techskies11
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Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:30 am

I was wondering when using a supported 64 bit os would the GPIO work, I like raspian but I prefer 64 bit for the new pi 4 release I don’t want the 32 bit OS, i understand the reasoning but i prefer 64 bit OS, I was looking at Ubuntu mate

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B.Goode
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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:46 am

This is probably the most advanced implementation presently available: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 6&t=244478

As for 'supported'. By Raspberry Pi themselves? Who knows - they don't pre- announce.

But the CEO is on record as saying it isn't a priority.

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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:56 am

techskies11 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:30 am
I was wondering when using a supported 64 bit os would the GPIO work, I like raspian but I prefer 64 bit for the new pi 4 release I don’t want the 32 bit OS, i understand the reasoning but i prefer 64 bit OS, I was looking at Ubuntu mate
Just being curious - what are the reasons you are saying you don't want 32bit OS? (And by OS I suspect you're talking about Linux in this case - not any OS)

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:12 am

But the CEO is on record as saying it isn't a priority.
That was before there was a Pi4 out in the wild?

Pi3 and 4's will be the dominate Pis in sales volume from now?

I know they are playing with 64bit Raspbian, at least a few guys are, is it official or just personal interest?.
If you think about it they have three Raspbian versions now.
Do they add 3 more or just one basic 64bit OS?

If they just did a Lite version everyone could add their own desktop?
Those that want 64bit are they capable of doing this themselves or want to be spoon fed?

The Pi4 seems have grabbed the attention of new Raspbians, some are vocal about this.
Time will tell, some of the third party guys are saying they are working on it.
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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:51 am


jamesh
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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:15 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:12 am
But the CEO is on record as saying it isn't a priority.
That was before there was a Pi4 out in the wild?

Pi3 and 4's will be the dominate Pis in sales volume from now?

I know they are playing with 64bit Raspbian, at least a few guys are, is it official or just personal interest?.
If you think about it they have three Raspbian versions now.
Do they add 3 more or just one basic 64bit OS?

If they just did a Lite version everyone could add their own desktop?
Those that want 64bit are they capable of doing this themselves or want to be spoon fed?

The Pi4 seems have grabbed the attention of new Raspbians, some are vocal about this.
Time will tell, some of the third party guys are saying they are working on it.
3B+ has dominated sales for some time, although the Zero still doos very well.

We have been actively discussing it, but no official time being spent on it (bit busy on Pi4 launch fixups). However, we do help out those who are asking 64bit questions on github, which will be useful in the future.

32 bit userland 64 bit kernel will probably be the first milestone. The work required to get a 64 bit userland working, with vchiq and things like the camera, is considerable. Since this work cannot be done unless you have access to the firmware codebase, third party efforts will certainly have issues with some of the stuff that need to talk to the GPU.
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:50 am

32 bit userland 64 bit kernel will probably be the first milestone. The work required to get a 64 bit userland working, with vchiq and things like the camera, is considerable. Since this work cannot be done unless you have access to the firmware codebase, third party efforts will certainly have issues with some of the stuff that need to talk to the GPU.
That will probably satisfy most users, but as we all know by now some people are never satisfied.
And some 64bit people don't care about the camera or acceleration or h264 or ......
But if that 32bit userland stuff works then some people will be happier.

Not sure if there is a big embedded Pi camera market but any vision stuff, AI,ML now seems to be trending towards 64bit.
I don't even know if one core can run 32 while the others run in 64bit?
And for vision data would be better in raw form anyway.

Any new VC6 OpenCL will be 32bit?
Lots still to be learned.


Play with the low hanging fruit like those new uarts, i2c first.
32 bit userland 64 bit kernel will probably be the first milestone.
Is that like the reverse of Sakaki's nspawn Raspbian?

32bit apps in 64bit OS?
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 4&t=211260
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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:32 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:50 am
32 bit userland 64 bit kernel will probably be the first milestone. The work required to get a 64 bit userland working, with vchiq and things like the camera, is considerable. Since this work cannot be done unless you have access to the firmware codebase, third party efforts will certainly have issues with some of the stuff that need to talk to the GPU.
That will probably satisfy most users, but as we all know by now some people are never satisfied.
And some 64bit people don't care about the camera or acceleration or h264 or ......
But if that 32bit userland stuff works then some people will be happier.

Not sure if there is a big embedded Pi camera market but any vision stuff, AI,ML now seems to be trending towards 64bit.
I don't even know if one core can run 32 while the others run in 64bit?
And for vision data would be better in raw form anyway.

Any new VC6 OpenCL will be 32bit?
Lots still to be learned.


Play with the low hanging fruit like those new uarts, i2c first.
32 bit userland 64 bit kernel will probably be the first milestone.
Is that like the reverse of Sakaki's nspawn Raspbian?

32bit apps in 64bit OS?
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 4&t=211260
We are quite familiar with the concept of not being able to satisfy everyone.

Those who do not need to be cameras or to talk to the GPU directly could get away with any of the current crop of third party 64bit distros.

We sell a lot of cameras. And don't forget, writing code properly means that you can usually run it on 32 or 64 with just a recompile. Lack of 32 bit support in apps that have moved to 64 bit is a sign of laziness by the people behind it. Not only that but you can write code that handles 64bit data perfectly well in 32bits. Having 64bit data does not mean you need a 64bit build/OS.
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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:45 pm

Laziness?
Lack of resources (time, people, money, knowledge)
Though also stubborn or just not wanting to support 32bit, or actual demand.

The first option may well be the main reason, as I know you (RPT) are well aware is often the main reason.

I wouldn't call it laziness in most cases.

Otherwise laziness is obviously why you don't have a 64bit fully up and running OS, when we know that's not the reason.
Almost 3 1/2 years you've had 64bit hardware.

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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:57 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:12 am
But the CEO is on record as saying it isn't a priority.
That was before there was a Pi4 out in the wild?



No. After the announcement of the Raspberry Pi 4 Model B.

For the citation, see my reply in this previous similar thread: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... n#p1487913

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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:32 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:45 pm
Laziness?
Lack of resources (time, people, money, knowledge)
Though also stubborn or just not wanting to support 32bit, or actual demand.

The first option may well be the main reason, as I know you (RPT) are well aware is often the main reason.

I wouldn't call it laziness in most cases.

Otherwise laziness is obviously why you don't have a 64bit fully up and running OS, when we know that's not the reason.
Almost 3 1/2 years you've had 64bit hardware.
Writing the code and assuming 64 bit ints, instead of using int32_t or int64_t is lazy. Assuming pointers are a specific size is lazy. Not to say I have never written code like that - I have!

What we have is a 32 bit userland that was developed 10 years ago, and the similar assumption, that int is 32 bit or that void * is 32 bit was made then. Now perhaps being 10 years go that was a safe assumption, but it was still a mistake. And could be regarded as lazy, or at least not forward thinking.
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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:39 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:32 pm
Writing the code and assuming 64 bit ints, instead of using int32_t or int64_t is lazy. Assuming pointers are a specific size is lazy. Not to say I have never written code like that - I have!
The reasons I want a 64b OS are quite simple: reading and writing files is a lot easier on a 64b process, as you just mmap() the thing and forget about it. You can't do that with big files on a 32b system, as you run out of address space rather quickly.
What we have is a 32 bit userland that was developed 10 years ago, and the similar assumption, that int is 32 bit or that void * is 32 bit was made then. Now perhaps being 10 years go that was a safe assumption, but it was still a mistake. And could be regarded as lazy, or at least not forward thinking.
I wouldn't call it lazy. You had a relentlessly 32b SoC, with a 32b CPU, and 32b GPU, with all that that implies. That you can boot more recent models into 64b mode is actually quite impressive.

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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:16 pm

dickon wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:39 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:32 pm
Writing the code and assuming 64 bit ints, instead of using int32_t or int64_t is lazy. Assuming pointers are a specific size is lazy. Not to say I have never written code like that - I have!
The reasons I want a 64b OS are quite simple: reading and writing files is a lot easier on a 64b process, as you just mmap() the thing and forget about it. You can't do that with big files on a 32b system, as you run out of address space rather quickly.
What we have is a 32 bit userland that was developed 10 years ago, and the similar assumption, that int is 32 bit or that void * is 32 bit was made then. Now perhaps being 10 years go that was a safe assumption, but it was still a mistake. And could be regarded as lazy, or at least not forward thinking.
I wouldn't call it lazy. You had a relentlessly 32b SoC, with a 32b CPU, and 32b GPU, with all that that implies. That you can boot more recent models into 64b mode is actually quite impressive.
So you mean files > 4GB? Fairly unusual except in the video domain I would have thought. But easy enough to abstract the difficulty away, leaving the main application bit agnostic.
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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:16 pm
dickon wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:39 pm
The reasons I want a 64b OS are quite simple: reading and writing files is a lot easier on a 64b process, as you just mmap() the thing and forget about it. You can't do that with big files on a 32b system, as you run out of address space rather quickly.
So you mean files > 4GB? Fairly unusual except in the video domain I would have thought. But easy enough to abstract the difficulty away, leaving the main application bit agnostic.
I mostly deal with big video assets, so yes.

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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:47 pm

dickon wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:39 pm
The reasons I want a 64b OS are quite simple: reading and writing files is a lot easier on a 64b process, as you just mmap() the thing and forget about it.
I think you might find that read() is faster than mmap() and has been for some some time.

There was a time, long ago, when the UNIX "cp" command was simply mmap() followed by a single write() !
Now it reads and writes 128KB blocks (see strace).

The mmap option for grep has gone.

Also read() works for all kinds of files such as pipes and tty's which can be handy.

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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:15 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:45 pm
Laziness?
Lack of resources (time, people, money, knowledge)
Though also stubborn or just not wanting to support 32bit, or actual demand.

The first option may well be the main reason, as I know you (RPT) are well aware is often the main reason.

I wouldn't call it laziness in most cases.

Otherwise laziness is obviously why you don't have a 64bit fully up and running OS, when we know that's not the reason.
Almost 3 1/2 years you've had 64bit hardware.
And what about all those BCM2835 Pis out there that *can't* run 64-bit? Also noted above is that the Pi0/Pi0W are still selling well, so a full move to 64-bit would cut them off at the knees. The alternatives are either finding a way to make a 64-bit capable Pi0/Pi0W or supporting two versions of Raspbian.

Even if a 64-bit capable Pi0/Pi0W came out tomorrow, there would still have to be 32-bit support at least until the original CM goes EoL in 2023. So there's your *minimum* time line.

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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:28 pm

jahboater wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:47 pm
I think you might find that read() is faster than mmap() and has been for some some time.
That I didn't know.
There was a time, long ago, when the UNIX "cp" command was simply mmap() followed by a single write() !
Now it reads and writes 128KB blocks (see strace).

The mmap option for grep has gone.

Also read() works for all kinds of files such as pipes and tty's which can be handy.
Yeah, but I have some rather specific use-cases, where mmap() makes much more sense. I'm surprised read() is faster, though.

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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:48 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:15 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:45 pm
Laziness?
Lack of resources (time, people, money, knowledge)
Though also stubborn or just not wanting to support 32bit, or actual demand.

The first option may well be the main reason, as I know you (RPT) are well aware is often the main reason.

I wouldn't call it laziness in most cases.

Otherwise laziness is obviously why you don't have a 64bit fully up and running OS, when we know that's not the reason.
Almost 3 1/2 years you've had 64bit hardware.
And what about all those BCM2835 Pis out there that *can't* run 64-bit? Also noted above is that the Pi0/Pi0W are still selling well, so a full move to 64-bit would cut them off at the knees. The alternatives are either finding a way to make a 64-bit capable Pi0/Pi0W or supporting two versions of Raspbian.

Even if a 64-bit capable Pi0/Pi0W came out tomorrow, there would still have to be 32-bit support at least until the original CM goes EoL in 2023. So there's your *minimum* time line.
Support both, obviously it's lazy not too.
that was the point.

I know the reasons and a lot of it is manpower.


P.S. I don't need 64bit, I'm perfectly happy with the status quo, but I do have a concern that if somebody optimized for 64bit decides that the way they wish to go and not supporting 32bits is considered lazy. Especially if they're a one man band writing it. They put their resources in getting it to working with a 64bit environment, why should they bother testing it for a 32bit system.

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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:46 am

Too early to tell?
My crystal ball say we will have lots of 32 and 64 bit OS's for Pi's,
I can predict that without batteries in the ball.

I don't "need" a 64bit OS except when I want to learn Aarch64 assembly coding ;)
For AI/ML etc some people (experts) say some assembler tweaking may need to be done to get the best performance.
Almost the first thing I did with a Pi 64bit OS was compile (needed another expert's help) ARM's Compute Library.
Hopefully for this lazy coder a decent Pi AI/ML/NN library with acceleration will be off the shelf one day.

Everything must run Raspbian so RPF needs to support that on every Pi?
I don't use Raspbian for new developments on single core Pi's, have not for years.
So you could say 32bit Raspbian is not important for me.
Laziness?
Lack of resources (time, people, money, knowledge)
I will own up to all the above, which is why I use Pi's.
Everything else is too hard for this one man band.

So why am I even looking at making my own OS in Ultibo, duh because I can.
And because I can see an advantage in single purpose OS's that can customised for each gadget I make
I don't actually need a multiuser OS for that.

So are there any single user/single purpose OS's for Pi's?
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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:51 pm

satadru is working on an Ubuntu 19.10 arm64 builder: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 46e8ff8d63

I'm looking for Ubuntu 18.04 LTS myself, going to try to rework satadru's system using that instead.

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Re: Third party OS using pi 4

Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:52 am

Lots of Pi stuff has now gone up stream, it might be harder to do older versions.
The new Linux5.3 has some extra Pi stuff, ditto for Mesa3D.
But thanks to those few there is a trail to follow, good luck.
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