jamesh
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:56 pm

Having two different display connectors on the board for the same display type (HDMI) would be insane. Both from a users point of view, and a manufacturing point of view.
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:53 am

Once 200/300 quid TV's are all using USB-C or DisplayPort for 5 years then might be the time to switch over as they'll likely be in the home of a good number of houses (probably 10 years and you'll have most houses)

£180 is a lot for a monitor, unless you have a specific need for that price range, not in the Office normally.

Aliexpress has adaptors for ~$1 or short cables adaptors for a bit more which may be easier for the idea below.

The answer is, just stick and adaptor in a Pi case, or tape one to it, don't forget it if the Pi is that essential.
OR Buy a Pi3B+ and take that as a spare.

chithanh
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:59 am

jamesh wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:56 pm
Having two different display connectors on the board for the same display type (HDMI) would be insane. Both from a users point of view, and a manufacturing point of view.
Ok, but are there good arguments against dual upright HDMI connectors? Z height maybe?
bensimmo wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:53 am
Once 200/300 quid TV's are all using USB-C or DisplayPort for 5 years then might be the time to switch over
But I do not suggest that they "switch over". I would have preferred to keep the (full size) HDMI connector. USB-C I only brought up in discussing what the second display connector could be, and it was already found infeasible due to cost and the BCM2711.
bensimmo wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:53 am
Aliexpress has adaptors for ~$1 or short cables adaptors for a bit more which may be easier for the idea below.

The answer is, just stick and adaptor in a Pi case, or tape one to it, don't forget it if the Pi is that essential.
OR Buy a Pi3B+ and take that as a spare.
I am precisely talking about how it used to be really, really fantastic with previous models that any planning ahead how to connect the Pi could be foregone. Just take the bare board, and you can connect it with whatever is already there, and start computing. Because everything that the Pi 1-3 uses (microUSB charging, HDMI display, microSD storage, USB keyboard/mouse) is ubiquitous even in remote places.

Now this fantastic ability is compromised.
Is it only a minor inconvenience for urban dwellers in developed countries? Sure.
Is it still workable with some preparation even for non-urban areas in less developed countries? Sure.
Am I happy with that change? No.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:11 am

I am precisely talking about how it used to be really, really fantastic with previous models that any planning ahead how to connect the Pi could be foregone. Just take the bare board, and you can connect it with whatever is already there, and start computing.


Using rose-tinted glasses to give a comforting glow to the scene in your rear view mirror isn't convincing.

Rewind 7 years and you will find lots of grumbling in these forums and in other #EdTech places from teachers whose schools had no spare HDMI monitors but lots of VGA displays, and no spare usb keyboards but cupboards full of ps/2 ones..

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:22 am

chithanh wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:59 am
Ok, but are there good arguments against dual upright HDMI connectors? Z height maybe?
Yes the height of two stacked normal sized HDMI ports, with height space for the plugs between the two would make the PI excessively higher.
Such connectors are typically 18mm high, and 18mm deep, so they also take an excessive amount of boardspace.

to top it off they are probably also much more expensive, and do not fit within the $35 budget

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1846219.pdf

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:23 am

B.Goode,
Rewind 7 years and you will find lots of grumbling in these forums and in other #EdTech places from teachers whose schools had no spare HDMI monitors but lots of VGA displays, and no spare usb keyboards but cupboards full of ps/2 ones..
Yes, exactly.

I don't recall that I complained but it was terrible back then. I had to go out and buy a monitor with HDMI capability, the HDMI cable, a USB mouse and keyboard and a power adapter. Not to mention all te WiFi dongles I had needed replacing as I could not get any of them to work with Raspbian. Oh, and the SD cards.

Now it's even worse. I have to go out and buy two HDMI monitors and two micro-HDMI cables. I need to find something to deliver power over USB C, whatever that is.

After all that I don't even get a 64 bit OS without jumping through hoops.

You just can't win :)

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:30 am

B.Goode wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:11 am
Rewind 7 years and you will find lots of grumbling in these forums and in other #EdTech places from teachers whose schools had no spare HDMI monitors but lots of VGA displays, and no spare usb keyboards but cupboards full of ps/2 ones..
I am not saying that you could grab any old trash, and expect that to connect and work with the Pi. I am just saying that HDMI and USB products are readily available in shops everywhere. And yes, that was the case even in 2012, and is still true today. Btw. HD Ready campaign launched in 2005, from that time on the majority of TVs were produced with HDMI.

chithanh
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:38 am

mahjongg wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:22 am
chithanh wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:59 am
Ok, but are there good arguments against dual upright HDMI connectors? Z height maybe?
Yes the height of two stacked normal sized HDMI ports, with height space for the plugs between the two would make the PI excessively higher.
Such connectors are typically 18mm high, and 18mm deep, so they also take an excessive amount of boardspace.
The stacked HDMI have been rejected already due to torque and other issues.

I was talking about two upright HDMI connectors like this one:
http://www.morethanall.com/products/ind ... 77/id/2117
https://antenk01.manufacturer.globalsou ... ectors.htm

jamesh
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:07 pm

chithanh wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:38 am
mahjongg wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:22 am
chithanh wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:59 am
Ok, but are there good arguments against dual upright HDMI connectors? Z height maybe?
Yes the height of two stacked normal sized HDMI ports, with height space for the plugs between the two would make the PI excessively higher.
Such connectors are typically 18mm high, and 18mm deep, so they also take an excessive amount of boardspace.
The stacked HDMI have been rejected already due to torque and other issues.

I was talking about two upright HDMI connectors like this one:
http://www.morethanall.com/products/ind ... 77/id/2117
https://antenk01.manufacturer.globalsou ... ectors.htm
Those also raise the board height by 2 to 3mm. Also quite deep intrusion in to the board real estate, so I suspect routing would be very difficult. The micro connectors are surface mount, very small, robust (in my experience so far), so checked all the boxes. Yes, the cables are less common - but won't stay less common for long as market penetration increases.
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:01 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:23 am
B.Goode,
Rewind 7 years and you will find lots of grumbling in these forums and in other #EdTech places from teachers whose schools had no spare HDMI monitors but lots of VGA displays, and no spare usb keyboards but cupboards full of ps/2 ones..
Yes, exactly.

I don't recall that I complained but it was terrible back then. I had to go out and buy a monitor with HDMI capability, the HDMI cable, a USB mouse and keyboard and a power adapter. Not to mention all te WiFi dongles I had needed replacing as I could not get any of them to work with Raspbian. Oh, and the SD cards.

Now it's even worse. I have to go out and buy two HDMI monitors and two micro-HDMI cables. I need to find something to deliver power over USB C, whatever that is.

After all that I don't even get a 64 bit OS without jumping through hoops.

You just can't win :)
I assume you would have grumbled about no tape reader and not the compact cassette type ;-)

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:31 pm

Don't get me started.

I still have figured out where the patch cords go to program the damn thing !

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:40 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:31 pm
Don't get me started.

I still have figured out where the patch cords go to program the damn thing !
They're on the other side of the board from the paper tape reader.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:45 pm

chithanh wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:30 am
B.Goode wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:11 am
Rewind 7 years and you will find lots of grumbling in these forums and in other #EdTech places from teachers whose schools had no spare HDMI monitors but lots of VGA displays, and no spare usb keyboards but cupboards full of ps/2 ones..
I am not saying that you could grab any old trash, and expect that to connect and work with the Pi. I am just saying that HDMI and USB products are readily available in shops everywhere. And yes, that was the case even in 2012, and is still true today. Btw. HD Ready campaign launched in 2005, from that time on the majority of TVs were produced with HDMI.
I don't think I saw an HDMI TV or monitor until quite a few years after I got my first Pi - which I connected to a monitor via a composite to VGA convertor. I do now have one monitor with HDMI/DVI/VGA inputs and a "full HD" TV with HDMI inputs. But none of the PCs I use away from home have HDMI monitors. All are VGA with option for DVI inputs. Maybe one day they'll get upgraded.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:50 pm

And my only spare monitor at the moment is HDMI.

Except it isn't. It has a Display Port socket. Thus requiring yet another adapter before I can make use of it.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:28 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:23 am
You just can't win :)
That's the First Law of Thermodynamics.

The Second Law is: You can't even break even.

The Third is: You can't get out of the game, or alternatively, you don't know what the rules of the game are.

And around my household, there is a Fourth Law: Everything takes longer and costs more. That one is violated by computer hardware.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:31 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:50 pm
And my only spare monitor at the moment is HDMI.
I have very few HDMI monitors. However, I have lots of them with DVI-D input, and that's just a cable away for any Pi prior to the Pi4B. Now it's just an adapter away. I have some adapters already. I plan to get more, so that there is always one to hand when I need it.
Except it isn't. It has a Display Port socket. Thus requiring yet another adapter before I can make use of it.
As I understand it, the recent version of DP is compatible with HDMI 2.0. And--funnily enough--the Pi4B output is HDMI 2.0.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:31 pm

W. H. Heydt,
As I understand it, the recent version of DP is compatible with HDMI 2.0.
That is good to hear.

But still I need to find a cable/adapter to even connect that not so new DELL monitor to anything I have, PC's have HDMI, DVI, VGA. Now Pi has micro-HDMI.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:55 am

Digital disruption guys better get used to it.
Yes some of us have lived with it for 50+ years and we are not quite certifiable yet ;)

I did order two micro HDMI cables at the same time.
Forgot the microUSB to USB-C adaptor, had 4B1 for nearly a day before I could use it :(
Now have third tiny Clip-it snack box of adaptor bits, problem solved.
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:08 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:07 pm
chithanh wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:38 am
I was talking about two upright HDMI connectors like this one:
http://www.morethanall.com/products/ind ... 77/id/2117
https://antenk01.manufacturer.globalsou ... ectors.htm
Those also raise the board height by 2 to 3mm.
I would have gladly accepted those 2-3 mm in exchange for the ability to use HDMI cables directly without adapter.
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:07 pm
Also quite deep intrusion in to the board real estate, so I suspect routing would be very difficult.
Are we talking about "an engineer needs to look hard at this problem for a week" difficult, or "need to increase PCB length by 2 mm or add an extra PCB layer" difficult?

From cursory glance at the top and bottom of the PCB, it seems that not much is going on in that area anyway, apart from traces that go to the Micro HDMI connectors (I can't tell about the layers in between obviously).
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:07 pm
Yes, the cables are less common - but won't stay less common for long as market penetration increases.
Dunno, that sounds rather optimistic to me, given that the computer industry is moving into the opposite direction. Micro HDMI was never really popular to begin with, and has become pretty rare in 2018 and 2019 notebooks and tablets.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:21 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:31 pm
As I understand it, the recent version of DP is compatible with HDMI 2.0. And--funnily enough--the Pi4B output is HDMI 2.0.
If you're talking about DP++ then that is only for DP sources. A DP++ source has the ability of reconfiguring itself to output a HDMI signal. A DP sink on a monitor still can't accept HDMI.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:38 pm

I guess I must be insane then @jamesh :-)

I (and I suspect 80+%) of users will plug 1 monitor into their Pis for the vast majority of use cases. That would have saved buying a new cable because I had boxes of the full size one in my hoarding cavern.

For my (insane) tastes - the nicest solution would have been a full size on port 0 and a mini for port 1..... End of the world? nope - just means I now have 2 cables (USB-C and mini HDMI) which I (currently) can't use on any of my other equipment.

All part of lifes' rich tapestry.

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:04 pm

OMG!
Should I start to cry because I have a box full of composite/VGA and DVI cables (not to mention SCART) and can no longer use them? No, I don't! I welcome the possibility for connecting two displays at the same time, even if it will cost me 10GBP in addition (5GPB per official microHDMI cable.

Did someone of you argue against Samsung/Huawei and all the other smartphone manufactureres when they made the transition from microUSB to USB-C? I also have tons of mini-USB cables as well ... add them to old Apple dock connector, microUSB (which can be still put to good use) etc..

Maybe I should also blaim someone for inventing DECT standard for cordless phones ... because I have tons of RJ'can't remeber which standard it is ' cables as well

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:11 pm

micro hdmi to hdmio https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32866547894.html
but 2 output gives VR a good starter for 10
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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:44 pm

For those with only a DVI-D connection on the monitor they are using for their Pi, here is an inexpensive adapter that provides a conversion to HDMI-female. https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2081

Monoprice also has a good price on their 10-foot micro to full size HDMI connector cables.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=7559

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Re: Reasoning behind dual Micro HDMI, and potential future alternatives?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:48 pm

b3lt3r wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:38 pm
For my (insane) tastes - the nicest solution would have been a full size on port 0 and a mini for port 1..... End of the world? nope - just means I now have 2 cables (USB-C and mini HDMI) which I (currently) can't use on any of my other equipment.

All part of lifes' rich tapestry.
Unfortunately, there isn't enough room for that.
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