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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:33 pm
by jcyr
gtechn wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:04 pm
@jcyr Your post came off as so incredibly selfish and derogatory (you seriously think that the USB-C decision was because of the "lowest common denominator"? I assume you mean kids and first-timers.) And tropes, seriously? Just because it is a trope doesn't make it wrong or misguided - and I don't think your examples were even tropes to begin with, more like you complaining and trying to make it look like a trope. And as for "only 1%", I can guarantee you JamesH and the RPT think it's far greater than that. Take a look at online reviews: Most people think 2x displays is great! The only complaint is the connector, and there are far more people wishing for a different connector shape (like HDMI over USB-C) than, say, going back to only 1 display over full size HDMI.

Finally, "most disappointing"? You've clearly been spoiled by the age of $35 computers that are, what, 30x or something faster than when they were originally, because you need a $5 adapter or a $5 cable.

I'm just going to leave with JamesH post.
jamesh wrote: Every random internet commentator/concern troll seems to think they can just design a new SBC, pop down the shops and get the bits for it, then sell it for $35. Here's some news for them. You can't, so stop trying to tell the experts (i.e. the people that have sold more SBC's than all other manufacturers combined) how to do their jobs. Grr.
Ok, perhaps I didn't express my frustration in the most diplomatic fashion, but I fail to see how an expression of self-interest can stir up such a shit storm? Not in my country anyway! As for Jamesh's quote, I understand first hand the challenges faced in building a $35 product with the Pi's capacity. I retired a master engineer from the very company that produces all Pi SOCs. Again, it's the objectives that don't meet my needs, not the design.

Peace & out

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:34 pm
by jdb
I'd like an answer to my question.
jdb wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:43 pm
I'm curious. What about the Pi 4 makes it the "least impressive offering" of all previous product releases?

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:37 pm
by jcyr
gtechn wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:10 pm
jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Simple, board space and power. At least stub one of the HDMI ports.
Then use a pliers and pull the extra microHDMI off. Not a problem!

Edit: Power? If you don't have any displays connected, you aren't using any power.
Board Space? I would think that, if that mattered to you, those GPIO pins and USB ports might need removing.
And if you are such an embedded person, I'm surprised you aren't overjoyed by the 6 UART.
Don't do much with UARTs anymore now that we have excellent command line connectivity via SSH over WiFi. Mostly using SPI and I2C, but those are multi-slave protocols so the need for more is reduced.

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:50 pm
by jcyr
jdb wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:34 pm
I'd like an answer to my question.
jdb wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:43 pm
I'm curious. What about the Pi 4 makes it the "least impressive offering" of all previous product releases?
What I like about the Pi4

- Enhanced CPU
- USB 3.0
- GigE
- Faster SD?

What I don't like.

- Dual HDMI
- Power consumption and thermal
- Do I really need 1 G memory

This thread has made me really curious about how many are actually using Pi on the desktop? I mean seriously using, as in everyday tasks, not just as occasionally powered on toys?

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:10 pm
by otalado
I accept most of gtechn explanations of why this & that on RPi4 is done the way it is done. But I do think it is serious mistake that RPi4 does not have some kind of cooling out of the box. Expected firmware update will not do much to solve that. Also, using the 'official' RPi4 case (with no openings) is making things even worse! Even such simple tasks like copying a bunch of files raise temperature by 10 degrees or more, so talking that throttling will occur only at high task loads is not serious! Overclocking is an option just for people who would like to cook a coffe using RPi4!

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:17 pm
by jdb
jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:50 pm
jdb wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:34 pm
I'd like an answer to my question.
jdb wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:43 pm
I'm curious. What about the Pi 4 makes it the "least impressive offering" of all previous product releases?
What I like about the Pi4

- Enhanced CPU
- USB 3.0
- GigE
- Faster SD?

What I don't like.

- Dual HDMI
- Power consumption and thermal
- Do I really need 1 G memory

This thread has made me really curious about how many are actually using Pi on the desktop? I mean seriously using, as in everyday tasks, not just as occasionally powered on toys?
Why is the Pi 4 (which represents a substantial upgrade regarding the enhancements you list vs previous products) less impressive than the Pi 3 was over the Pi 2?

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:38 pm
by W. H. Heydt
jdb wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:17 pm
jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:50 pm
jdb wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:34 pm
I'd like an answer to my question.

What I like about the Pi4

- Enhanced CPU
- USB 3.0
- GigE
- Faster SD?

What I don't like.

- Dual HDMI
- Power consumption and thermal
- Do I really need 1 G memory

This thread has made me really curious about how many are actually using Pi on the desktop? I mean seriously using, as in everyday tasks, not just as occasionally powered on toys?
Why is the Pi 4 (which represents a substantial upgrade regarding the enhancements you list vs previous products) less impressive than the Pi 3 was over the Pi 2?
Non illigitimi carborundum. *I* think the Pi4B is an impressive board. It is clearly head and shoulders above the Pi3B/Pi3B+ even as the Pi3B was head and shoulders above the original Pi2B, and the Pi2B above the B+. It ticks every box covering weaknesses in the Pi3B/Pi3B+ and more besides. There are very, very few places where it could be better, and most of those are precluded by space and/or cost. It's th Pi I've been waiting for.

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:40 pm
by jcyr
jdb wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:17 pm
jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:50 pm
jdb wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:34 pm
I'd like an answer to my question.

What I like about the Pi4

- Enhanced CPU
- USB 3.0
- GigE
- Faster SD?

What I don't like.

- Dual HDMI
- Power consumption and thermal
- Do I really need 1 G memory

This thread has made me really curious about how many are actually using Pi on the desktop? I mean seriously using, as in everyday tasks, not just as occasionally powered on toys?
Why is the Pi 4 (which represents a substantial upgrade regarding the enhancements you list vs previous products) less impressive than the Pi 3 was over the Pi 2?
Less impressive, in my opinion only, because it doesn't meet my needs! Frankly the 3B hit the sweet spot as far as I'm concerned, and the 0W for smaller applications. Things like the introduction of built-in wireless, Bluetooth, and quad-cores were impressive, this... not so much! But take it with a grain of salt. Only one man's impression who appears to be in a minority. ;)

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:42 pm
by jcyr
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:38 pm
Non illigitimi carborundum. *I* think the Pi4B is an impressive board. It is clearly head and shoulders above the Pi3B/Pi3B+ even as the Pi3B was head and shoulders above the original Pi2B, and the Pi2B above the B+. It ticks every box covering weaknesses in the Pi3B/Pi3B+ and more besides. There are very, very few places where it could be better, and most of those are precluded by space and/or cost. It's th Pi I've been waiting for.
Sure, but would you actually use it as your primary desktop?

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:46 pm
by jdb
jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:40 pm

Less impressive, in my opinion only, because it doesn't meet my needs! Frankly the 3B hit the sweet spot as far as I'm concerned, and the 0W for smaller applications. Things like the introduction of built-in wireless, Bluetooth, and quad-cores were impressive, this... not so much! But take it with a grain of salt. Only one man's impression who appears to be in a minority. ;)
You are correct - you're a minority opinion. By all means continue to use the 3B, it's not going anywhere soon. We have obsoleted a grand total of 45 products in the company's lifetime: the Pi 1 Model B, the Pi 1 Model A, both variants of the v1 camera and the 802.11n USB wifi dongle.

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:03 pm
by jamesh
jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:40 pm
jdb wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:17 pm
jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:50 pm


What I like about the Pi4

- Enhanced CPU
- USB 3.0
- GigE
- Faster SD?

What I don't like.

- Dual HDMI
- Power consumption and thermal
- Do I really need 1 G memory

This thread has made me really curious about how many are actually using Pi on the desktop? I mean seriously using, as in everyday tasks, not just as occasionally powered on toys?
Why is the Pi 4 (which represents a substantial upgrade regarding the enhancements you list vs previous products) less impressive than the Pi 3 was over the Pi 2?
Less impressive, in my opinion only, because it doesn't meet my needs! Frankly the 3B hit the sweet spot as far as I'm concerned, and the 0W for smaller applications. Things like the introduction of built-in wireless, Bluetooth, and quad-cores were impressive, this... not so much! But take it with a grain of salt. Only one man's impression who appears to be in a minority. ;)
Oddly we clearly sell a device that exactly meets your needs. The 3B. You can still buy then, and they won't go out of production for years.

So effectively what you are saying is that you are happy with the Lamborghini Diablo, but are slagging off the Lamborghini Reventon because it's better?





(Sorry, I do love a car analogy)

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:09 pm
by jcyr
Oddly we clearly sell a device that exactly meets your needs. The 3B.
Thanks. I was a little concerned when it disappeared from your front page.

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:10 pm
by davidcoton
jdb wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:46 pm
We have obsoleted a grand total of 45 products in the company's lifetime: the Pi 1 Model B, the Pi 1 Model A, both variants of the v1 camera and the 802.11n USB wifi dongle.
On by PC the skrikeout on "4" doesn't show -- I was going to ask, what are the other 40? :lol:

Seriously, I am very grateful for the backwards compatibility of the whole Pi range. I started a project on a "B" with 26-pin GPIO, can't easily upgrade h/w because of the 26-pin LCD screen attached, but the "B" is still supported! Will upgrade the project from Wheezy to Buster soon.

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:12 pm
by jcyr
Oddly we clearly sell a device that exactly meets your needs. The 3B.
Thanks. I was a little concerned when it disappeared from your front page.
So effectively what you are saying is that you are happy with the Lamborghini Diablo, but are slagging off the Lamborghini Reventon because it's better?
Naw, mostly 'cause it burns too much gas.

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:16 pm
by jamesh
jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:12 pm
Oddly we clearly sell a device that exactly meets your needs. The 3B.
Thanks. I was a little concerned when it disappeared from your front page.
So effectively what you are saying is that you are happy with the Lamborghini Diablo, but are slagging off the Lamborghini Reventon because it's better?
Naw, mostly 'cause it burns too much gas.
Interestingly, the Reventon and the Diablo have very similar MPG figures, but the Reventon is faster with much faster acceleration. Not only that but my race car MPG was the same as well. Seems that 11mpg is s sweet spot.

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:21 pm
by davidcoton
jamesh wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:16 pm
Seems that 11mpg is s sweet spot.
For the petrochemical industry. :lol:
Not so good for the environment. Lamborghini probably not delivered wrapped in recyclable cardboard, either.

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:10 am
by Gavinmc42
My needs changed last week when my Linux Mint Celeron box stopped working.
This Pi4B1 is so close to being a replacement I will order a 4B4 when there is local stock.

I mostly just write baremetal Pi code on that box, now I can do it on a Pi4.
The IDE tools etc just installed and worked.
I write apps for Zeros, B+, they are all I really need.

I am learning higher level stuff so I can write apps for 3A+ etc.
This multicore and AI stuff is new to this old 8 bitter.
Just learning how to get the best from all model Pi's will keep me busy for the next decade or so.

"Doesn't meet my needs" well then go away and find a solution elsewhere, stop whinging to us.
Those Nvidia Jetson things look nice, but I might be too old to learn them as well :oops:

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:35 pm
by jcyr
"Doesn't meet my needs" well then go away and find a solution elsewhere, stop whinging to us.
I was waiting for that one...

Kind of like the silly expression often heard: "You don't like this country, move somewhere else!"

Hardly practical, specially when the Pi remains the best solution available, though in some cases sub-optimal.

It's a classic fanboy response to ANY criticism.

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:38 pm
by jamesh
jcyr wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:35 pm
"Doesn't meet my needs" well then go away and find a solution elsewhere, stop whinging to us.
I was waiting for that one...

Kind of like the silly expression often heard: "You don't like this country, move somewhere else!"

Hardly practical, specially when the Pi remains the best solution available, though in some cases sub-optimal.

It's a classic fanboy response to ANY criticism.
I think that is enough of this nonsense. As soon as the fanboy word comes up, I close threads.

Suffice to say, buy the device that best meets your needs.