vol.2
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:32 pm

epoch1970 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:12 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:54 pm
vol.2 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:55 pm
Sure, the reason has been stated, and it makes perfect sense, but that didn't stop me from spending some hours trying to boot from and SSD like my last pi did out-of-the-box. ;)
I really hate to have to state this, but if you spent all that time trying to do USB boot with a Pi4B, it indicates that you didn't "do your homework" before making the attempt(s). It was no secret that this particular feature wasn't there at launch and that it would be some time before it was possible.
And I’d call that hubris.
Well, I see the snarky point you are trying to make here, but my response to it is embedded in my OP more clearly than the USB boot status was at launch. I know what the raspberry pi is, and I wasn't fooled into thinking it was a desktop computer. My wasted time is my own concern and I know that sometimes, when dealing with hobby projects, you have to wait for features or make mistakes to learn. However, I think it's not "crazy" that I assumed I would have more or less the same functionality out of the box as I did with the last pi, and that you (or anyone else) couldn't blame me for just trying it, let alone accusing me of hubris for my learning experience. It's not like I made some overly grandiose claims about what I could do or anything! ;)

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:31 pm

vol.2 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:32 pm
epoch1970 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:12 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:54 pm

I really hate to have to state this, but if you spent all that time trying to do USB boot with a Pi4B, it indicates that you didn't "do your homework" before making the attempt(s). It was no secret that this particular feature wasn't there at launch and that it would be some time before it was possible.
And I’d call that hubris.
Well, I see the snarky point you are trying to make here, but my response to it is embedded in my OP more clearly than the USB boot status was at launch. I know what the raspberry pi is, and I wasn't fooled into thinking it was a desktop computer. My wasted time is my own concern and I know that sometimes, when dealing with hobby projects, you have to wait for features or make mistakes to learn. However, I think it's not "crazy" that I assumed I would have more or less the same functionality out of the box as I did with the last pi, and that you (or anyone else) couldn't blame me for just trying it, let alone accusing me of hubris for my learning experience. It's not like I made some overly grandiose claims about what I could do or anything! ;)
I might have tried it, too. But between the time of the initial order and delivery, the word was pretty wide spread that the Pi4B didn't--yet!--do boot over USB.

thatchunkylad198966
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:37 pm

B.Goode wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:52 pm
Can I have / on the USB though? with PINN?


So I read the Release Notes to save you having to do it:
V2.3.1a
USB MSD - Supports installing to an external USB storage device
Ref: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... p?t=142574
(That's the post titled STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.)



Or you could just try it... then you'll know from first hand experience.
Yeah, thanks. I couldn't get it to work with PINN but I did with NOOBS. right now I have / on my USB3 external HDD and /boot on the SD.
It'll do for now.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:52 pm

k-pi wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:17 pm
Get it through your thick heads - this thread is about the RPi4 USB booting - I know how I could boot from a microSD card, I've booted from a microSD card - I don't want to!!!


I just want to boot from USB, on the RPi4, just like I do on my RPi3B/B+/A+
User was banned for 2 weeks for this post.

What part of "native USB booting is not yet implemented on Pi 4" is not understood? It's been explained to you multiple times, along with the current workaround (/boot on an SD card, which never gets touched after the firmware is done loading linux). At this point, you're just trolling.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:56 pm

vol.2 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:32 pm

Well, I see the snarky point you are trying to make here, but my response to it is embedded in my OP more clearly than the USB boot status was at launch. I know what the raspberry pi is, and I wasn't fooled into thinking it was a desktop computer. My wasted time is my own concern and I know that sometimes, when dealing with hobby projects, you have to wait for features or make mistakes to learn. However, I think it's not "crazy" that I assumed I would have more or less the same functionality out of the box as I did with the last pi, and that you (or anyone else) couldn't blame me for just trying it, let alone accusing me of hubris for my learning experience. It's not like I made some overly grandiose claims about what I could do or anything! ;)
You're replying to a 9-page thread on the subject, that was posted 4 days after the Pi 4's announcement. I highly doubt that you found the lack of native USB boot "surprising".
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vol.2
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:16 pm

jdb wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:56 pm
You're replying to a 9-page thread on the subject, that was posted 4 days after the Pi 4's announcement. I highly doubt that you found the lack of native USB boot "surprising".
I honestly did just get in the mail and try to get it going. I obviously should have checked online to find out what features was and wasn't working yet. Didn't mean to piss anyone off, I guess this thread got kinda negative awhile ago and I didn't really pour through the 9 pages.

bjtheone
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:43 pm

It is just that a bunch of folks have complained enthusiastically about the lack of "true" USB boot without coming up with any concrete reasons as to why they need USB boot (no SD card) versus just booting from the SD card with the entire root fs on USB storage. I suspect this has somewhat sensitized folks about the issue.

The only use cases that have any show stopper level of need that I have seen are corporate/school environments that dictate a particular standard (and in most of those, network boot is far more important, and thus being worked on first) and requiring the SD slot being available for sneaker netting data (which is more of a corner case, as sneaker neting SD cards is a pita due to size, support, requiring adaptors, etc. It may hold true for those that have all the USB ports consumed for other stuff, and not having a hub available). Of course, "because I want to" is a valid reason for wanting USB boot, but if that is all you have, then perhaps going down the hybrid boot path which gets you all the other advantages is a reasonable solution, until true USB boot is available.

I would think that considering external storage booting is advanced enough that it would put you into the more knowledgeable pi user group, and as such doing a bit of reading or poking about (which would make the status very apparent) is not an unreasonable expectation. The lack of USB booting at the moment is not a particularly closely held secret.

Andyroo

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:14 pm

Careful bjtheone - you’ll get banned for talking sense on the Internet!

Popcorn anyone?

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clicky
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:20 pm

...

And any of it, in this thread, would make any sense if amount of time or resources between the 'True' USB booting (it really sounds like a religion now) vs 'horrible hack with SD card' (exaggeration) is anyhow significantly different.

And yet, they are not. Nor is final result (whole root on USB storage).

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thagrol
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:42 am

clicky wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:20 pm
...

And any of it, in this thread, would make any sense if amount of time or resources between the 'True' USB booting (it really sounds like a religion now) vs 'horrible hack with SD card' (exaggeration) is anyhow significantly different.

And yet, they are not. Nor is final result (whole root on USB storage).
I've been saying that for a while.

It seems those that know and understand this don't ask for a "true" USB boot and just get one with it. Those who don't complain then throw tnatrums. Much link a three year old in the supermarket when denied chocolate.

I do, howeve, wish folks would stop refering to it as a "hybrid" boot. It's nothing of the sort. It's a normal boot that just happens to have /boot and / and different devices connected to different interfaces. Would you call a system with /boot on an IDE HDD and / on a SATA HDD a hybrid boot? There little practical difference between the two situations.

The other thing I don't get, is why those complaining are 1. so vocal, 2. so insistent (to the point of getting themselves banned) in their argument, 3. so unwilling to learn.

Whatever happened to "make do and mend"?
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:27 am

thagrol wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:42 am
...

....why those complaining are 1. so vocal, 2. so insistent (to the point of getting themselves banned) in their argument, 3. so unwilling to learn.
yup..... pretty much fit the pattern I've noticed as well.....
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

Some people be like:
"Help me! Am drowning! But dont you dare touch me nor come near me!"

dprees
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:16 pm

bjtheone wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:43 pm
The only use cases that have any show stopper level of need that I have seen are corporate/school environments...
Not wishing to add to the flames, so my post below is simply to set out the use case I have where USB boot on the RPi 4 would be of help to me. Quite happy to wait until it turns up, but there is a caveat to that: I have to hold off on buying RPi 4Bs for my classrooms until USB boot is available on the RPi 4B.

Why do I need USB boot from an external device without the need for a microSD card? If we were just starting with RPis for the first time, we wouldn't, but we have infrastructure around them already.

I teach Computing Science to pupils from age 11 up to age 18. We've been using RPis in classrooms for 2.5 years now. Initially we bought a couple of RPi 3Bs experimenting with microSD cards for each pupil.

In the classroom environment, we found the microSD cards to be problematic. No issues with reliability or performance, but they are so small that pilfering is potentially an issue, made worse by the fact that pupils often have smartphones which could use some extra storage--and a microSD card was perfect for that. MicroSDs are also very difficult to label, and impossibly easy to lose.

We also now maintain our own configured version of Raspbian, set up for our school with software we use, etc. Easily duplicated onto microSD, but the writing time is slow, and when one has 50+ to do, time does matter.

Since we wanted to allocate each pupil their own media device to hold their work, which they could use in any RPi in the classrooms, simply leaving microSD cards in the RPis wasn't possible.

Network storage might have been an answer -- had we been allowed by IT to attach a machine to the school network for that purpose. We weren't. So we went the external USB route, first trying USB flash drives (pen drives), but performance and reliability was dreadful. We then settled on to ultra-cheap and low-capacity SSDs connected via a SATA-USB cable. SSDs can be labelled, much harder to lose, are not really that much use to pupils (especially only 16Gb), and are both fast (especially to write our Raspbian variant), and reliable.

We added another set (22) of RPi 3B+, and they are in use in another classroom (less need to share the crate of RPis...).

In the future, we want more RPis, for at least one more classroom. The obvious choice now would be RPi 4Bs, but without the means of USB boot, these would not be interchangeable with the earlier RPis, and we would need both microSDs and SSDs to use them. The microSDs could just have /boot on them, and therefore not need to be taken out of the RPi 4Bs -- unless they "fall out", of course.

But going down the hybrid USB boot approach would require me to buy 66 microSD cards for all the RPis we have, since the other CS teachers are not going to be happy about doing things differently depending upon which RPis are inside the classroom they are using that lesson. Even at £3-4 each for a microSD card, in aggregate that's a sizeable sum for a school, and they would (hopefully) become redundant once USB boot is available for the RPi 4B. Once an established workflow is in place, amending it (or even improving it!) is always difficult to achieve.

Ours is a specialised use case, I would agree, but due to the circumstances I've set out, I can't see us being able to have RPi 4Bs in use in school for CS lessons quite yet.

So I'm not definitely NOT complaining, and I am happy to patiently wait for the developers to make USB boot availabe for the RPi 4B. But I thought setting out the issues we face at my school due to this temporary restriction might be of interest to someone.

On the plus side, I've now got our Raspbian version upgraded to Buster, with all the software we need (Scratch 3 desktop -- thank you!!!) and ready for use with our RPi 3B and 3B+, and one day soon this software will be on our new RPi 4Bs, too. RPis have been the best thing to happen for the teaching of CompSci for many a year; the pupils love them!

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:19 pm

thagrol wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:42 am
The other thing I don't get, is why those complaining are 1. so vocal, 2. so insistent (to the point of getting themselves banned) in their argument, 3. so unwilling to learn.
As the person who could best answer those questions has been temporarily banned, I'll do my best to present the other side of the story.

While performing the initial program load from SD card and mounting root on a USB drive works well, there are disadvantages that may be significant for large deployments of computers:
  • Because two storage devices are involved, the added complexity could decrease overall reliability by a factor of two.
  • For reliability super-cheap SD cards should be avoided. Consequently, the additional cost could add up.
I suspect the above considerations could be significant for people involved in Pi-based kiosks and possibly electronic signage that includes lots of video. It doesn't take much to imagine other kinds of large-scale deployments where single-device USB boot would also be useful.
Last edited by ejolson on Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:28 pm

dprees wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:16 pm
In the classroom environment, we found the microSD cards to be problematic. No issues with reliability or performance, but they are so small that pilfering is potentially an issue, made worse by the fact that pupils often have smartphones which could use some extra storage--and a microSD card was perfect for that. MicroSDs are also very difficult to label, and impossibly easy to lose.
That's a sad story about your students stealing the SD cards for their phones.

Have you thought about configuring an SD card to load a preliminary kernel that chain boots the one from the /boot partition on the USB drive in such a way that doesn't interfere with how the Pi 3B+ currently boots from the USB drive?

dprees
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:49 pm

ejolson wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:28 pm
dprees wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:16 pm
In the classroom environment, we found the microSD cards to be problematic. No issues with reliability or performance, but they are so small that pilfering is potentially an issue, made worse by the fact that pupils often have smartphones which could use some extra storage--and a microSD card was perfect for that. MicroSDs are also very difficult to label, and impossibly easy to lose.
That's a sad story about your students stealing the SD cards for their phones.

Have you thought about configuring an SD card to load a preliminary kernel that chain boots the one from the /boot partition on the USB drive in such a way that doesn't interfere with how the Pi 3B+ currently boots from the USB drive?
The pilfering issue only occurred once, right at the start of our use of RPis, and it *might* have been an accident -- microSD cards are tiny, fiddly to remove from RPis, and if dropped, can end up anywhere. Once I realised the problems with them, I looked for another solution before ramping up our use, hence the move to USB media. Perhaps I rushed that decision, but our USB media infrastructure and workflow is now in place, and changing it would be a lot of bother.

Having said all that, your technical tip is not one I knew about, and I'm very grateful for you mentioning it. Using it, I could go with only a single set of microSD cards, for new RPi 4Bs only. I could put some tape around the new Pis to enclose the microSD cards and stop them being removed...worth thinking about!

On balance, though, we'll likely wait until USB boot is available; we can manage with our existing RPis at least for this term. But I hope to be able to recommend we buy a set of RPi 4s before our budget period runs out...might need to add some microSDs to that order...

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:18 pm

dprees wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:16 pm
bjtheone wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:43 pm
The only use cases that have any show stopper level of need that I have seen are corporate/school environments...
Not wishing to add to the flames, so my post below is simply to set out the use case I have where USB boot on the RPi 4 would be of help to me. Quite happy to wait until it turns up, but there is a caveat to that: I have to hold off on buying RPi 4Bs for my classrooms until USB boot is available on the RPi 4B.
[Gory details elided for space reasons. --whh]
Yeah... Good use case. I would suggest a possible alternative that will be implemented sooner than USB booting. That is, get a router, not connected to the school network--so no issues there--and set up network booting. Biggest problem would be--so far as I know--that you'd have to run a LAN to all the Pis in the room, which would entail some switches, as well.

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thagrol
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:45 pm

ejolson wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:19 pm
thagrol wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:42 am
The other thing I don't get, is why those complaining are 1. so vocal, 2. so insistent (to the point of getting themselves banned) in their argument, 3. so unwilling to learn.
As the person who could best answer those questions has been temporarily banned, I'll do my best to present the other side of the story.

While performing the initial program load from SD card and mounting root on a USB drive works well, there are disadvantages that may be significant for large deployments of computers:
  • Because two storage devices are involved, the added complexity could decrease overall reliability by a factor of two.
  • For reliability super-cheap SD cards should be avoided. Consequently, the additional cost could add up.
I suspect the above considerations could be significant for people involved in Pi-based kiosks and possibly electronic signage that includes lots of video. It doesn't take much to imagine other kinds of large-scale deployments where single-device USB boot would also be useful.
Sure, those are rational arguments and valid reasons. Unfortunately, many of those demanding a pure USB boot aren't using them.

The predomination position of this stastically unrepresentative sample (folks posting in this thread and/or these forums) seems to boil down to "I want it and I want it now.", often combined with "nothing else will do coz this is what I want." And almost always without further justification as to why USB boot is needed other than "it worked on a Pi3".

I suspect those who are aware of the current limitation are either not yet moving to the 4B or working within the limits available to them. As for large deployments in comercial environments (e.g. kiosks and signage), I'd expect that suppliers of that hardware would still be in testing prior to rolling out upgrades. That's if they're not using CM based hardware.

Calm, rational argument with good reason for needing USB boot I have no problem with. Foot stamping, making unreasonable and unjustifable demands before throwing tantrums I do.

And yes, I know I'm making sweeping generisations so may have offended someone. Offending anyone is not my intent so please, accept an advanced apology for having done so.
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DougieLawson
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:04 pm

dprees wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:49 pm
ejolson wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:28 pm
dprees wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:16 pm
In the classroom environment, we found the microSD cards to be problematic. No issues with reliability or performance, but they are so small that pilfering is potentially an issue, made worse by the fact that pupils often have smartphones which could use some extra storage--and a microSD card was perfect for that. MicroSDs are also very difficult to label, and impossibly easy to lose.
That's a sad story about your students stealing the SD cards for their phones.

Have you thought about configuring an SD card to load a preliminary kernel that chain boots the one from the /boot partition on the USB drive in such a way that doesn't interfere with how the Pi 3B+ currently boots from the USB drive?
The pilfering issue only occurred once, right at the start of our use of RPis, and it *might* have been an accident -- microSD cards are tiny, fiddly to remove from RPis, and if dropped, can end up anywhere. Once I realised the problems with them, I looked for another solution before ramping up our use, hence the move to USB media. Perhaps I rushed that decision, but our USB media infrastructure and workflow is now in place, and changing it would be a lot of bother.

Having said all that, your technical tip is not one I knew about, and I'm very grateful for you mentioning it. Using it, I could go with only a single set of microSD cards, for new RPi 4Bs only. I could put some tape around the new Pis to enclose the microSD cards and stop them being removed...worth thinking about!

On balance, though, we'll likely wait until USB boot is available; we can manage with our existing RPis at least for this term. But I hope to be able to recommend we buy a set of RPi 4s before our budget period runs out...might need to add some microSDs to that order...
This is a case where sourcing a collection of tiny capacity old SDCards (get the kids to supply them for a $1 each) would make sense. You only need 256MB for Raspbian Buster. Tiny cards won't get stolen because they're not useful in a cellphone or GoPro or dashcam. They aren't written beyond adding the kernel and bootcode so they'll last forever.
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dprees
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:44 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:04 pm
This is a case where sourcing a collection of tiny capacity old SDCards (get the kids to supply them for a $1 each) would make sense. You only need 256MB for Raspbian Buster. Tiny cards won't get stolen because they're not useful in a cellphone or GoPro or dashcam. They aren't written beyond adding the kernel and bootcode so they'll last forever.
Dougie, thanks for the suggestion. Theoretically possible, but in practice it would take so much time and trouble to get such cards from the pupils it's not worth it. Particularly since I could not be sure I'd get enough to meet my need, at least in any reasonable time period.

Even the process of getting the school to make funds available to hand out 50p for each old microSD card would take considerable effort on my part -- far easier to spend money to buy 22 16Gb microSD cards (about £3.60 on Amazon.co.uk) , if only because the means to order such, and deduct from a budget, exists.

As a teacher, the time I have available for this is strictly limited -- mainly because it is MY own limited free time I'm using for this; I get no extra time or compensation from the school for setting all of these RPis up, or maintaining them--strictly a labour of love (I'm forever grateful the school has bought the RPis, which allow pupils to break away from the locked-down Windows environment on the school PCs).

The factor I was trying to bring out in my original post was that even though there are workarounds to the current lack of USB boot on the RPi 4B, when a relatively large number of RPis are already embedded into a workflow adopting a different approach can be quite difficult/expensive/time-consuming to do. What is feasible for one person, owning a couple of RPis, is not necessarily so for organisations using a fairly large number.

dprees
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:53 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:18 pm
Yeah... Good use case. I would suggest a possible alternative that will be implemented sooner than USB booting. That is, get a router, not connected to the school network--so no issues there--and set up network booting. Biggest problem would be--so far as I know--that you'd have to run a LAN to all the Pis in the room, which would entail some switches, as well.
I have managed to put together a separate network within CompSci, which connects to a couple of our classrooms, though not all (building layout and room allocation are issues in expanding it further). This was put in place following our extensive use of RPis, and after we moved to using USB media to boot them. Sadly, of course, network boot on the RPi 4B is not yet implemented, so even if I set up and configured a server for such, it would only assist with the earlier RPis. There is also the time element in setting up, testing and maintaining such a server to factor in.

Network boot is first on the RPi 4B boot "to do" list, I gather, but hopefully there will not be too long a delay after it is introduced before USB boot is available too. I'll wait patiently (honest!)

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:08 am

This is the reason Network booting is being worked on first before USB booting.
It was said in the video interviews 2? weeks ago it would take a month.
Pinet or whatever schools use removes the requirement for uSD cards which can go walking.

Sure switches and cables are a pain but keeping track of tiny uSD cards would surely be harder?
Even at the rate Pi4's are being made, it will take time for them to get to schools.
Double desktop configurations might take longer to sort out.

Not sure how schools organise Pi training, but by 2020 most of thee issues should be sorted.
2019 kids will just have to use the old ones?
Playing around with classroom configurations now would be good training for next year?
There is also the time element in setting up, testing and maintaining such a server to factor in.
Did the Raspbian x86 Desktop OS have this server builtin?
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clicky
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:00 pm

thagrol wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:42 am
I've been saying that for a while.

... Much link a three year old in the supermarket when denied chocolate.

...

The other thing I don't get, is why those complaining are 1. so vocal, 2. so insistent (to the point of getting themselves banned) in their argument, 3. so unwilling to learn.
It might be just generational. I was really positively surprised and genuinely excited when I got my first Linux distro (slackware) on 6 'A' floppies, 8 'D' floppies over 10 'X' floppy disks. Also, whom I would go and complain against lack of 'USB' boot? Oh, wait, I am not 100% sure USB was a thing those days... :roll:
thagrol wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:42 am
I do, howeve, wish folks would stop refering to it as a "hybrid" boot. It's nothing of the sort. It's a normal boot that just happens to have /boot and / and different devices connected to different interfaces. Would you call a system with /boot on an IDE HDD and / on a SATA HDD a hybrid boot? There little practical difference between the two situations.
:+1:

Maybe it is all, again, due to lack of understanding and wish to learn?

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clicky
Posts: 413
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:07 pm

dprees wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:16 pm

In the classroom environment, we found the microSD cards to be problematic. No issues with reliability or performance, but they are so small that pilfering is potentially an issue, made worse by the fact that pupils often have smartphones which could use some extra storage--and a microSD card was perfect for that. MicroSDs are also very difficult to label, and impossibly easy to lose.

...

Network storage might have been an answer -- had we been allowed by IT to attach a machine to the school network for that purpose. We weren't.
Of all people you have the most valid reason why USB boot would be really beneficial to you. :)

Shame about network solution - it would make perfect sense for completely separate segment of gigabit network to be created for RPis only - switch + a (Linux?) PC as network storage server and (potentially) a gateway. That way you would be able to maintain 'image' (a 'root' dir) plus separate user's 'home directories' locally. That would be nice project to set up, wouldn't it?

That way your RPis wouldn't be on the school network (or would through gateway if allowed) and still be able to boot from network. Also, it would be dead easy adding more RPis...

Oh, BTW, Pi3s and Pi4s as a 'desktop' - there's significant visible benefit of faster bus and more memory. It is shame not getting them and going with Pi3s instead.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:24 pm

thagrol wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:42 am
I do, howeve, wish folks would stop refering to it as a "hybrid" boot. It's nothing of the sort. It's a normal boot that just happens to have /boot and / and different devices connected to different interfaces. Would you call a system with /boot on an IDE HDD and / on a SATA HDD a hybrid boot? There little practical difference between the two situations.
Having the boot process start (once past either fixed--ROM--or reprogrammable--EEPROM--hardware attached to the PCB) with an SD card and then continue, and run, from a totally different class of mass storage (USB stick, SSD, or HDD) is rather too long to include every time one wishes to discuss the point. So it is "hybrid" in the sense of the boot-and-run processes crossing over different interface and device types.

One could describe an IDE-then-SATA boot process as "hybrid" as well, but since neither of those are native interfaces for a Pi, I think that concern is moot.

So, in the end, what short, convenient, and descriptive term of art would you prefer to use for the SD-card-then-USB-connected-MSD boot process other that "hybrid boot"?

And, to cool things down a bit, I will note that, while I prefer an exclusive boot from USB MSD for certain cases, I am in no particular hurry to get it. Plus, when the time comes to set up the systems on which I want to use it, if it is not available, I will use a hybrid boot until such time as it is available. I have, after, done that before. I will be mildly disappointed if USB boot isn't released by about 6 months from now, but it's not a "deal breaker" if it isn't. I would much rather have it late than have it working poorly.

epoch1970
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:44 pm

clicky wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:07 pm
Shame about network solution - it would make perfect sense for completely separate segment of gigabit network to be created for RPis only - switch + a (Linux?) PC as network storage server and (potentially) a gateway.
Or create a VLAN in an existing switch/network...
"S'il n'y a pas de solution, c'est qu'il n'y a pas de problème." Les Shadoks, J. Rouxel

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