techskies11
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Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:36 am

Usually I don’t like to buy the first batch or version of a hardware release due to various reasons and they tend to fix a lot of issues the second version that comes around? Does the pi 4 suffer any design issues

szapo
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:58 am

The question is, do you NEED it now?

Of course there is no 100% certainty of a flawless product.
We have been working with it for nearly a week now and had no issues so far, except high CPU temperatures (because we really take it to the limit) but a firmware update is on its way.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:03 am

techskies11 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:36 am
Usually I don’t like to buy the first batch or version of a hardware release due to various reasons and they tend to fix a lot of issues the second version that comes around? Does the pi 4 suffer any design issues
The only Pis that ever went through any noticeable hardware revisions were the original Model B and the Pi2B. The issues on the Model B revolved around having (and getting rid of) polyfuses to limit the current draw for each USB port. The ultimate revision was to the Model B+. The Pi2B was revised to used a lower clocked version of the Pi3B SoC, hence the differences between the Pi2Bv1.1 and Pi2Bv1.2. On related hardware, the RPF 7" screen had the controller revised as backlight control (other than on or off) didn't work on the original version.

tl;dr Don't expect any revisions to the Pi4B hardware.


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Gavinmc42
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:57 am

Does the pi 4 suffer any design issues
This is the 4th revision of the board and 2nd? version of the chip.
And the er? what number Pi model, 10th, 12th?

Get this Pi4, it the best one so far, by far.
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jahboater
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:09 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:57 am
Get this Pi4, it the best one so far, by far.
+1

The only reason not to get a Pi4 now is because demand is so ridiculously high that its often out of stock.

Moonmarch
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:11 am

When you said the next PI4 revision, I assume you meant the next release of the RPI computers, well based on the RPI computers released in the past a new RPI computer should be released next year, supposedly a new product is released at least once a year on average now this does not mean the next RPI computer will replace the RPI4B.

The RPI computers in the past were released in several different form factors the original RPI computer being the largest, the main difference between the RPI computer models would be the price tag, and with every new release of the RPI computers you would expect to see overall faster computer performance with other miscellaneous improvements, the same as any other computer you can purchase at the store, tablets, phones, laptops, etc.

jamesh
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:06 am

techskies11 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:36 am
Usually I don’t like to buy the first batch or version of a hardware release due to various reasons and they tend to fix a lot of issues the second version that comes around? Does the pi 4 suffer any design issues
Almost every problems fixed is fixed using software. Which is upgradeable in the field.

Occasionally we do slight board revisions to fix minor niggles, but it's rare, so you would be in for a long wait.
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Imperf3kt
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:53 pm

jahboater wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:09 am
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:57 am
Get this Pi4, it the best one so far, by far.
+1

The only reason not to get a Pi4 now is because demand is so ridiculously high that its often out of stock.
Depends where you live. I ordered one yesterday at 12:15 and it arrived 20 minutes ago.
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binaryhermit
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:00 pm

There is the resistor issue that makes the Pi4 not work with many USB-PD chargers apparently.

wildfire
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:03 pm

binaryhermit wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:00 pm
There is the resistor issue that makes the Pi4 not work with many USB-PD chargers apparently.
Link please?

FWIW a charger IS NOT a power supply unit.
NF


wildfire
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:17 pm

Thanks, it is concerning but for me not an issue.

For others who are worried stick with the official power supply.
NF

ejolson
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:32 am

binaryhermit wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:00 pm
There is the resistor issue that makes the Pi4 not work with many USB-PD chargers apparently.
While there is no point in rehashing the initial problems people had with the 3B and 3B+, from the general response on these forums the 4B appears to be the best designed and received Pi since the 2B. Even so, I have decided to wait until a 64-bit operating system is available, but I'm having trouble waiting.

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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:49 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:57 am
Does the pi 4 suffer any design issues
This is the 4th revision of the board and 2nd? version of the chip.
And the er? what number Pi model, 10th, 12th?

Get this Pi4, it the best one so far, by far.
The Model B went through at least 3 revisions of varying degrees of being noticed. Four if you count the Rev. 2.0 change from 256MB RAM to 512MB. Five if you also want to count the B+ as a "revision" of the Model B. The Pi2B was "revised" by swapping out the SoC in favor of the Pi3B SoC. As for the SoCs themselves...the only one that was "revised" was the change from the BCM2837A0 to the BCM2837B0 when the board also went from the Pi3B to the Pi3B+. Other than that, the various SoCs were, to a fair degree, independent of each other.

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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:00 am

Moonmarch wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:11 am
When you said the next PI4 revision, I assume you meant the next release of the RPI computers, well based on the RPI computers released in the past a new RPI computer should be released next year, supposedly a new product is released at least once a year on average now this does not mean the next RPI computer will replace the RPI4B.

The RPI computers in the past were released in several different form factors the original RPI computer being the largest, the main difference between the RPI computer models would be the price tag, and with every new release of the RPI computers you would expect to see overall faster computer performance with other miscellaneous improvements, the same as any other computer you can purchase at the store, tablets, phones, laptops, etc.
My extremely fuzzy crystal ball says that the most likely next products would be a CM4 and *maybe* a Pi4A. I wouldn't expect a Pi5B for at least 2 years, more likely 3, and possibly 4. A Pi5B will depend on finding a new SoC and pretty much all the low hanging fruit has been picked, plus a fair amount of the stuff higher up. There are very few things I can think of that might be both beneficial and *potentially* feasible. One of those isn't under control of the RPT. That would be further sharp drops in the price of DRAM making larger memory models feasible (though I'm really not sure what on Earth one would need--say--8GB RAM on a Pi for, but I'm sure someone out there thinks he needs it). The others are a faster version of the PCIe lane and adding at least one more such lane, even at the current speed. Those would both have minimal performance effects, though the CM Forum folks are already drooling over the prospect of having a raw PCIe lane exposed on a CM4, and some of them appear to be under a misaprehension that Pi4 SoC has more than one (from what I've read, it doesn't).

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:11 am

The pi5b has apparently already been started on.

Let's wait until it comes out before speculating on it.
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Moonmarch
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:53 am

I assumed the purpose of the smaller RPI computer designs was cheaper price point, which means you can purchase a larger quantity at a time, and lower power consumption, the RPI zero has 1 CPU core, the RPI3 has 4 cores, which is the reason why the RPI3/RPI4 computers can be considered desktop replacements, talking about the costs, the smaller RPI computers are more disposable, these computers will not have as many features in comparison to the standard RPI computer.

The smaller RPI computers would be sold in larger quantities, not primarily as a desktop replacements, will still be compatible with the RPI operating system or software, and should have a faster computer compared to the previous RPI computers, which is the reason why people can wait for the next RPI model to be released, do not know what is going to be released next either.

A reason to wait to purchase a RPI4, people can wait for more accessories to be released, cases, heat sinks, touch screens, software releases, etc.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:15 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:11 am
The pi5b has apparently already been started on.
I would be shocked if it weren't. I expect it's been in at least a rough outline stage for a year or two by now.
Let's wait until it comes out before speculating on it.
Where's the fun in that?

Besides, once it comes out, it's no longer speculation.

(And, yes, I know who I'm quoting.)

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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:26 am

Moonmarch wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:53 am
I assumed the purpose of the smaller RPI computer designs was cheaper price point, which means you can purchase a larger quantity at a time, and lower power consumption, the RPI zero has 1 CPU core, the RPI3 has 4 cores, which is the reason why the RPI3/RPI4 computers can be considered desktop replacements, talking about the costs, the smaller RPI computers are more disposable, these computers will not have as many features in comparison to the standard RPI computer.
The Pi2B also had 4 cores and the SoC was replaced with the---as you note--Pi3 SoC, also with 4 cores. The progression is that each successive system has had more capable cores, even though the number didn't change. Four cores is kind of the "sweet spot" for this.

The Pi0/Pi0W is very much a special case. It started with "How close to free can you make a working computer?" The answer--so far--turns out to be $5. It's based on using the cheapest feasible SoC and stripping off everything that isn't essential. Then paring down the manufacturing process to reduce cost. It is quite a triumph. The *problems* with the Pi0/Pi0W is that people want it to be more capable and that it can never run a 64-bit kernel. Find a 64-bit capable, compatible SoC that will work with the rest of the Pi0/Pi0W constraints (notably, PoP RAM and cheap), and Robert is your avuncular relative.
A reason to wait to purchase a RPI4, people can wait for more accessories to be released, cases, heat sinks, touch screens, software releases, etc.
There are no indications of further developments for RPF screens. I *think* there may be an issue with the legacy parts of the VC6. On the VC4, the DSI connection can handle 800x600 (the 7" screen) and that's about it. If a larger screen were released, there would be major demand to increase the resolution. For smaller screens (e.g. 3.5") there are a myriad of them out there.

Pi4B case: released. Heatsinks: available. Software releases: ongoing all the time.

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HawaiianPi
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:31 am

Until supply catches up with demand I think we should tell everyone asking this type of question that, yes, they should definitely wait. :twisted:

ejolson wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:32 am
... but I'm having trouble waiting.
I know the feeling. I just ordered a 2GB because my 4GB order from June 24th still hasn't shipped (waiting for stock). PiShop.us has 2GB in stock, so hopefully I'll get that early next week.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

Moonmarch
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:07 pm

If the RPI0/RPI0W upgraded to the armv7 CPU or the RPI3 CPU which is armv8, or at least receive a modified version of the CPU with less cores, lower price, lower power draw, then the RPI0 computer would be able to receive updates, because of compatibility with RPI2 or RPI3 software, until the older RPI models are phased out, the RPI0 series computers can continue to use older hardware from previous RPI computer releases, and still receive updates.

When I started to use the RPI computer I purchased the Canakit starter kit from Amazon, and you will see several RPI computer accessories being sold on Amazon, PI4 accessories from third party developers which can include metal cases, custom heat sink that fits over the board mount holes or heat sink with fan, various hats that fit over the GPIO pins here are some examples:

iUniker Raspberry Pi 3 B+ Case, Raspberry Pi Fan ABS Case with Cooling Fan, Raspberry Pi Heatsink, Simple Removable Top Cover for Pi 3 B+, Pi 3 Model B, Pi 2 Model B - Black:
https://www.amazon.com/iUniker-Raspberr ... 3VNDWFQ0E6

Geekworm Raspberry Pi 3 B+/3B SATA HDD/SSD Storage Expansion Board, X820 V3.0 USB 3.0 Mobile Hard Disk Module for 2.5 Inch SATA HDD/SSD/Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ (B Plus)/3 B/ROCK64/Tinker Board:
https://www.amazon.com/Geekworm-Raspber ... DTDA9MN238

I didn't say I use any of these products when people purchase these accessories which are optional, people assume all risks associated with using these third party accessories, which can include damaging the computer by accident, and these accessories will change how the computer functions, for example turning the RPI computer into a remote control vehicle.

Gythral
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:22 pm

At least wait until a lot of the firmware bugs are found and fixed, and maybe USB boot too
Lots of people have issues with the display driver, not recognizing their working monitor (ones that work fine with earlier models or have odd native modes ie not 720p or 1080p)

With my experience of the 4B, yes wait until the next revision and some of random build issues are fixed (4B 4GB RMA due to USB not working, WiFi random power up)


So if you do not need it today for a purpose I would wait on it maturing!

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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:02 pm

Moonmarch wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:07 pm
If the RPI0/RPI0W upgraded to the armv7 CPU or the RPI3 CPU which is armv8, or at least receive a modified version of the CPU with less cores, lower price, lower power draw, then the RPI0 computer would be able to receive updates, because of compatibility with RPI2 or RPI3 software, until the older RPI models are phased out, the RPI0 series computers can continue to use older hardware from previous RPI computer releases, and still receive updates.
Despite the package size, the BCM2837 (and the, basically discontinued, BCM2836) can't use PoP RAM because the actual chip inside is too big to provide space for the top connections. And PoP RAM is required for the Pi0/Pi0W because there simply isn't space on the board to put a separate RAM package--and you can't put it on the bottom because part of the cost savings in manufacturing is only soldering on one side. So until you can catch an ARMv7 or ARMv8 SoC that includes at least a VC4 AND is small enough to use PoP RAM an upgrade to the Pi0/Pi0W just isn't going to happen.

So...my question you is this: Are you willing (and able) to finance the development all the way to ready for mass fabrication of such a chip so that amortizing the R&D doesn't have to be added to the Pi0/Pi0W cost overhead?

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DougieLawson
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Re: Should I wait for the next revision of the pi 4

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:16 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:02 pm

Despite the package size, the BCM2837 (and the, basically discontinued, BCM2836) can't use PoP RAM because the actual chip inside is too big to provide space for the top connections. And PoP RAM is required for the Pi0/Pi0W because there simply isn't space on the board to put a separate RAM package--and you can't put it on the bottom because part of the cost savings in manufacturing is only soldering on one side. So until you can catch an ARMv7 or ARMv8 SoC that includes at least a VC4 AND is small enough to use PoP RAM an upgrade to the Pi0/Pi0W just isn't going to happen.
Who says you couldn't stack the BCM2837 on top of the RAM? Rather than the conventional arrangement on the Mk1 Raspberries.
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