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davidcoton
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:48 am

RossDv8 wrote: Boot time for the Pi was a lot slower after hashing out the overclock settings, actually hanging on boot several times. I had a quick look at the GPU memory split, and found it had defaulted to 76MB !! Changed that to 256MB, simply because it was the highest option showing in raspi-config. Boot time is normal again.
Could you try GPUmem at 128MB? Most video memory (AIUI) is now allocated from the main pool, not GPUmem, so in many cases increasing GPUmem is actually counter-productive. Not sure why it should affect boot time -- is the effect reproducible?

In any case, that's a nice piece of investigation with useful results -- and a new real world stress test for overclocked systems.
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:57 am

RossDv8 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:56 am
Please report back if going back to stock CPU speeds solves the problem.
Reporting back !!

Hashed out the overclock settings and hashed out the GPU Memory split setting then unsharped the stock 1MB wallpaper file that failed before (temple.jpg) on the microSD. No probem.
Unsharped the 6MB file from the camera, that failed previously (on an SSD connected to a USB 3 port). No problem.

Boot time for the Pi was a lot slower after hashing out the overclock settings, actually hanging on boot several times. I had a quick look at the GPU memory split, and found it had defaulted to 76MB !! Changed that to 256MB, simply because it was the highest option showing in raspi-config. Boot time is normal again.

Project for today is to try each of the overclock settings out of curiosity to see what triggers the problem in GIMP. However, I am wondering if there is any advantage in overclocking, as I suspect 1750MHz 'might' be the tipping point. Either that or running the GPU at 600MHz.
We shall see..

In the mean time - I can't blame the Pi :oops:

!! U P D A T E !!
I checked using different overclock settings;
Hashed out ALL overclock settings - worked fine
ENABLED CPU at 2000Mhz - failed to boot
ENABLED CPU at 2000MHz AND Voltage at 4V - Booted, but GIMP unsharp failed
Changed CPU overclock to 1750MHz (left overvoltage at 4V) - GIMP unsharp failed
Reverted overclock settings to default (hashed out everything) - GIMP unsharp is working on 1MB and 6MB files on both Local microSD and External USB drives.

End of my config.txt is now looking like:
[Pi 4B Overclock]
#over_voltage=4
#arm_freq=2000
#arm_freq=1750
#gpu_freq=600

gpu_mem=256


In my case, (for now) the problem with GIMP rebooting the Pi 4 during some operations has been solved by removing the overclock settings from the /boot/config.txt file.

Until I find some other software problem, that means for me at least the Pi will work nicely as a Desktop Computer - EXCEPT for the 'apparent' lack of compatible printer drivers. I know I can print over the network, but I would like to print directly from the Pi.

For the moment I'll just continue using an Android phone I had lying around ( with the appropriate Android printing app) as a Bluetooth/WiFi Direct print server. It is clumsy, but it works for now and indeed makes the Pi usable as a Desktop computer for the moment.
OK, so sounds like GIMP is stressing the CPU enough to brown out the PMIC at those high voltages and overclocks. Ah well, overclock at your peril. It was most odd to see a kernel crash from a userland app, simply from heavy memory use, but this does explain it.
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pica200
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:54 am

I tried to reproduce this under a full 64 bits distro and unfortunately i can. The entire system just dies immediately as soon as it renders the preview image. There is not even a message about this in journalctl as far as i can see. This is pretty disappointing that we can't even get stable overclock on the Pi 4.

dickon
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:05 am

Overclocking, by its very definition, is running the thing outside its rated specifications.

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:18 am

pica200 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:54 am
I tried to reproduce this under a full 64 bits distro and unfortunately i can. The entire system just dies immediately as soon as it renders the preview image. There is not even a message about this in journalctl as far as i can see. This is pretty disappointing that we can't even get stable overclock on the Pi 4.
Disappointing? There is absolutely no guarantee you can run the Pi outside its published specifications. So what you are saying is that is disappointing that you cannot use the Pi is a way it was not designed to be used? Are you aware what an odd statement that is?
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:20 am

dickon wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:05 am
Overclocking, by its very definition, is running the thing outside its rated specifications.
I'm not saying it is not but every Pi before this one was able to overclock without stability issues. I guess we have yet another case of cheaped out on the wrong end (PMIC).
jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:18 am
Disappointing? There is absolutely no guarantee you can run the Pi outside its published specifications. So what you are saying is that is disappointing that you cannot use the Pi is a way it was not designed to be used? Are you aware what an odd statement that is?
Every other A72 based SoC with the same process node is able to reach 2 GHz and this one would too if it were not for the weak PMIC.

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:29 am

More likely, your board doesn't do it, but others' will. That's the point about *over*clocking: you *might* get the thing running smoothly out of spec, but, OTOH, you might well not.

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:34 am

pica200 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:20 am

Every other A72 based SoC with the same process node is able to reach 2 GHz and this one would too if it were not for the weak PMIC.
[Citation needed]. Which SOCs are these?
Rockets are loud.
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:36 am

It is able to run about everything fine at 2 GHz with over_voltage=5/6 and official power supply. Just not this. It shows the PMIC is a tight fit when not even 1.75 GHz works.
jdb wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:34 am
[Citation needed]. Which SOCs are these?
It was mentioned here in the forums somwhere that 2 GHz is the limit for the A72 at 28 nm. And the Pi 4 reaches this just not 100% stable because of the power issue which was mentioned above by your colleague.
Last edited by pica200 on Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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davidcoton
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:36 am

pica200 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:20 am
dickon wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:05 am
Overclocking, by its very definition, is running the thing outside its rated specifications.
I'm not saying it is not but every Pi before this one was able to overclock without stability issues. I guess we have yet another case of cheaped out on the wrong end (PMIC).
Absolutely wrong.
The point is that the Pi engineering has reached the stage where there is no need to derate components to achieve the specification -- so there is less margin for overclocking. That's good.

You will also find that the boundaries are set so that almost all assembled Pis will meet the spec. That implies that there will be some margin for overclocking on some chips. Just because one sample won't overclock is no cause for complaint or accusations of "cheaped out". If you want to buy something that costs more just so you can overclock, that's your choice. Just don't buy a Pi. Oh, BTW, the extra cost of a Pi alternative does not guarantee that it will overclock.

Maybe RPT could market a 1GHz version of the Pi4B with "50% overclock ability guaranteed". :shock:
Then a 1.5GHz version "factory overclocked" :lol: :lol: :roll:
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:51 am

pica200 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:20 am
I'm not saying it is not but every Pi before this one was able to overclock without stability issues. I guess we have yet another case of cheaped out on the wrong end (PMIC).
Don't write posts like this. It insulting to our team, and I don't like insulting. First and last warning.
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pica200
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:51 am

davidcoton wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:36 am
Absolutely wrong.
The point is that the Pi engineering has reached the stage where there is no need to derate components to achieve the specification -- so there is less margin for overclocking. That's good.

You will also find that the boundaries are set so that almost all assembled Pis will meet the spec. That implies that there will be some margin for overclocking on some chips. Just because one sample won't overclock is no cause for complaint or accusations of "cheaped out". If you want to buy something that costs more just so you can overclock, that's your choice. Just don't buy a Pi. Oh, BTW, the extra cost of a Pi alternative does not guarantee that it will overclock.

Maybe RPT could market a 1GHz version of the Pi4B with "50% overclock ability guaranteed". :shock:
Then a 1.5GHz version "factory overclocked" :lol: :lol: :roll:
Except this is not a problem with the SoC so this argument falls flat. I gurantee you almost all Pi 4B's will fail the same way because this is not an issue of process tolerances but power delivery. If this was a SoC problem don't you think it would instead just kernel panic? It clearly doesn't even at 1.75 GHz.

Funny but i did not hear anyone laughing.

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:56 am

pica200 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:36 am
It is able to run about everything fine at 2 GHz with over_voltage=5/6 and official power supply. Just not this. It shows the PMIC is a tight fit when not even 1.75 GHz works.
jdb wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:34 am
[Citation needed]. Which SOCs are these?
It was mentioned here in the forums somwhere that 2 GHz is the limit for the A72 at 28 nm. And the Pi 4 reaches this just not 100% stable because of the power issue which was mentioned above by your colleague.
Not a silicon limit, but due to how the clocks can be set up. And yes, overclock to 2GHz, and the power supply is on the edge. But nothing you have said negates the ABSOLUTE FACT that the Pi is sold as a 1.5GHz machine, and at that speed there is no power supply limitation.
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:19 am

PC overclockers would be trilled with a 33% speed increase.
Some Pi users expect more?
I got one early Pi3B+ that I need to underclock to 1350MHz, no big deal.
Keeps me on my toes when I confuse it with the other Pi3B+ that is fine at 1400.

Pi4's are so much faster I have not even bothered touching clock speeds, I just add a small heatsink.
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:25 am

pica200 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:54 am
I tried to reproduce this under a full 64 bits distro and unfortunately i can. The entire system just dies immediately as soon as it renders the preview image. There is not even a message about this in journalctl as far as i can see. This is pretty disappointing that we can't even get stable overclock on the Pi 4.
Clearly untrue.
I'm running mine at 1850 CPU and 600 GPU at +2v it runs this test perfecly every time CPU 56C passive cooling.
I did have to reduce my CPU over clock from 1950 to 1850 and the voltage from +3 to +2.
It's all a matter of pot luck as to how much you can overclock reliably.
Also shows how useless these CPU burn test really are in the real world.
Regards, Kevin.

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:27 am

pica200 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:36 am
jdb wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:34 am
[Citation needed]. Which SOCs are these?
It was mentioned here in the forums somwhere that 2 GHz is the limit for the A72 at 28 nm. And the Pi 4 reaches this just not 100% stable because of the power issue which was mentioned above by your colleague.
A vague reference to "other random post on the forums" is not a list of SoCs that verify your claim.
Rockets are loud.
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:33 am

pica200 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:51 am
If this was a SoC problem don't you think it would instead just kernel panic? It clearly doesn't even at 1.75 GHz.
If you run things out of spec, you cannot be in any way sure how the thing will behave. It's out of specification: all bets are off. You're pushing it further than it was designed to run. You should expect it to fail, and quite probably in unexpected and novel ways, perhaps terminally. Quite possibly in different ways on each run, assuming you haven't wrecked the thing.

It's a 1.5GHz product. Treat it as such. 33% overclock? My gods... Try running an electric motor 33% overspeed. Or a loudspeaker. Or a lightbulb.

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:23 pm

pica200 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:36 am
It is able to run about everything fine at 2 GHz with over_voltage=5/6 and official power supply. Just not this. It shows the PMIC is a tight fit when not even 1.75 GHz works.
jdb wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:34 am
[Citation needed]. Which SOCs are these?
It was mentioned here in the forums somwhere that 2 GHz is the limit for the A72 at 28 nm. And the Pi 4 reaches this just not 100% stable because of the power issue which was mentioned above by your colleague.
Every computer ever built is a system of connected components, look at any PC and you will see loads of capacitors and inductors around the CPU, these are the PMIC, for that CPU/board, if they are not able to supply the excessive power requirements that you impose by over clocking, it is not the fault of anyone, who had anything to do with the design of any of that system, it is entirely your problem for excessive overclocking, no one else's. Would you prefer that the CPU was locked, like certain other major manufacturers?
Regards, Kevin.

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:15 pm

dickon wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:33 am
pica200 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:51 am
If this was a SoC problem don't you think it would instead just kernel panic? It clearly doesn't even at 1.75 GHz.
If you run things out of spec, you cannot be in any way sure how the thing will behave. It's out of specification: all bets are off. You're pushing it further than it was designed to run. You should expect it to fail, and quite probably in unexpected and novel ways, perhaps terminally. Quite possibly in different ways on each run, assuming you haven't wrecked the thing.

It's a 1.5GHz product. Treat it as such. 33% overclock? My gods... Try running an electric motor 33% overspeed. Or a loudspeaker. Or a lightbulb.
The recent GIMP post is a case in point - random unpredictable crash that took out the kernel. Turned out to be an unstable overclock, but took a while for the fact the device was overclocked to come out. That's why when debugging a problem you always need to reset back to factory settings in these circumstances, as we KNOW they should work.

If I ran my car at 33% overspeed, the engine would blow up. Except I cannot because it's rev limited...not that dissimilar to a Pi in some ways.
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:25 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:15 pm
If I ran my car at 33% overspeed, the engine would blow up. Except I cannot because it's rev limited...not that dissimilar to a Pi in some ways.
Another automotive analogy! Into cars at all? :-)
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

RossDv8
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:32 pm

Except this is not a problem with the SoC so this argument falls flat. I gurantee you almost all Pi 4B's will fail the same way because this is not an issue of process tolerances but power delivery. If this was a SoC problem don't you think it would instead just kernel panic? It clearly doesn't even at 1.75 GHz
Geez, I didn't mean to open a can of worms here with the overclocking discovery. The raspi-config actually tells us that Only Pi 1 or Pi 2 can be overclocked with that tool. That's a sort of suggestion that overclocking is unwise. But because the Pi 3 and Pi 3B+ ran overclocked with no problems and I had seen benchmark tests with the Pi 4 running overclocked, I was curious. And the reality was that for the couple of weeks I've been running it overclocked, it has performed perfectly, even running Openshot editing and rendering flawlessly (so far).

That's why I was surprised when a relatively simple operation I would normally perform in GIMP a large number of images after almost any photo session, failed. The original post was after all about using the Pi 4 as a Desktop Computer.

It's not the Pis fault, nor the amazing team who manage to build the thing at the price. It was me and other curious techie types trying to find the practical limits.

And as far as overclocking, I consider myself lucky to have found at least one limit. AND - I am prepared to have to replace the Pi 4 if I kill it.
And I do NOT plan to whine and complain and beg for warranty replacement i do! Some GIMP operations. Now all I probably should do do is write a little script to switch quickly between overclocked (for most use) and default (for GIMP and anything else we on the forum discover that causes an overload. After all, one of the purposes of Pi is 'tinkering' :-)
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bleep42
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:48 pm

RossDv8 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:32 pm
And as far as overclocking, I consider myself lucky to have found at least one limit. AND - I am prepared to have to replace the Pi 4 if I kill it.
And I do NOT plan to whine and complain and beg for warranty replacement i do! Some GIMP operations. Now all I probably should do do is write a little script to switch quickly between overclocked (for most use) and default (for GIMP and anything else we on the forum discover that causes an overload. After all, one of the purposes of Pi is 'tinkering' :-)

I'd frankly be surprised if you were unlucky enough not to be able to overclock at all. :-(
Simply start at default everything and increase the CPU frequency say 50Mhz at a time and test, using this GIMP case, when that fails, try increasing the voltage 1 step and try again, I usually find any more that +2 or 3 just creats extra heat/power consumption and is never reliable, so say +2 max, for reliable continuous operation, every 50MHz is about another 3%, any is usefull, if you need it.
Regards, Kevin.

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:04 pm

This DOHC port fuel injected 2.4L lotus designed engine hits rev limiter at 6300 rpm, However when they use these engines to durability test transmissions that limiter is removed and all day 24/7 runs between 6600 and 7200 rpm and they hold up in the test cell.... They hardly ever blow up. however ... the GM 6.0L engines would blow up all the time, not sure what rpm they were running those at though.
My 4gig Pi4 is very stable at 1950mhz though i am at Overvoltage6 and it makes alot of heat. So long as i keep the blower on it i can run it at 100% as much as i want and seems to work pretty great.
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:06 pm

RossDv8 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:32 pm
Now all I probably should do do is write a little script to switch quickly between overclocked (for most use) and default (for GIMP and anything else we on the forum discover that causes an overload. After all, one of the purposes of Pi is 'tinkering' :-)
Yes please, i'd love a copy of that if you can manage it. Or is it possible to write some code to make GIMP go a bit slower and use less resources instead of making the Pi switch clock speeds and voltages?

Having read these posts i quickly checked GIMP and mine crashes the Pi if i try to blur a large image. If i scale the image down first and blur it's fine. So it's just over a specific size of image its doing it.

At the end of the day, it's the only thing i've found on my 2ghz clocked pi that doesn't work. Which isn't a big issue as i can always use one of my other computers to do these tasks if i ever need to. I only rarely edit large images and am ok knowing that i need to use another of my computers to do so.

All in all, my continued experiments and getting used to using my Pi 4 as a desktop replacement for my current windows 7 living room computer is going really well and i'm extremely impressed with it. For £54 for the 4Gig model i think it's incredible what it can do.

And also very grateful for the help i've been given on these forums as this is my first Raspberry Pi. I've got the bug now and just ordered a Zero to play with.

Thanks all and keep on keeping on! :D
Honestly, i've no idea what i'm doing. :oops:

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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:08 pm

Thanks Kevin.
I certainly don't plan to discontinue experimenting. I did test 1750Mhz and 1850MHz at both default voltage, and the over_voltage=4. I didn;t check the =1, =2 and =3 though, and I checked with default GPU freq. There are noticeable speed differences at 2GHz overclock, but I think the actual 'feel' would be less noticeable at lower values, and that for me would de-feet the porpoise.

to 5t4n5
I suspect if I can get my brain functioning again, a little python script would let me switch easily between an overclocked or default config.txt (named config.clk and config.def for example). For that matter, a bash script and zenity (installed by default on Raspbian) would do it and present a popup dialog!

Then as I mentioned, if some program like GIMP, is falling over, run the script, and the Pi will rename one of the backup files as config.txt and reboot. Problem solvered and the full 2GHz overclock available for less demanding tasks.

That way I can have my Pi and eat it...
Until I cook it!
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