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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:04 pm
by jamesh
echmain wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:30 pm
Sheesh, is there any way these "Pi 4 USB boot" threads can be shoved off to a separate forum? (on a separate web site...on a separate planet...)
This is that thread. I would move it offplanet, but Musk hasn't occupied Mars yet.

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:30 pm
by dickon
thagrol wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:28 pm
k-pi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:44 am
I've been using Linux & BSD as my computer O/S since 1999, my computers boot from internal disk, or external USB disks & pendrives - it is the normal way to boot a mainstream computer - only the RPi, & similar hobby boards, boots from a microSD card.
Nope.

First stage bootloader is in the Bios and/or UEFI partition. That looks for the OS's boot loader which can be on any storage media supported by both it and the motherboard. The OS's bootloader then loads the rest of the OS which can also be on any storage media supported by the hardware etc.
Actually, that's a good way to explain this: the uSD card is the ROM-based BIOS, just in a handy, easy to repair, removable form-factor. Bung a second-stage uBoot on it -- not sure if there's a Pi4 version of that yet, admittedly -- and you have all the usual abilities.

And as for being a serious user: I've been quite a serious user of these things since their initial release: the machines at that point neatly filled a very interesting hole in the market, and have been going from strength to strength ever since. I have never once booted or needed to boot a Pi from a USB device. I *do* want to boot my Pi 4 from network, but that's for ease of management, and integration with the rest of my network; ATM I have /boot mounted on the uSD card, and / over NFS as usual. Lets me snapshot the rootfs without trouble, but leaves /boot vulnerable; it also means that if I forget to regenerate the initrd after a kernel update, I have marginally more trouble fixing it than

Code: Select all

chroot /var/local/nfsroot/pi4
mkinitramfs -o /boot/initrd.gz $version
exit
and rebooting the Pi.

But yeah. USB? Not so much.

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:01 pm
by ejolson
dickon wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:30 pm
thagrol wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:28 pm
k-pi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:44 am
I've been using Linux & BSD as my computer O/S since 1999, my computers boot from internal disk, or external USB disks & pendrives - it is the normal way to boot a mainstream computer - only the RPi, & similar hobby boards, boots from a microSD card.
Nope.

First stage bootloader is in the Bios and/or UEFI partition. That looks for the OS's boot loader which can be on any storage media supported by both it and the motherboard. The OS's bootloader then loads the rest of the OS which can also be on any storage media supported by the hardware etc.
Actually, that's a good way to explain this: the uSD card is the ROM-based BIOS, just in a handy, easy to repair, removable form-factor. Bung a second-stage uBoot on it -- not sure if there's a Pi4 version of that yet, admittedly -- and you have all the usual abilities.

And as for being a serious user: I've been quite a serious user of these things since their initial release: the machines at that point neatly filled a very interesting hole in the market, and have been going from strength to strength ever since. I have never once booted or needed to boot a Pi from a USB device. I *do* want to boot my Pi 4 from network, but that's for ease of management, and integration with the rest of my network; ATM I have /boot mounted on the uSD card, and / over NFS as usual. Lets me snapshot the rootfs without trouble, but leaves /boot vulnerable; it also means that if I forget to regenerate the initrd after a kernel update, I have marginally more trouble fixing it than

Code: Select all

chroot /var/local/nfsroot/pi4
mkinitramfs -o /boot/initrd.gz $version
exit
and rebooting the Pi.

But yeah. USB? Not so much.
You don't need uboot. Instead load a preliminary Linux kernel from the SD card to set things up and then chain load the final Linux kernel from the USB drive.

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:02 pm
by k-pi
Separation of storage can be good practice from an admin and reliability pov.
On all my regular computers, I have a separate / & /home, sometimes /swap too, dependent on needs, it makes re installing &/or upgrading a reasonably simple process, unlike the Raspbian way of putting everything in one partition. 8-)

(Yes, I know that I can modify it to only take up a certain amount of disk space, but as it comes, it's just one big partition for the O/S & data files.)

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:13 pm
by thagrol
k-pi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:02 pm
Separation of storage can be good practice from an admin and reliability pov.
On all my regular computers, I have a separate / & /home, sometimes /swap too, dependent on needs, it makes re installing &/or upgrading a reasonably simple process, unlike the Raspbian way of putting everything in one partition. 8-)

(Yes, I know that I can modify it to only take up a certain amount of disk space, but as it comes, it's just one big partition for the O/S & data files.)
No seperate /var and /tmp? Hope your logs and temp files don't get too big ;)

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:29 pm
by W. H. Heydt
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:04 pm
echmain wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:30 pm
Sheesh, is there any way these "Pi 4 USB boot" threads can be shoved off to a separate forum? (on a separate web site...on a separate planet...)
This is that thread. I would move it offplanet, but Musk hasn't occupied Mars yet.
Well... Off Topic, Bare Metal, or Wanted come to mind as possibilities....

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:33 pm
by jcyr
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:04 pm
echmain wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:30 pm
Sheesh, is there any way these "Pi 4 USB boot" threads can be shoved off to a separate forum? (on a separate web site...on a separate planet...)
This is that thread. I would move it offplanet, but Musk hasn't occupied Mars yet.
Last I heard, he wanted to nuke it!

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:36 pm
by LTolledo
Still whining about this? :shock:

yeah I also think this topic is becoming a nuisance and agree that it be moved...." to another to another website on another planet"..... on another dimension.... 8-)

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:53 pm
by pi-tastic
you guys know that noobs allows you to install right to a usb device right?

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:06 pm
by B.Goode
pi-tastic wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:53 pm
you guys know that noobs allows you to install right to a usb device right?


Details and documentation please.

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:30 pm
by k-pi
thagrol wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:13 pm
No seperate /var and /tmp? Hope your logs and temp files don't get too big ;)
Never will, I'm a user, not a server admin. 8-)

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:46 pm
by thagrol
pi-tastic wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:53 pm
you guys know that noobs allows you to install right to a usb device right?
Tried that on a 4B yet?

And to misquote your(?) own argument what serious user uses Noobs?

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:47 pm
by thagrol
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:36 pm
Still whining about this? :shock:

yeah I also think this topic is becoming a nuisance and agree that it be moved...." to another to another website on another planet"..... on another dimension.... 8-)
There's a simple answer to that...

unsubscribe and stop reading this thread :D

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:55 pm
by LTolledo
thagrol wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:47 pm
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:36 pm
Still whining about this? :shock:

yeah I also think this topic is becoming a nuisance and agree that it be moved...." to another to another website on another planet"..... on another dimension.... 8-)
There's a simple answer to that...

unsubscribe and stop reading this thread :D
...and miss all the fun here? no way! :D
and yeah I tend to skip reading some that I tag as "nuisance threads",
but sometimes do take a peek on its "developments"....specially if the mods dived in. if mods don't, then I skip it. ;)

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:21 pm
by hippie403
thagrol wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:46 pm
pi-tastic wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:53 pm
you guys know that noobs allows you to install right to a usb device right?
Tried that on a 4B yet?

And to misquote your(?) own argument what serious user uses Noobs?
I installed NOOBS on a old 4GB micro SD I had lying around. Plugged in a USB3 SSD to my Pi4 and selected it as the drive to install on. /boot ends up on the micro SD, root on the SSD, boots and works fine no tinkering required. Some serious users use NOOBS, you know, like for convenience?

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:55 pm
by W. H. Heydt
LTolledo wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:36 pm
Still whining about this? :shock:

yeah I also think this topic is becoming a nuisance and agree that it be moved...." to another to another website on another planet"..... on another dimension.... 8-)
As long as it can be kept civil and stay confined to one thread, it's probably tolerable. Unfortunately, locking would probably result in a new thread popping up within a week.

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:58 am
by Gavinmc42
Keep this thread open, then if another one starts, point them to this one :lol:

It is interesting the diversity of opinions about Pi's from the new and old users.
We should tolerate diversity - so we keep getting told over and over ;)

I do draw the line at a "serious user" leaving their Pi4 in the box until USB boot is working.
That is just wrong..... in my opinion.



.

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:19 am
by jamesh
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:58 am
That is just wrong..... in my opinion.
And mine, smacks of cutting of nose to spite face.

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:26 am
by davidcoton
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:58 am
I do draw the line at a "serious user" leaving their Pi4 in the box until USB boot is working.
That is just wrong..... in my opinion.
harwoodr wrote:All serious users need this facility
It is just wrong (and rude) to suggest that users who do not need pure USB boot are not serious users. :evil:
k-pi wrote: So, until the RPi4B gets its 'fix', it'll stay in its box
Maybe @k-pi is a "serious non-user" :lol:

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:41 am
by PeterO
jamesh wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:19 am
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:58 am
That is just wrong..... in my opinion.
And mine, smacks of cutting of nose to spite face.
OI ! That's my line :lol:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 0#p1522461

PeterO

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:52 am
by epoch1970
k-pi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:02 pm
On all my regular computers, I have a separate / & /home, sometimes /swap too, dependent on needs, it makes re installing &/or upgrading a reasonably simple process, unlike the Raspbian way of putting everything in one partition. 8-)
I rarely use a /swap directory, and wouldn’t touch a windows extended partition with a 10-ft pole.
But I’m just an ex- serious user...

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:06 am
by k-pi
davidcoton wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:26 am
Maybe @k-pi is a "serious non-user" :lol:

Never said that I was a serious RPi user
, so do get your facts right, I just have a few to 'test the water' to see how good an arm based computer is/will be, as against Intel/AMD.

So far, I'm only trying out the RPi because it's British & easily available, no other reason - I'm not a 'fan boy' of them. :roll:

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:58 pm
by jamesh
k-pi wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:06 am
davidcoton wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:26 am
Maybe @k-pi is a "serious non-user" :lol:

Never said that I was a serious RPi user
, so do get your facts right, I just have a few to 'test the water' to see how good an arm based computer is/Will be, as against Intel/AMD.

So far, I'm only trying out the RPi because it's British & easily available, no other reason - I'm not a 'fan boy' of them. :roll:
Confused, you've bought one to try out, but cannot be bothered to plug in an SD card and actually use it? Or have you tried it but for reasons that elude many, cannot continue to try it out without USB boot? Surely the best approach is to run with SD card until USB boot is available? What specifically is it about running from an SD card is it that stopping you continuing to try it out? After all, running from SD is what the vast majority of users do with no problems whatsoever.

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:31 pm
by epoch1970
k-pi wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:06 am
So far, I'm only trying out the RPi because it's British & easily available, no other reason
I remember trying fish and chips. Simpler times :)

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:42 pm
by mattmiller
I installed NOOBS on a old 4GB micro SD I had lying around. Plugged in a USB3 SSD to my Pi4 and selected it as the drive to install on. /boot ends up on the micro SD, root on the SSD, boots and works fine no tinkering required.
Bloomin heck - finally NOOBS has a use #WhoKnew :)