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clicky
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:58 pm

Rust: topic is "Pi4 as Desktop computer" - rust can be really treated as command line tool/compiler (unless someone had particular IDE in mind). Create new topic and complain that Rust doesn't support WASM on ARM processors :P Also, please, really, please, do not start discussion "Raspberry Pi - Raspbian is crap" from perspective that some packages/apps are not natively compiled for arm (some you can compile yourself and some might not be able to be compiled due to many reasons(*)) - it would be very similar to 15+ years old - 'Linux sux becase I cannot have MS Word on it'... If you don't understand Linux (and its many distributions and differences between them and architectures) then it is just not for you... :(

USB boot: why are people so hang about it not being available yet? Grab an old, small, semi-broken or otherwise SD card, set /boot partition on it and off you go. That second or two it would take more to boot doesn't really cause any problems for anyone! (BTW currently card in my Pi4 is not working properly but for /boot partition which boots system and mounts root on SSD)

Pi4 as Desktop is finally viable. UI is responsive, 4GB is appropriate for lightweight programming, USB3 allows quite fast SSD to be attached to it makes it easy for everyday use and Raspbian (and Debian!) has provided many pre-compiled libs and apps for ARM (armhf - which works on Pi4). I can understand some shortcomings of distro/architecture, but this topic is mostly to show that you *CAN* use Pi4 as desktop computer. At least I am using it and from first few pages I can say others, too. With ability to compile rust to WASM or not ;)

(*) tavrasm - obscure Atmel 8bit processors' assembler is not provided by Raspbian. ;) So, do I need to conclude that Pi4 is falsely advertised as a desktop computer... Or, what is more fair to say - I just downloaded the source, fixed it for modern gcc and compiled it without making any fuss. But, again, that has nothing to do with Pi4 as Desktop computer.

pica200
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:47 am

If you have to compile common software like Firefox yourself i don't quite think that's the desktop experience (unless you are a Gentoo user). You have to do that every update. There is Chromium as said but i would rather not support their monopoly.

ShiftPlusOne
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:32 am

hippie403 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:11 pm
Any chance of working something out with Google for Widevine DRM in Raspbian Chromium?
It's near impossible to get redistribution rights for widevine.

I haven't looked into it recently, but last time I checked, most projects that tried may get an initial response, but then it goes nowhere. They had to resort to alternatives like downloading widevine from Google's servers.

For ARM, it's a little more complicated because it involves downloading an image of ChromeOS (a relatively large download) and extracting it from there. If you look it up, you should find some scripts that do it for you.

For some sites you will also need to set your user agent string to pretend you're running chromeos or another supported browser/platform.

jamesh
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:39 am

pica200 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:47 am
If you have to compile common software like Firefox yourself i don't quite think that's the desktop experience (unless you are a Gentoo user). You have to do that every update. There is Chromium as said but i would rather not support their monopoly.
And that is entirely your choice. We provide Chromium (not, this is Chrome with all the tracking taken out) with our own mods to make it more performant. We do not do that with Firefox.
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:43 am

Cleared thread of rust. Please, keep on topic.
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pica200
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:00 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:39 am
And that is entirely your choice. We provide Chromium (not, this is Chrome with all the tracking taken out) with our own mods to make it more performant. We do not do that with Firefox.
So what i'm getting from this is the RPiF/T doesn't care? That's rather disappointing. This may sound like #firstworldproblems but i should not have to compile common software for something that calls itself "desktop computer" (and i'm aware that ARM based can't be compared to x86 based but this is just a software package). I'm not asking for these patches be made for FF i'm just asking for an officially supported package for non-ESR FF. In another thread it was mentioned there were issues compiling it with older gcc which have been solved apparently so i'm not sure why it's missing or why it never made it into the repos.

So i have to go unofficial with a different distro it seems to get all the complaints resolved and pray it has proper hardware support which is unfortunate :(

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:10 pm

@pica200:
RPF/T care very much, that's why they give you an optimized Browser called Chromium.
If you don't like that, that's your personal preference.
I don't like Chromium either, but I won't cry about not having Firefox porper either, I'm happy with ESR.

Raspian tracks Debian, and Debian does not provide FF proper! They "only" provide FF-ESR.
I have no idea what gave you the impression that Raspbian should provide FF proper!
Raspbian provides (with exceptions) what Debian provides plus some Raspberry specific patches and additions.
RPF/T decided to optimize Chromium. Live with it.
And what ever do you need FF proper for? FF ESR has the same security patches.
If you need FF proper, then either compile it yourself or use another platform.

Regards
Aydan
Last edited by Aydan on Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:13 pm

pica200 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:00 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:39 am
And that is entirely your choice. We provide Chromium (not, this is Chrome with all the tracking taken out) with our own mods to make it more performant. We do not do that with Firefox.
So what i'm getting from this is the RPiF/T doesn't care? That's rather disappointing. This may sound like #firstworldproblems but i should not have to compile common software for something that calls itself "desktop computer" (and i'm aware that ARM based can't be compared to x86 based but this is just a software package). I'm not asking for these patches be made for FF i'm just asking for an officially supported package for non-ESR FF. In another thread it was mentioned there were issues compiling it with older gcc which have been solved apparently so i'm not sure why it's missing or why it never made it into the repos.

So i have to go unofficial with a different distro it seems to get all the complaints resolved and pray it has proper hardware support which is unfortunate :(

chromium-browser is perfectly OK, the RPT / RPF have to use software engineering resources wisely and considering the previous Epiphany Browser was also based of WebKit Engine it makes sense.

Debian which Raspbian is based do not offer Firefox non ESR....


I personally have decided at this moment in time that a RPi 4B is not a "cost effective" replacement for my Asus ChromeBit.....
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
RPi 4B 4GB (SSD Boot)..
Asus ChromeBox 3 Celeron is my other computer...

jamesh
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:19 pm

pica200 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:00 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:39 am
And that is entirely your choice. We provide Chromium (not, this is Chrome with all the tracking taken out) with our own mods to make it more performant. We do not do that with Firefox.
So what i'm getting from this is the RPiF/T doesn't care? That's rather disappointing. This may sound like #firstworldproblems but i should not have to compile common software for something that calls itself "desktop computer" (and i'm aware that ARM based can't be compared to x86 based but this is just a software package). I'm not asking for these patches be made for FF i'm just asking for an officially supported package for non-ESR FF. In another thread it was mentioned there were issues compiling it with older gcc which have been solved apparently so i'm not sure why it's missing or why it never made it into the repos.

So i have to go unofficial with a different distro it seems to get all the complaints resolved and pray it has proper hardware support which is unfortunate :(
We do care. Just not about Firefox.

We spent a load of cash making Chromium work fast. Should we spend a load more cash on making Firefox work as well? To provide the same feature set under a different name? what about all the other packages that Debian does not supply, should we also be responsible for building those as well, just because one person somewhere wants it?

Chromium is our official browser. Your demands are harsh, and do not reflect the real world.
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Musketeer
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:42 pm

You don't really HAVE to use it. Nobody is holding you by knife... Use Firefox mostly and Kroum just for YouTube etc.
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:26 pm

Aydan wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:10 pm
RPF/T care very much, that's why they give you an optimized Browser called Chromium.
If you don't like that, that's your personal preference.
I don't like Chromium either, but I won't cry about not having Firefox porper either, I'm happy with ESR.
I'm not trusting Chromium at all even if claims not to have google's crap baked in and besides that i don't want to support this monopoly which decides whatever they want for example to move an API behind a paywall (for buisinesses only) which was the only way for ad blockers to work and making a new API which effectively makes proper ad blocking impossible due to nonsensical filter rule limits.

I don't know how you can be happy with that. It struggles quite a bit due to missing hardware acceleration and force enabling that makes every tab crash. But still better than supporting Googles egotrip.
Aydan wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:10 pm
Raspian tracks Debian, and Debian does not provide FF proper! They "only" provide FF-ESR.
I have no idea what gave you the impression that Raspbian should provide FF proper!
Raspbian provides (with exceptions) what Debian provides plus some Raspberry specific patches and additions.
RPF/T decided to optimize Chromium. Live with it.
And what ever do you need FF proper for? FF ESR has the same security patches.
If you need FF proper, then either compile it yourself or use another platform.
To be honest i don't care who adds it. If Debian is at fault then they should add it and there is no reason anymore for them not to provide it.
ESR is way behind in features and the gap is only going to get bigger as the regular version moves on. Plus Mozilla is planning to rewrite more parts in Rust which is a big security upgrade compared to the competition which will land on ESR with big delays. That's enough reason not to use it imho.
And that's what i will have to do since apparently everyone else is fine with a half broken product.

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:13 pm
I personally have decided at this moment in time that a RPi 4B is not a "cost effective" replacement for my Asus ChromeBit.....
Yeah, software support is just underground level right now. It works but not quite as good/stable as for previous Pi's. The Pi 4 is pretty rushed and they should have invested the time they had left from the original schedule to polish the software side.

jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:19 pm
We do care. Just not about Firefox.

We spent a load of cash making Chromium work fast. Should we spend a load more cash on making Firefox work as well? To provide the same feature set under a different name? what about all the other packages that Debian does not supply, should we also be responsible for building those as well, just because one person somewhere wants it?

Chromium is our official browser. Your demands are harsh, and do not reflect the real world.
You making it hard to believe that.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said earlier i'm not asking for the RPiF/T to make any patches and besides that i find it questionable to pay the big bucks for this since i'm sure you would have found people willing to help if you ask nicely. Heck, make some sort of contest out of it which would cost less in prices than hiring devs.

I'm sorry to say it but my demands are as harsh as the claims are bold. The hardware is as advertised but the software side is lacking at the moment.


I guess i'm on my own. I'm gonna leave for a while since it looks like the majority of this community is not on my side and the Pi 4 is not quite ready for prime time.

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:03 pm

pica200 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:26 pm
I guess i'm on my own. I'm gonna leave for a while since it looks like the majority of this community is not on my side and the Pi 4 is not quite ready for prime time.
Yes it is. Just because one package you use is not present, doesn't mean it that millions of others are not happy. And I do mean millions.

As for the community getting it going - if someone were to take the time and effort to get an accelerated Firefox up and running, they are more than welcome, its all open source, and with the MESA driver now working reliably it should all be standard API's. It won't be easy, and this sort of software is very complex, which is presumably why no-one has done it yet. (Note, Chromium is accelerated, you seems to say it wasn't in the post above - that is where the money was spent).
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RetroBoyAdvance
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:09 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:19 pm
[...]

We do care. Just not about Firefox.

We spent a load of cash making Chromium work fast. Should we spend a load more cash on making Firefox work as well? To provide the same feature set under a different name? what about all the other packages that Debian does not supply, should we also be responsible for building those as well, just because one person somewhere wants it?

Chromium is our official browser. Your demands are harsh, and do not reflect the real world.
Thanks for that. :D

Does that effort also affect Vivaldi? (based on Chromium)

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:10 pm

jcyr wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:56 pm
Aydan wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:10 pm
@pica200:
RPF/T care very much, that's why they give you an optimized Browser called Chromium.
If you don't like that, that's your personal preference.
Correct. I prefer to use a real 'desktop' computer for most daily activities. I have a special aversion to all things Google, including Chromium.

Why doth the complainers say chromium-browser is Google ?

Chromium Browser is an open-sorce project and is what RPT / RPF use as a basis for their browser:

https://www.chromium.org/


Google's browser is called Chrome:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome
Last edited by fruitoftheloom on Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
RPi 4B 4GB (SSD Boot)..
Asus ChromeBox 3 Celeron is my other computer...

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:18 pm

RetroBoyAdvance wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:09 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:19 pm
[...]

We do care. Just not about Firefox.

We spent a load of cash making Chromium work fast. Should we spend a load more cash on making Firefox work as well? To provide the same feature set under a different name? what about all the other packages that Debian does not supply, should we also be responsible for building those as well, just because one person somewhere wants it?

Chromium is our official browser. Your demands are harsh, and do not reflect the real world.
Thanks for that. :D

Does that effort also affect Vivaldi? (based on Chromium)

Vivaldi has no relation to RPT / RPF they have their own development team:

https://vivaldi.com/team/
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
RPi 4B 4GB (SSD Boot)..
Asus ChromeBox 3 Celeron is my other computer...

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:56 pm

jcyr wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:54 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:10 pm
jcyr wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:56 pm


Correct. I prefer to use a real 'desktop' computer for most daily activities. I have a special aversion to all things Google, including Chromium.
Why doth the complainers say chromium-browser is Google ?
The great majority of Chromium core devs are Google employees, effectively in control of the project. Enough to keep me away.

So for all the software you use you find out if the developers work for Alphabet...

....surprised you even have a computer or any device connecting to the WWW !
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
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Asus ChromeBox 3 Celeron is my other computer...

RetroBoyAdvance
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:23 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:18 pm
RetroBoyAdvance wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:09 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:19 pm
[...]

We do care. Just not about Firefox.

We spent a load of cash making Chromium work fast. Should we spend a load more cash on making Firefox work as well? To provide the same feature set under a different name? what about all the other packages that Debian does not supply, should we also be responsible for building those as well, just because one person somewhere wants it?

Chromium is our official browser. Your demands are harsh, and do not reflect the real world.
Thanks for that. :D

Does that effort also affect Vivaldi? (based on Chromium)

Vivaldi has no relation to RPT / RPF they have their own development team:

https://vivaldi.com/team/

That wasn't the question was it. :mrgreen:

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:45 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:56 pm
jcyr wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:54 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:10 pm


Why doth the complainers say chromium-browser is Google ?
The great majority of Chromium core devs are Google employees, effectively in control of the project. Enough to keep me away.

So for all the software you use you find out if the developers work for Alphabet...

....surprised you even have a computer or any device connecting to the WWW !
Worth doing a search over the Linux kernel codebase for contributers Google email addresses...

Chromium is open source, so should be entirely free of bad stuff.
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:35 am

schorsch76

Not sure if you care or not at this point but: I ran into a similar issue with Firefox on a number (not all) of websites(including amazon). I wound up getting the useragent addon for FF set it for 32bit (linux i686), shut down FF, restart it and all was back to normal. I THINK that it sometimes sees the Pi4 as a smartphone. In my case at least, it was pretty hit or miss. Without useragent amazon showed up fine one day and goofy the next. The other symptom that this was happening was the limited number of tools on google search.

ejolson
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:02 am

jcyr wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:36 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:45 pm
Chromium is open source, so should be entirely free of bad stuff.
The bad stuff is Google and wherever they extend their tentacles.
Writing about tentacles might be off topic even more so than Rust.

Back on topic, it's notable that most of the discussion in this thread has focused on critical applications people need on their desktops. While the softwares are different for different people, it appears to me a common theme is that the new hardware would be capable if only the needed software were available. That's actually pretty good, because writing software is something anyone who has a Pi can do, whereas designing a new Pi is not.

Even if writing software is possible, there are a number of closed-source proprietary softwares, that for reasons either intrinsic or artificial, are very difficult to recreate. One such example is Mathematica. For some students, scientists and engineers, having a computer algebra system available on the desktop is a requirement more important than Microsoft Office or a specific brand of web browser.

Interestingly, a license to run Wolfram Mathematica is provided free of charge to every Pi owner. Moreover, the program works quite well on the 4B because of the additional processor speed and memory. Although it's possible to buy a hobbyist license to use Mathematica on an Intel-compatible PC for less than US $1000, could the Pi 4B actually be a better desktop for people who need a computer algebra system?

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:34 am

jcyr wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:36 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:45 pm
Worth doing a search over the Linux kernel codebase for contributers Google email addresses...
Certainly not the majority, nor the core devs... Unlike Chromium.
jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:45 pm
Chromium is open source, so should be entirely free of bad stuff.
The bad stuff is Google and wherever they extend their tentacles.
What has the percentage got to do with it? Only takes one....you should not be using Linux if you are so paranoid about Google's work.
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:37 am

you should not be using Linux if you are so paranoid
Yep, let's move to Harmony OS :D
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:26 pm

jcyr wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:17 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:34 am
What has the percentage got to do with it? Only takes one....you should not be using Linux if you are so paranoid about Google's work.
Huh?
I believe that was shortform for - if one chooses to believe anything Google has touched must be avoided, anything any Google employee has touched must be avoided, then anything touched by just one Google employee must be avoided. And thus Linux must be avoided, because Google and plenty of Google employees have touched that.

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:43 pm

Using lot of stuff closed sourced is something to think about definitely today...
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PeterO
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:48 pm

jcyr wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:17 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:34 am
What has the percentage got to do with it? Only takes one....you should not be using Linux if you are so paranoid about Google's work.
Huh?
jcyr wrote: Certainly not the majority, nor the core devs... Unlike Chromium.


You seem to be saying that greater than 50% (i.e. A Majority) of devs working for Google means you won't use the software.

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