more years.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:53 pm
by takyon
Fraoch wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:00 pm
People new to the Pi from the Windows world are trained to think more RAM is always better. So they order the 4 GB version.
Fraoch wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:50 pm
LOL, well if people really feel they need 4 GB without doing their research to determine if they really need it, might as well make some profit! :)
Wow, check out all the RAM shaming.

More RAM makes an SBC useful in more situations. But if you want to brag about running software on a headless potato, more power to you.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:58 pm
by W. H. Heydt
pica200 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:08 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:41 pm
I don't think anyone has said that the Pi4B4 is "unnecessary", only that it's not needed for *every* use case. The debate really comes down to the degree to which one might expect people (in general) to know when 4GB is needed and when it is not. I have a use for several Pis for which I'm considering whether to go with Pi2Bv1.2 (which can certainly handle the job) or Pi4B1 (also adequate).
There is more behind the decisions though. I bet many have the future in mind where software keeps growing and eating more RAM. Investing more now means investing less in the future. It will work longer with common software --> less electronics waste and such. The Pi 4 is probably my last one for a good while since i own 4 in total now :mrgreen:
I'm up to 4 Pi4Bs...so far. The use I have in mind for the 1GB boards requires running the desktop and a single instance of PuTTY. This doesn't take a lot of RAM. The reason that the Pi2Bv1.2 is in the running is itself a "future proofing" act, as those boards could run a 64-bit OS, unlike the Pi2Bv1.1 boards that are in current use. The virtue of the Pi2B is no WiFi. (And yes, I do mean that.) So even though the price is the same, it will really be a considered decision with neither one having a overwhelming advantage.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:14 pm
by davidcoton
takyon wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:53 pm
running software on a headless potato,
This is a Raspberry forum, not a Potato one.

But part of the Raspberry Pi ethos has been to do as much as possible with minimal hardware (and thus the lowest possible price). Maybe the 4GB Pi4B will mark a move away from this, back to the "throw hardware at it" solution to IT problems.

I hope not. Remember an engineer is a person who can do for a bob (5p) what any idiot can do for a quid (£1).

Oh, and BTW, the Pi2B v1.2 does have a 64-bit processor, same as the Pi3 models.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:27 pm
by drgeoff
davidcoton wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:14 pm
takyon wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:53 pm
running software on a headless potato,
This is a Raspberry forum, not a Potato one.
That it is a Raspberry forum does not deter many turnip-heads from posting here. :)

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:36 pm
by takyon
davidcoton wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:14 pm
takyon wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:53 pm
running software on a headless potato,
But part of the Raspberry Pi ethos has been to do as much as possible with minimal hardware (and thus the lowest possible price). Maybe the 4GB Pi4B will mark a move away from this, back to the "throw hardware at it" solution to IT problems.
We all got hit by several years of stagnation in the RAM market. In fact, the stagnation has lasted from about 2012 to 2019, or the entire history of the Raspberry Pi. The $45 and $55 models bypass that issue by allowing buyers to throw more money at it. But if 2 GB, 4 GB, 8 GB, 32 GB, 1 TB, etc. of RAM were to cost the same as 1 GB does right now, the $35 base model would likely include that much.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ra ... 206-5.html
Q: What features would you like to have on the Raspberry Pi 5? Also are there any features in your mind that make you say, "It would be great if we had it, but alas, we cannot"?

Eben Upton: The interesting thing is that really our feature set hasn't changed since Raspberry Pi 3B in 2016: newer models just have "more" of everything, even if all of that "more" sometimes stacks up to a more qualitative change (e.g. from "not a PC" to "a PC"). I suppose Raspberry Pi 5, whenever it arrives, is likely to just have more of everything. One hope is that over the next few years we see enough decline in RAM prices to allow us to fit more memory into the baseline $35 device.
12 GB LPDDR packages for smartphones are available, and 16 GB is coming soon. In a decade, there will be higher capacities, and possibly universal memory with density similar to NAND.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:42 pm
by kennyc
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:42 pm
drgeoff wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:43 pm
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:19 am
TL:DR :mrgreen:

going back to topic....any projection when the supply leveling off with the demand? ;)
When demand reduces. It won't remain at current "must have" level indefinitely.
That has to be balanced against the spread of knowledge that Pis even exist.
Oh wait...I get it....it's like Descartes, "I Rasp therefore I am"

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:45 pm
by davidcoton
kennyc wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:42 pm
Oh wait...I get it....it's like Descartes, "I Rasp therefore I am"
Not quite.
Raspberries Pi, therefore they are.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:16 am
by Andyroo
davidcoton wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:45 pm
kennyc wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:42 pm
Oh wait...I get it....it's like Descartes, "I Rasp therefore I am"
Not quite.
Raspberries Pi, therefore they are.
Nice. How about:
It is not enough to have a good Pi; the main thing is to use it well.

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:42 am
by Pimaxin
Which place is best to buy for the US?

I need three 4gb board only but CanaKit is only one in stock but limit 1 and shipping is $14! That would cost me $42 to ship 3x separately!

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:30 am
by HawaiianPi
Pimaxin wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:42 am
Which place is best to buy for the US?

I need three 4gb board only but CanaKit is only one in stock but limit 1 and shipping is $14! That would cost me $42 to ship 3x separately!
Everyone that will ship in a timely fashion is limited to one per order (some say one per household). Sellers like Newark who will let you order quantities are so far back-ordered you probably won't receive them this year (not kidding or exaggerating).

If you need three of the 4GB models any time soon, you will probably have to make 3 orders from US sellers, or buy from a UK seller (Okdo is showing in stock, and you can order up to 5).

Re: 4gb - 4B Demand must be high.

Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:38 am
by Imperf3kt
I'm not sure about the fees involved, but Australian retailers are also an option and the official resellers allow up to 10 per order.

Though, our prices are higher than they should be and I'm not sure about stock of the 4GB model. Should be some around September, but that's probably going to disappear just as fast as elsewhere.