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american-pi
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Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:49 pm

a little bit ago i purchased:
$45 PI4B 2gb
$9 Micro Hdmi cable
$10 Raspi USBC PSU
$19 Raspi Keyboard
$8 sd card 128gb
$11 samsung usb fit 32gb usb 3.1
$8 PI4b Case

So why did i end up deciding to return this.

well I already own about (12) Zero w's
I have a 3B+ inside the 7" official screen.
With the Official Rear installed.

i have 2 other 3b+'s
Just upgraded all my 3B+'s to buster. Nuke and reinstall as that seemed to be the easiest way.

4k - main feature for me, with the Pi4B, 4k Performance GUI was not good.
in 1080p it works pretty great... how ever in 1080p the 3b+ works just about as good.
SD card performance is still only about 22mb/s not any better than the 3b+
Micro HDMI - is annoying - any way you shape it.
No builtin solution for the heat, In regards to the bare board or the official case.
COST, after all was said and done i was @ damm near $100
Realization of what you can buy these days for $100 around there is vast.
Reality - tech is cheap these days, its not enough to say "its only $35"

I picked this quad core atom x86 tablet up, installed ubuntu 18, its amazing.
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bomblord
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:49 pm

Returning your Pi because you can get a tablet that might fit your needs better for the same price of the hardware + optional accessories is fine but but to who/why are you justifying this?

A few nitpicks I have though.

Performance when compared to the Pi 3b at 1080p is a massive gap. I'm not sure what method you are using as a comparison but I used the Pi3B as my main desktop and had to lower the resolution to 540p and limit myself to 2 opens tabs in order to get smooth performance web browsing. Web browsing on my pi 4 on the other hand never even hitches at 2560x1080 and I can actually use youtube unlike the pi3.

An atom x5 barely runs Windows and I doubt Linux will fair much better for a lot of people although you can certainly find something with lower system requirements it may or may not support the hardware. I've owned an atom X5 tablet (Hp Envy Note 8) and had issues installing Linux ranging from not recognising some of the hardware to every version I tried being absolutely horrid with a touch screen. My current pi 4 setup absolutely blows that tablet away in terms of smoothness and usability.
Last edited by bomblord on Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IrishBrewer
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:15 pm

Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:54 pm

That's funny because I bought one of those tablets and it played movies and games nice but I had to return it because it was so difficult to get to the GPIO pins.

Leeloo
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:53 pm

Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:36 pm

I was kind of interested in the Pi4 but had been holding off for a few reasons rather than jump in .

first wanting to see peoples feedback on the new ports usb and hdmi ports (not a big fan, still hope for a revision with more common port types)

secondly predictions that memory prices this year will drop by upto 40% and I want to see if that trickles down to the pi, given the price difference between the 1gb and 4gb models 40% could be substantial cut.

about the GPIO I would put money on the average pi user not even having interest init, would suggest they even do a PI4 without the gpio header pins soldered like what they did with the zero to save a few $$$

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american-pi
Posts: 14
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:44 pm

This Atom x5-Z8350
is an extremely powerful cpu!
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... 2-ghz.html

18.04 LTS was an absolute pleasure to install... the built in On Screen Keyboard is fantastic!
-- This thing is FAST!, The touch screen is responsive and enjoyable to use.

Using the Gnome CPU Frequency extension is a pleasure! I can peg it at 1.9 ghz if i want to.
Might get only slightly warm to the touch after some odd hours.

battery life is pretty great as well!

I have 12 Zero w's, i can velcro one to the back when i need some GPIO.

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davidcoton
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Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:49 pm

Leeloo wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:36 pm
still hope for a revision with more common port types
Robert Louis Stevenson, Virginibus Puerisque, 1881 wrote:to travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive
I suggest that you will be happier living in hope and never buying a Pi4.
Leeloo wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:36 pm
about the GPIO I would put money on the average pi user not even having interest init, would suggest they even do a PI4 without the gpio header pins soldered like what they did with the zero to save a few $$$
Why? There is a good case for omitting the header on the Pi0, because it saves an extra soldering stage in manufacture.
There is no such argument with the Pi4 with components on both sides of the board.
Do you have any research indicating the percentage of Pi owners who use the header? I am fairly sure RPF/T do.
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american-pi
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:50 pm

I bought this beast of a machine, also has 18.04 LTS and talk about a pleasurable 4k experience!
not to mention a full HDMI and last almost 8 hours on a charge with all day use. installed 128gig ssd! best 19 bucks ever spent!
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bomblord
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:54 pm

american-pi wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:44 pm
This Atom x5-Z8350
is an extremely powerful cpu!
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... 2-ghz.html

18.04 LTS was an absolute pleasure to install... the built in On Screen Keyboard is fantastic!
-- This thing is FAST!, The touch screen is responsive and enjoyable to use.

Using the Gnome CPU Frequency extension is a pleasure! I can peg it at 1.9 ghz if i want to.
Might get only slightly warm to the touch after some odd hours.

battery life is pretty great as well!

I have 12 Zero w's, i can velcro one to the back when i need some GPIO.
I'm happy that you're happy but that CPU is outperformed by a core 2 duo it's not remotely fast. Also happy that you have managed to work around the limitations of tablet linux but it's a pain for me.

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american-pi
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:01 pm

if you want Linux or Mac os to run good on your x86 hardware. You kind of have to choose the hardware for the os, not the other way around.

andrum99
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:02 pm

Leeloo wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:36 pm
I was kind of interested in the Pi4 but had been holding off for a few reasons rather than jump in .

first wanting to see peoples feedback on the new ports usb and hdmi ports (not a big fan, still hope for a revision with more common port types)

You won't see a change to the micro-HDMI ports - that was the only way they could squeeze two HDMI outputs onto a board that size. Yes, it's a bit annoying, but it just means you need to use an adaptor (or two).
Leeloo wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:36 pm
secondly predictions that memory prices this year will drop by upto 40% and I want to see if that trickles down to the pi, given the price difference between the 1gb and 4gb models 40% could be substantial cut.

The only time the price of a particular model of Pi has changed was when it was superseded by a newer model, and it has only happened with a couple of models. So it won't change just because DRAM prices drop. Also, Raspberry Pi need to make money to fund their charitable aims - something a lot of people seem to forget.
Leeloo wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:36 pm
about the GPIO I would put money on the average pi user not even having interest init, would suggest they even do a PI4 without the gpio header pins soldered like what they did with the zero to save a few $$$

Removing the GPIO header on the Pi 4 would actually cost money, as you would then have 6 different models of Pi 4 instead of 3. That would bump up manufacturing costs because you've added an extra complication to the manufacturing process. It would also add extra complexity for distributors and retails.
Last edited by andrum99 on Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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american-pi
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:03 pm

have fun powering a core2duo with 2 watts :)

wren
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 9:06 pm

Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:06 pm

>$8 PI4b Case
There's your problem. Even with no case and a tiny heat sink, I've seen mine get up to 75C under heavy load. If you had yours in there, it was probably throttling nonstop.

Leeloo
Posts: 47
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:11 pm

Do you have any research indicating the percentage of Pi owners who use the header? I am fairly sure RPF/T do.
do they publish the numbers ? specify things like education or consumer, how do they know people at home are using the header? are they collecting "telemetry"?

anyway I would still put money on people using pi's as kodi boxes, web browsers or emulation stations probably aren't using the GPIO for anything substantial, how do I know? because I have used a Pi for all of the above and even had one as a small home server and never had to touch the gpio!

guess you could make a case for classic gamepad support, you can 'build' an interface but why, when you could do it easier for a few dollars over usb ? not saying gpio is useless just most basic use scenarios wouldn't need it. also keep in mind that omitting the GPIO header pins doesn't mean the GPIO interface is unusable.
Why? There is a good case for omitting the header on the Pi0, because it saves an extra soldering stage in manufacture.
hopefully not implying it is 'free' to add 40 gold plated pins onto the main board ? if I want them after market to add myself to the zero it costs $4 from amazon!

if the pi is all about designed to be as cheap as possible then at least having these pins optional would made sense? again removing the pins doesn't stop people using GPIO, it just makes it more catered towards advanced users
Last edited by Leeloo on Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Imperf3kt
Posts: 2978
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Location: Australia

Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:15 pm

I suspect the root cause of your troubles is a fake micro sd card
A legitimate 128GB card will not cost only $8
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epoch1970
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Location: Paris, France

Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:16 pm

I had to look for what this product was and I have to say I wasn’t too successful.
But basically this is a micro center brand, as I understand the TW102 took the world by storm sometime in 2018, and now they have to get rid of the inventory because it is discontinued.
It is a windows tablet, but since the design is generic I suppose Linux can run amazing on it.
Microcenter has a forum, you could find a few fellow TW102 users there, I didn’t see many at first glance.

Now you have a tablet and a Pi, surely you can get a firm grasp of what differentiates a consumer product like a tablet, from an education and engineering platform like the Pi.
Past that, how much time you’ll spend using either is a matter of preference.
"S'il n'y a pas de solution, c'est qu'il n'y a pas de problème." Les Shadoks, J. Rouxel

Leeloo
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:23 pm

You won't see a change to the micro-HDMI ports - that was the only way they could squeeze two HDMI outputs onto a board that size. Yes, it's a bit annoying, but it just means you need to use an adaptor (or two).
i saw someone suggested they could be stacked like the usb ports, that would work right ?
Removing the GPIO header on the Pi 4 would actually cost money, as you would then have 6 different models of Pi 4 instead of 3
maybe the lower ram prices will give them wiggle room todo this? :D or maybe not :lol: so does it only cost more because they have to stock more? couldn't they do something like have no gpio version to order like a waiting list or something?

maybe they could do a zero 2 or something ? but in the meantime I will keep my eye on the pi(4) :lol:
A legitimate 128GB card will not cost only $8
good catch, I see lots of 64 for around that, the cheapest 128gb costs around $8 more and money on it not being great / fast, though he never said new
Last edited by Leeloo on Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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american-pi
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:29 pm

this same sd card get 66 mb/s with my dell's built in sd card reader.
and i have been buying these sd card from microcenter for about 4 years, never had a failure, the only issue is when i download CoinJunkie 128gb image it is a little too big as the formatted cap usually varies from card to card.
some cards are 126.5 gb some are a few gigs less, the 128gig coinjunky image needs 127.5gb minor annoyance but other then that the MS SD cards have been rock solid, in regards to reliability and performance, -- for a class 10 card.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:29 pm

You cannot stack the hdmi, they'd rip the board apart - apparently, I personally don't know, I tried snapping a thin piece of pcb last night and it took a LOT of force.
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dickon
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Location: Home, just outside Reading

Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:31 pm

Leeloo wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:11 pm
Do you have any research indicating the percentage of Pi owners who use the header? I am fairly sure RPF/T do.
do they publish the numbers ? specify things like education or consumer, how do they know people at home are using the header? are they collecting "telemetry"?

anyway I would still put money on people using pi's as kodi boxes, web browsers or emulation stations probably aren't using the GPIO for anything substantial, how do I know? because I have used a Pi for all of the above and even had one as a small home server and never had to touch the gpio!
I find it very useful, even for Pis that otherwise do other things: the media player in my livingroom has a DS18B20 attached, which reports the temperature to the machine which runs the heating system. Saves me an awful lot of gas, as it can make intelligent decisions on when to turn the boiler on.

The one in the loft which actually runs everything has four. It's all very, very handy.

Even if you're just running a Pi for media playback, I strongly suggest sticking a 1-wire 18B20 on it, as you get that data for more or less free.

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davidcoton
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:33 pm

Leeloo wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:11 pm
do they publish the numbers ?
Of course not. Very few companies publish their market research. Why should they?
Leeloo wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:11 pm
anyway I would still put money on people using pi's as kodi boxes, web browsers or emulation stations probably aren't using the GPIO for anything substantial, how do I know? because I have used a Pi for all of the above and even had one as a small home server and never had to touch the gpio!
Don't judge the market by your own experience.
Don't try to make a living backing your hunches, at least not without your own research.
Leeloo wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:11 pm
Why? There is a good case for omitting the header on the Pi0, because it saves an extra soldering stage in manufacture.
hopefully not implying it is 'free' to add 40 gold plated pins onto the main board ? if I want them after market to add myself to the zero it costs $4 from amazon!

if the pi is all about designed to be as cheap as possible then at least having these pins optional would made sense? again removing the pins doesn't stop people using GPIO, it just makes it more catered towards advanced users
It costs nothing like $4 to add a 40pin header to a board with components of both sides during manufacture, allowing for parts and process. Probably not even 40c. But the cost is significant on a Pi0, mainly because of the extremely high process cost (relative to Pi0 sale price).
The Pi (except for the Pi0) is NOT "all about designed to be as cheap as possible". It is about their mission goals.
Remember the RPF mission is computer education -- programming and interfacing.
Removing the GPIO header impacts that significantly, exactly by being "more catered towards advanced users"

If you think you can do a better job than RPF, go ahead and do it. Just read my advice about not backing your hunches first.
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american-pi
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:38 pm

I apologize i was slightly off on my pricing with the 128gb sd card.

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dickon
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:47 pm

american-pi wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:38 pm
I apologize i was slightly off on my pricing with the 128gb sd card.
I'm still not sure what your point is.

Your tablet won't run my Z-Wave network, won't do 4K video playback, won't do monitoring of my BLE Ruuvitags, won't monitor my greenhouse, won't be a wifi AP, and certainly won't do all that in ~5W, with PoE.

There are better machines out there for certain workloads and less money than the Pi. We knew that. No need to crow about it here.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:59 pm

IrishBrewer wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:54 pm
That's funny because I bought one of those tablets and it played movies and games nice but I had to return it because it was so difficult to get to the GPIO pins.
+1 for the laugh of the day. Stick around here, you'll go far.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:04 pm

Leeloo wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:36 pm
I was kind of interested in the Pi4 but had been holding off for a few reasons rather than jump in .

first wanting to see peoples feedback on the new ports usb and hdmi ports (not a big fan, still hope for a revision with more common port types)
Don't count on it. It's a matter of space.
secondly predictions that memory prices this year will drop by upto 40% and I want to see if that trickles down to the pi, given the price difference between the 1gb and 4gb models 40% could be substantial cut.
The price drops have already occurred. DRAM manufacturers are cutting back production for that reason (among others), so prices probably won't go down much further, it at all. It's a good bet that the RPT got the best prices they could locked in for as long as possible. That means that further price drops (if any) aren't likely to reduce the price of the boards, but they will also be immune (for a while) to any price increases.

andrum99
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Re: Why i had to take back my PI4B.

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:05 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:49 pm
There is no such argument with the Pi4 with components on both sides of the board.
Nothing to do with having components on both sides of the board. It's to do with the fact that the Pi 4 already has other pin-through-hole components on it. (They're the ones with legs that go through the circuit board).

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